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@ CCP, why do you have rules that you refuse to enforce?
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#1 - 2011-12-13 17:50:55 UTC
CCP wrote:
Grief play
What is grief play?
Griefing
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


Its counterproductive to your game, and its costing you a lot of money. You have never enforced this policy yet you retain it, it is very confusing. Is it simply the cost of enforcing it? Or apathy? Or did you just print that to bait people into subbing, with them thinking "EvE can't be as harsh as people say if blatant griefing is against the rules". Or do you plan on enforcing it someday? Just wondering why a company would allow itself to hemorrhage money like that, especially after this summer.

Eagerly waiting your response, also eagerly awaiting griefer replies telling me what a bad poster I am and how what they do is either justified or not griefing.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2 - 2011-12-13 17:52:10 UTC
Did you report someone for can-baiting noobs?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#3 - 2011-12-13 17:54:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
I'm pretty sure CCP bans can baiters in noobie systems and doesn't ignore them.
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-12-13 17:56:07 UTC
oxytopes at 1500, the bad thread index is spiking across the forums, it's a crisis of market democracy~

~hi~
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-12-13 17:57:06 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
oxytopes at 1500, the bad thread index is spiking across the forums, it's a crisis of market democracy~


market democracy ??? heh.. Big smile
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-12-13 17:59:21 UTC
yes you found the joke within the joke it was well-hidden indeed, hi5

~hi~
Prince Kobol
#7 - 2011-12-13 18:04:29 UTC
Just replied to you in an other thread but since you have created this one I will repeat my post.

If you are ganked once and then return to the same spot minutes later and then ganked a 2nd time and then go back to same spot again you are asking for trouble.

If you are ganked and go back out to a different spot then ganked again, go back out to a different system and then ganked again each time by the same person then yes, you might and I emphasis might have a case.

Problem is since ganking is a approved game mechanic and is perfectly legal how can it be considered griefing?

Lets take the Goons Ice Interdiction as an example.

Somebody is ganked 3 times in a week. As a result they claim that they are being subjected to grief play as they are being stopped in a activity they enjoy.

What happens?

Another example, Say you want to force somebody out of your system for what ever reason, they could be supplying your quite little system with goods and the competition is hurting your profits.

This person is in a NPC corp.. your only method of hurting this person is to gank him with the hope that after he loses a couple of haulers loaded with goods he goes else where.

So if you target this person and repeatedly gank him.. is this grief play?

You are War Dec'd and they are using a neut alt in a NPC Corp. So you decided when ever you see this person you will gank them.

Is this grief play?

What happens if 2 people take a dislike to each other in low sec and one person makes it his mission to follow and to destroy the other person as many times as possible and this results in say 5 kills in a few hours, all in low sec, and every time they see this person in low sec they go for the kill.. is this grief play?l

The person is quite clearly is going out of there way to kill the other person but because its in low sec is it considered ok?

Grief play is very difficult, almost impossible to police when all people are doing is using approved in game mechanics.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#8 - 2011-12-13 18:04:58 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
yes you found the joke within the joke it was well-hidden indeed, hi5


The obvious joke being that you think you've created a crisis. You ****** with the market a little, you made your friends in PL richer IRL...

Its like if Shemp Howard was Napoleon.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Vachir Khan
Rugged Ruff and Ready
#9 - 2011-12-13 18:14:43 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I'm pretty sure CCP bans can baiters in noobie systems and doesn't ignore them.


They don't, there's folks about the obvious systems who's whole corp does nothing but mess with newbies like that, have been for a long time and continue to do it. They use all kinds of "ingenious" logic such as "I merely take their ore and then fly away, I'm not baiting them at all but if one of them shoots me I have to defend myself ofcourse". I mean, if you can flip ppl go for it but don't use dumb reasoning like that, and don't do it in newbie systems.
Goose99
#10 - 2011-12-13 18:15:11 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
CCP wrote:
Grief play
What is grief play?
Griefing
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items in front of a station in a starter system and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in starter tutorial complexes is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


Its counterproductive to your game, and its costing you a lot of money. You have never enforced this policy yet you retain it, it is very confusing. Is it simply the cost of enforcing it? Or apathy? Or did you just print that to bait people into subbing, with them thinking "EvE can't be as harsh as people say if blatant griefing is against the rules". Or do you plan on enforcing it someday? Just wondering why a company would allow itself to hemorrhage money like that, especially after this summer.

Eagerly waiting your response, also eagerly awaiting griefer replies telling me what a bad poster I am and how what they do is either justified or not griefing.


The average Eve subscription length is 6 month. It takes 6 month for noobies to find this out, silly.Cool

CCP clearly want 6 month as opposed to 0. Enforcing griefing rules would obviously not be an option, since internet spaceships are serious stuff, and the Goons must be appeased.Big smile
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#11 - 2011-12-13 18:15:42 UTC
Quote:
Problem is since ganking is a approved game mechanic and is perfectly legal how can it be considered griefing?


Because the definition that CCP posted directly states that it is.

1. Devoting a large amount of time.
2. Malicious.
3. not profiting.

Meets all of the conditions set by CCP. No where in the definition does it say the griefers mechanic has to be an exploit.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
mkint
#12 - 2011-12-13 18:16:09 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
oxytopes at 1500, the bad thread index is spiking across the forums, it's a crisis of market democracy~

aww, look at CCP's favorite RMTer thinking everything's about him. Ain't it special.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Shad0wsFury
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-12-13 18:18:56 UTC
You sound mad.

