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Dev blog: All That Is Gold Does Not Glitter - Data Sites, Expeditions

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Schluffi Schluffelsen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#181 - 2014-10-16 18:10:43 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Fonac wrote:

I've sometimes done 30+ jumps, in order to do a chain, sometimes over different regions.
Simply to much work, compared to doing a simple ded site, where you dont have to move an inch'

You can always expect to be brought to a different region, when you're doing non ded sites, i'm not sure what this accomplish, other than being a pain, since these sites tend to do way way more time than they should.(especially compared to the loot they give)

So.. Maybe change the mechanics, so we can expect to stay in the region?


We're currently in talks regarding the Escalation distances. If anything changes we'll let you know.

Update: Escalation jump distances have been reduced from 4 to 20 systems (min / max) down to 2 to 10.


Could you take a look at escalations in general, for example fleet staging points and other escalations that take you to 3-5 different locations? 30 - 50 Jumps away is still a f... really long way from home in shiney ships. Just saying, would make more sense to compress these escalations in 1-2 different locations, add randomness, difficulty and adjust loot tables.

In general my comment to Relic/Data Sites and making it more profitable. Just add rats again, problem solved. You nerfed my favourite thing in Eve into oblivion and total mind numbing, dread looking empty sites with a minigame. No skill needed. Keep the minigame, add some content and difficulty again! Just my 2 cents on this.
Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2014-10-16 18:21:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Arcos Vandymion
Spugg Galdon wrote:
How about this:

Release your PvE content design tools and let the community design some missions and anomalies and expeditions and all that stuff for you. Then you simply test it and if it works/isn't broken to simply be an isk faucet, release that player made PvE content. This way you get stacks of new PvE content made for you!!


Because as far as I can recall these tools don't exist. As in CCP just recently realized that a modular approach saves a lot of time (see Space Object Factory). With such a tool what you'd have to start with is to create actuall loadouts for ships in my oppinion. This is not only limited by limitless capacitor (which would put contraints on NPC tanking for example), abilities that are out of capsuleer reach (75 km web on a drone (why are npc mission webbingdrones looking like T2 Vespas?)) or the lack of actuall hull layouts (that say a blood raider ship that looks like an executioner allways ahs the same slot layout/pg/cpu ou of which you could create loadouts) but also by the lack of any sort of AI. Yes there are decisions being made but those are generally not intelligent or amount to much.

All that added together would also increase the tougness of current ships by a manifold, finally resulting in a steeper learning/isk/sp curve - though this can be counteracted by simply reducing the amount of NPCs we blow to kingdom come by the factor the new rats would be harder; don't forget to adjust bounty. This would actually be more realistic as well - because facetanking several battleships with a 4 slot omnitank sure isn't.

This is completely ignoring the fact that there are actually nicely thought out missions (Breaking their will L3 comes to mind) that simply fall short in execution. BReaking their will has you destroy an NPC "repair station" that sends out "drones" to repait the ships that came to scare of the attacker and only does stop sending drones when you forcicbly retire the repair stations external power generators. Where it falls short is that
a) there is no mechanic that forces you of the repairstation with the exemption of the rats attacking you
b) the rats don't deal enough dps to seriously threat you while you blow up the repairstation (or the repairstation doesn't have enough buffer to let the NPCs actually reach you to get within optimal or a compound of both)
c) even if they would the repair they gain is totally neglible allowing you to just bruteforce your way through said rats completely negating the need to "cap out their triage"
So in the end instead of blowing up the power generators first, than the dangerous rats than the repairstation that is allways vulnerable and the only thing you need to blow up to complete the mission, you just blow up the station resulting in one of the easiest and fastest (no gate) to blitz mission in the entire game.


All this is completely off topic - not exploration now isn't it - though and ages old as a poblem.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
New Eden Alliance 99013733
#183 - 2014-10-16 18:34:50 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
I actually run them in an Eagle, but same concept.

An Eagle is just as inefficient as an Ishtar.

Quote:
The fact that you choose to run these sites in a 1B+ ship with very long range scramming rats in low/null for what amounts to far less than 100m/hr doesn't make these sites a balanced income source. It just makes you and me and everyone else running them gluttons for punishment. While 20m/site sounds right, you are not going to find sites back to back and a Marauder is not exactly a fast warping ship.