Are you mad?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2011-12-13 18:20:45 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
yes you found the joke within the joke it was well-hidden indeed, hi5


The obvious joke being that you think you've created a crisis. You ****** with the market a little, you made your friends in PL richer IRL...

Its like if Shemp Howard was Napoleon.


i know pl is a bunch of horrid pubbies but i don't think they've decended yet to the level of mining ice

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#15 - 2011-12-13 18:22:37 UTC
Shad0wsFury wrote:
You sound mad.

Are you mad?



And you sound like you went to Penn State, and want us to be as mad as you, but we aren't.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#16 - 2011-12-13 18:26:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
Vachir Khan wrote:
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I'm pretty sure CCP bans can baiters in noobie systems and doesn't ignore them.


They don't, there's folks about the obvious systems who's whole corp does nothing but mess with newbies like that, have been for a long time and continue to do it. They use all kinds of "ingenious" logic such as "I merely take their ore and then fly away, I'm not baiting them at all but if one of them shoots me I have to defend myself ofcourse". I mean, if you can flip ppl go for it but don't use dumb reasoning like that, and don't do it in newbie systems.


I assume you've reported them to CCP, since you've obviously been stalking them and asked for their reasons for doing it. Their logic is irrelevant though, if their actions fall in to the griefing area. That said what you describe is can-flipping and not can-baiting, and it's not what the OPs quote describes. Just in case you don't know the difference, can-baiting noobs is more like dropping a can in a starter system and naming it "free stuff" then killing any noob stupid enough to take something out of it. Quite different from can-flipping and even it is OK outside starter systems.

Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
Problem is since ganking is a approved game mechanic and is perfectly legal how can it be considered griefing?


Because the definition that CCP posted directly states that it is.

1. Devoting a large amount of time.
2. Malicious.
3. not profiting.

Meets all of the conditions set by CCP. No where in the definition does it say the griefers mechanic has to be an exploit.


As said can-baiting noobs in starter systems is griefing, since it actually meets those criteria. The goon campaign in the ice fields on the other hand is clearly not, since they are doing it for resource denial and profit from it. It does cause severe sandy vaginas individually and therefore grief, but objectively it seems to be outside the rule you've quoted and therefore can't be considered greifing as CCP defines it.

CCPs rules and definitions are the ones that decide the issue and it must always remain so, since going by individual feelings of grief can't be enforcable in a reliable and predictable way that a rule needs to be. I'm not asking you to like CCPs interpretation or agree with it, but that's the only one that matters and IMO is better for EVE and the sandbox, than what you seem to be suggesting.
Shad0wsFury
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-12-13 18:30:53 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Shad0wsFury wrote:
You sound mad.

Are you mad?



And you sound like you went to Penn State, and want us to be as mad as you, but we aren't.


And you sound like an ice miner getting repeatedly 0wned by goons. GF m8.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2011-12-13 18:35:09 UTC
I want to hear others too. So i can make witty responses about how someone "sound" StraightCry
mkint
#19 - 2011-12-13 18:49:13 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Vachir Khan wrote:
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I'm pretty sure CCP bans can baiters in noobie systems and doesn't ignore them.


They don't, there's folks about the obvious systems who's whole corp does nothing but mess with newbies like that, have been for a long time and continue to do it. They use all kinds of "ingenious" logic such as "I merely take their ore and then fly away, I'm not baiting them at all but if one of them shoots me I have to defend myself ofcourse". I mean, if you can flip ppl go for it but don't use dumb reasoning like that, and don't do it in newbie systems.


I assume you've reported them to CCP, since you've obviously been stalking them and asked for their reasons for doing it. Their logic is irrelevant though, if their actions fall in to the griefing area. That said what you describe is can-flipping and not can-baiting, and it's not what the OPs quote describes. Just in case you don't know the difference, can-baiting noobs is more like dropping a can in a starter system and naming it "free stuff" then killing any noob stupid enough to take something out of it. Quite different from can-flipping and even it is OK outside starter systems.

Cipher Jones wrote:
Quote:
Problem is since ganking is a approved game mechanic and is perfectly legal how can it be considered griefing?


Because the definition that CCP posted directly states that it is.

1. Devoting a large amount of time.
2. Malicious.
3. not profiting.

Meets all of the conditions set by CCP. No where in the definition does it say the griefers mechanic has to be an exploit.


As said can-baiting noobs in starter systems is griefing, since it actually meets those criteria. The goon campaign in the ice fields on the other hand is clearly not, since they are doing it for resource denial and profit from it. It does cause severe sandy vaginas individually and therefore grief, but objectively it seems to be outside the rule you've quoted and therefore can't be considered greifing as CCP defines it.

CCPs rules and definitions are the ones that decide the issue and it must always remain so, since going by individual feelings of grief can't be enforcable in a reliable and predictable way that a rule needs to be. I'm not asking you to like CCPs interpretation or agree with it, but that's the only one that matters and IMO is better for EVE and the sandbox, than what you seem to be suggesting.

It sounds to me like the key question is that of profitability. That being the case, the accused individual should be required to prove that they have profited from it. If the individual was paid to do it, the accuser has a right to know who paid them for it, so they can accuse them and have them investigated. No individual, corporation, or alliances should be immune to investigation.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-12-13 18:50:32 UTC
Its an game...
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