Any 1k DPS battleship would do. I just use a Marauder because it can actually defend itself. I've also done them in a Machariel which has almost the same warp speed as your Eagle and amazing GTFO ability, but less DPS than my Marauder. 100m/h is not anywhere close to what I get. It's at least 300m/h including travel time. Probably closer to 500m/h, but random is random. The travel time is also going to be reduced with the buffed spawnrates.
And yes, I am a glutton for punishment, but unlike the lowsec mining corporation I ran, this is actually rewarding.

Quote:
If you are in nullsec you might as well rat in a carrier or blinged-out Ishtar; put the same cost of ship at risk for AFK income that is better and more consistent across the board. For lowsec we could be blitzing L4 FW missions at a fraction of the cost or, since you are willing to put a Marauder on the line, doing DED escalations for what would likely work out to better income overall.

I'm a lowsec player, not a nullsec player. I've ran capital escalations in a C5 wormhole for 600m/h and daytripped to nullsec to run 10/10 DED sites. I stopped doing both once I discovered besiged sites. Besiged sites might pay less than C5s and 10/10s, but they're in lowsec where I live and much more fun!

Quote:
I'm not saying they aren't fun (after all, I am running them too), I'm just saying for the risk/time investment, the income is not on par with other activities. I can only assume most other people have drawn that same conclusion because, at least in low-sec, I routinely find three of four of these in a system untapped in areas with reasonable amounts of traffic.

The risk, time, and investment is not on par with other activties if you run them in an Eagle or Ishtar. Just because people aren't willing to run them in a 1k+ DPS ship or realize that 20m/site quickly stacks up doesn't mean they should be changed. If you want to PVE with your Eagle or Ishtar, you've got pretty much any other PVE activity in Eve.

Quote:
EDIT: Also implicit in my assumption is the fact that since it requires extensive travel (unlike, say, nullsec carrier ratting), you are most likely going to have a second account/scout at least partially dedicated to providing cover. That means you have to account for the opportunity cost on that second account. Unless you are in the habit of jumping Marauders blind through low-sec gates; I dunno maybe you are :)
Yes, I use an alt for scouting. My Nestor friend doesn't have an alt and instead uses the MWD + cloak trick. So no, you don't need to calculate opportunity cost on a second account unless you want to.
Ukiah Oregan
Lithomancers
#184 - 2014-10-16 19:53:43 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Hey I have one thought,

Don't tell people which structure to shoot honestly. It's that inability for people to actually use the EvE Wiki, which tells people to shoot, that seperates the good explorers from everyone looking to just run the site and leave. I have come in on a lot of sites that were just cleared but the escalation trigger was never done.

You cant spoon feed exploration, this is supposed to be a profession that makes people think.



But while you are balancing, could you add rats back to data sites? There is no risk with a lot of the exploration sites especially in high sec. Since you are adding in more loot with better rewards the risk needs to be raised more.


We've not put the messages in all the 'parent' sites. Just a few to see how it goes for now.
As for the reintroduction of the rats. Maybe later on but not for the current Phoebe release.

Have to disagree with Obsidian Hawk here.
The way it currently is you go and look up a site guide, or you have to shoot EVERYTHING in the site.

Maybe introduce some non module related 'analyse area' effect (links off the Deep scan panel or something) which creates the pop up telling you what interesting notes you have found in the area. Give anywhere with rat wrecks a 0.01% chance of creating a sec related escalation, because hey, more people travelling and doing things other than missions or rating the same system continuously is good. Then any sig that would normally escalate escalates like currently also.

That means the players have to interact with the system, but it's not the current random shoot or read an off site guide.
All the pop ups are doing is integrating the off site guides into EVE, which isn't terrible.


it would be interested in seeing if putting notes on the market would be viable? mean, make it even more interactive, not only do u get a escaltion or a note from a scan but you could sale the note or data...make the notes/data random enough that it takes more than one note to put together and allow people to sale these notes and buy them and build a note library that interacts with the scan results to provide more info over time
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#185 - 2014-10-16 20:43:38 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
You cant spoon feed exploration, this is supposed to be a profession that makes people think.


I cannot disagree more strongly with the sentiments of Obsidian Hawk. Exploration in game should be just that, in game. I should not be required to leave the game to get to the next step in anything PVE related. Testing my google skills is not relevant to my serious business internet spaceships skills. A happy balance would be to give us some sort of journal entry with lots of text talking about a few different things "rumored" to have worked in the past, or some sort of vague hint. Expecting me to shoot everything once or to go to an external site is silly (wasting time shooting everything) or immersion breaking (going to google/wiki).


I'd prefer exploration to be a game of discovery enhanced by cooperative player interaction. Perhaps the escalation triggers could be moved from blowing up structures to data-analysing structures? At some point in the future it might be fun to integrate EVE with Dust by having the capsuleer deploy a clone vat and hire some Dust mercs to secure the facility and return the MacGuffin. In the Rubicon trailer there are two capsuleers cooperating to hack the Ghost Site: it would be nice if cooperation was meaningful in-game ;)

In fact, I'd like to see exploration sites that can be completed "Thief" style, by cloaking up and waiting for wandering patrols to leave scanner range, then using the window of opportunity to approach the data structure and analyse it (i.e.: hack the computer to extract the juicy secrets). Unsuccessful hacks should cause the patrol to return sooner, new security patrols to spawn, or the exploration site to light a beacon inviting other capsuleers to join you for a party.

The database entries and escalation notes from the ship's computer should provide hints as to the type of exploration site, just not as blatantly as the pop-up notes for Data and Relic sites.

TL;DR: Exploration escalations should be triggered by:

  • Sneakily analysing structures to find secret notes
  • Tactically launching DUST514/Legion boarding parties to recover MacGuffins
  • Brutishly blowing up stuff and filtering through the debris (with salvage equipment, perhaps?)


Exploration escalations should not be triggered by:

  • Secret Internet handshakes
  • Always blowing everything up

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#186 - 2014-10-16 20:48:37 UTC
Arcos Vandymion wrote:
So in the end instead of blowing up the power generators first, than the dangerous rats than the repairstation that is allways vulnerable and the only thing you need to blow up to complete the mission, you just blow up the station resulting in one of the easiest and fastest (no gate) to blitz mission in the entire game.


Try running "Break Their Will" with a low SP character in a low-SP-fitted ship. Yes, as a higher SP character flying a T2-fit cruiser or battlecruiser you'll be able to simply blow up the repair station. As a lower-SP character you'll be limited to high-meta weapons and your income won't necessarily support faction ammunition.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Paxille
Doomheim
#187 - 2014-10-16 21:34:47 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:


Carbon has been lowered to 0.01.



You spelled "decryptor" wrong ;)
45thtiger 0109
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#188 - 2014-10-17 01:10:11 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
With the Phoebe release, to be published on November 4th, we are going to improve the relative value of Data Sites, add valuable information to structures in deadspace sites that might spawn an Expedition when being destroyed, and streamline the Career Agent mission descriptions.

Additionally to those improvements we are also going to fix defects associated with Expeditions.

Read all about those changes and improvements in CCP RedDawn's most recent blog All That Is Gold Does Not Glitter - Data Sites, Expeditions!



Hi CCP Phantom what about the Drone Land NPC they are really useless the only thing they having going for them is the bounty but they do not have any loot.

They should be like all other regions NPC which has loot & Bounty.

Please fix the drone land NPCs to make them worthwhile again please.

**You Have to take the good with the bad and the bad with the good.

Welcome to EvE OnLiNe**
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#189 - 2014-10-17 02:56:40 UTC
Can we get 9 of 10s for DED sites now? I feel silly explaining to people that there isn't one after having run 7s, 8s and 10s with them.

Also I agree escalations shouldn't send you half way across the galaxy that was just silly.
I've pretty much ignored quite a few of them when I had to run across heavily camped systems.
Up to 4 or 5 systems per escalation makes some sense

Empty cans that were successfully hacked is particularly stupid and annoying.

Also worthless items are still worthless no matter the size of them. That won't change. Relic sites are still definitely better than data sites.

I hate to say it but to prop those item values up you can have NPCs buy them, although, I'm not sure if that is really desired either.

I think it would be much better to add tags to these sites that function as vouchers for faction items or faction ammo.
You would turn the voucher into a NPC and pay a decent fee to get a faction item in return. That would pull isk out of the game and put in some faction items that the player would be able to use or sell off for a profit.
Iv d'Este
Private Security Squad
#190 - 2014-10-17 03:10:53 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
As for the reintroduction of the rats. Maybe later on but not for the current Phoebe release.


This is a very bad idea. Once you have removed the rats because you have certain considerations. And fortunately for the category of people who love to hack but not like the destruction of the NPC. The considerations concerning the creation of a full-fledged profession. If I perfect hacker I can hack anything. But I am a hacker, not a fighter. I do not want to fight, I want to _hack_. In general, the 0.0 had nothing to do for those who have not skills in missiles or guns. Once you removed the NPC and the date and relic sites, it is much more interesting. There was a full-fledged profession for which you do not need to use fighting skills. It is a choice, it is an alternative. If you return to the NPC Relic and date sites, then everything will be back to the rails - learn tengu / drones, combat skills and only then engaged by the hacking. If you want to increase the difficulty, you increase the complexity of the hacking.

Need an alternative to the martial skills to be able to be in the zeros or wh.
dark dreamur
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#191 - 2014-10-17 03:38:07 UTC
what about drone regions? the spawn rate of data and relic sites is I think lower and the loot is fairly crappy, any thoughts on upgrading these too? also escalations and ded sites don't benefit from dead space loot making them considerably less valuable. Are there any talks about rebalancing drone region pve content ?

other then that Im liking all I see here
Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2014-10-17 06:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Arcos Vandymion
Mara Rinn wrote:
Arcos Vandymion wrote:
So in the end instead of blowing up the power generators first, than the dangerous rats than the repairstation that is allways vulnerable and the only thing you need to blow up to complete the mission, you just blow up the station resulting in one of the easiest and fastest (no gate) to blitz mission in the entire game.


Try running "Break Their Will" with a low SP character in a low-SP-fitted ship. Yes, as a higher SP character flying a T2-fit cruiser or battlecruiser you'll be able to simply blow up the repair station. As a lower-SP character you'll be limited to high-meta weapons and your income won't necessarily support faction ammunition.


I never use faction ammo - even with T2 guns and relevant skills across the board on IV it's not worth the ISK. If I have to spend it on expensive ammo I use T2 (Scorch OP).

Here's a 1m SP* Battlecruiser that should run most L3s - accruing the 70m ISK needed to buy and fit it within the three weeks that it takes to get those 1m SP is the harder task.

Quote:
[Myrmidon, Low Sp]

Prototype Armor Kinetic Hardener I
Prototype Armor Thermic Hardener I
Medium 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I
Drone Damage Amplifier II x3

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I, Tracking Speed Script
Drone Navigation Computer I

Drone Link Augmentor I
Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I, Radio M x4

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I x3


Hammerhead I x5




P.S.: When you redo the forum please add the "spoiler" option found in every other forum ever so we can fold fits up ... and potentiall spoilers as well (does eve have spoilers? *the lich king lives*whsipermumble)

*1m SP is the total after three weeks training relevant skills that are not required for the ship or fit to undock in to 3 (Cap skills, some gunnery, some more drone skills, gallente BC)
Schluffi Schluffelsen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#193 - 2014-10-17 08:08:04 UTC
Iv d'Este wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
As for the reintroduction of the rats. Maybe later on but not for the current Phoebe release.


This is a very bad idea. Once you have removed the rats because you have certain considerations. And fortunately for the category of people who love to hack but not like the destruction of the NPC. The considerations concerning the creation of a full-fledged profession. If I perfect hacker I can hack anything. But I am a hacker, not a fighter. I do not want to fight, I want to _hack_. In general, the 0.0 had nothing to do for those who have not skills in missiles or guns. Once you removed the NPC and the date and relic sites, it is much more interesting. There was a full-fledged profession for which you do not need to use fighting skills. It is a choice, it is an alternative. If you return to the NPC Relic and date sites, then everything will be back to the rails - learn tengu / drones, combat skills and only then engaged by the hacking. If you want to increase the difficulty, you increase the complexity of the hacking.

Need an alternative to the martial skills to be able to be in the zeros or wh.


Why need an alternative? Don't tell me about the "combat" stuff and that it's your choice not to kill stuff. You simply don't want to be bothered to actually adapt to situations, to think which site you can run and tank without losing your ability to cloak/gtfo in hostile space. Don't want to fight? Mine. Trade. Haul. Industry. Invention.

The reintroduction of rats would add more difficulty and more incentives to run them due to higher margins when it comes to loot and you would have the chance to lose your ship if you're not careful. It would be easy to make the same progression of difficulty according to security status of system or difficulty of the actual site. Better loot tables, better rats. Solve your hacking game under some pressure.
Rammix
TheMurk
#194 - 2014-10-17 08:21:40 UTC
Can you make Data/Relic sites die and respawn faster when they are completed only partially? (I don't know maybe there is some good reason for that long delay, though)

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#195 - 2014-10-17 08:47:12 UTC
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
Why need an alternative? Don't tell me about the "combat" stuff and that it's your choice not to kill stuff. You simply don't want to be bothered to actually adapt to situations, to think which site you can run and tank without losing your ability to cloak/gtfo in hostile space. Don't want to fight? Mine. Trade. Haul. Industry. Invention.

You want to fight? Do missions, anoms, combat sites. There's a room for both.
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
The reintroduction of rats would add more difficulty and more incentives to run them due to higher margins when it comes to loot and you would have the chance to lose your ship if you're not careful. It would be easy to make the same progression of difficulty according to security status of system or difficulty of the actual site. Better loot tables, better rats. Solve your hacking game under some pressure.

You want some pressure, do ghost sites. You want hack and shoot do gas labs. You want adrenaline, do sites in lowsec, plenty of pirates in SBs. Explo loot will be better after data changes (i hope).

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Schluffi Schluffelsen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#196 - 2014-10-17 09:35:55 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
Why need an alternative? Don't tell me about the "combat" stuff and that it's your choice not to kill stuff. You simply don't want to be bothered to actually adapt to situations, to think which site you can run and tank without losing your ability to cloak/gtfo in hostile space. Don't want to fight? Mine. Trade. Haul. Industry. Invention.

You want to fight? Do missions, anoms, combat sites. There's a room for both.
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
The reintroduction of rats would add more difficulty and more incentives to run them due to higher margins when it comes to loot and you would have the chance to lose your ship if you're not careful. It would be easy to make the same progression of difficulty according to security status of system or difficulty of the actual site. Better loot tables, better rats. Solve your hacking game under some pressure.

You want some pressure, do ghost sites. You want hack and shoot do gas labs. You want adrenaline, do sites in lowsec, plenty of pirates in SBs. Explo loot will be better after data changes (i hope).


Oh, I do most of these things. So that isn't a valid argument why these sites shouldn't contain any form of rats. But considering how the mechanics of these exploration sites work, it's a bit dull and no scaling in difficulty. Up to CCP anyway, I'd love to see a revamp of these sites in general on visuals and content :)

Good changes so far, the escalations still need some love tho.
CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#197 - 2014-10-17 10:03:42 UTC
Another update for you.

All of the new Generic Decryptors will have a volume of 0.1m3.

Team Genesis
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#198 - 2014-10-17 10:06:59 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Another update for you.

All of the new Generic Decryptors will have a volume of 0.1m3.


Wait, who are you have I seen you before ? This demands an introduction !Big smile
Solkara Starlock
Circle of Mystery
#199 - 2014-10-17 10:10:25 UTC
Did I miss something?

Are you removing the racial decryptors (esoteric, occult,cryptic,...) and replacing them with generic ones or are you adding generic decryptors to the racial ones?
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
#200 - 2014-10-17 10:22:24 UTC
Quote:
All of the new Generic Decryptors will have a volume of 0.1m3.


+1 for volume reduction Big smile

So it's confirmed, racial decryptors will be removed?

Proposal: >>> New Inventory / Item Hangar <<<