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Bumping mechanics revision

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Lenestar Tinsolis
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-10-16 12:59:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lenestar Tinsolis
Max Deveron wrote:
The current best ability to safeguard freighters is to actively escort them. Why not if they are carrying Billions of corp/alliance assets.


The OP's point is that escorts are ineffective against NPC corp bumper alts that do nothing but bump. You can't wardec them, and bumping doesn't draw a flag, so you can't shoot them without getting Concorded.

His solution actually promotes the use of escorts. The freighter surely won't be shooting at a flagged bumper pilot.

I like the creativity of this solution. It's minimalist, and it promotes engagement, collaboration, and attention on the part of players. As he says, it helps the AFKer not at all.

An adjustment to get rid of some of the exploit potential is to tweak the rule a bit:
If a Combat/Attack ship has a prop mod active and bumps a Hauler, the Combat/Attack ship is suspect flagged.
Or you could make it size based (Frigate/Destroyer/Cruiser bumps a Hauler). But the key points are that you have to have a prop mod active and be bumping a Hauler to draw the suspect flag.

With those constraints it would be highly effective rule at identifying a legitimately suspect activity and providing an in-game means for players to actively defend against it.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#22 - 2014-10-16 13:34:09 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There are many counters to bumping already.


i don't give a **** about high sec nor care i about freighters but tell me do they also work for freighters? i cant think of one besides webbing which isn't a complete counter but it makes it harder sure also not use auto pilot would make the chance smaller, but lets be honest here if a freighter moves and a fleet waits for them its chance of survival is not that good.

and freighters is the nr 1 target in high sec with this bumping strategic

tell me i am wrong


You are wrong. If you're using a webber to get your freighter into warp *and* you don't screw up you have to be exceptionally unlucky to get caught.


Lenestar Tinsolis wrote:
The OP's point is that escorts are ineffective against NPC corp bumper alts that do nothing but bump. You can't wardec them, and bumping doesn't draw a flag, so you can't shoot them without getting Concorded.


But you can shoot them.

Lenestar Tinsolis wrote:
His solution actually promotes the use of escorts.


The nature of the game, current game mechanics and the antics of bumpers / gankers promote the use of escorts, but people are stubborn, stupid, lazy, anti-social or some combination thereof.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2014-10-16 16:38:15 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There are many counters to bumping already.


i don't give a **** about high sec nor care i about freighters but tell me do they also work for freighters? i cant think of one besides webbing which isn't a complete counter but it makes it harder sure also not use auto pilot would make the chance smaller, but lets be honest here if a freighter moves and a fleet waits for them its chance of survival is not that good.

and freighters is the nr 1 target in high sec with this bumping strategic

tell me i am wrong


Webs

dont afk

logi

insta blap boats

Counter bumpers

Dont stuff billions in the hold.

ECM

damps
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#24 - 2014-10-16 17:27:31 UTC
Yolandar wrote:
If you're bumped, safe logoff gotta work. They aggro you to stop the logoff, and sacrifice some hardware. ie. you can keep a freighter from warping with a noobship and a gun (intentional fail-gank)

This keeps the old ransom gig alive (time to sing a song?) but you gonna bring Concorde in for the sacrifice (making the bump & gank mechanic more challenging, but still doable).

It's a subtle shift, no new exploits. Nothing changes if the pilot is afk. A pilot active at the control shouldn't be treated the same as the afk wanker, that has never been fair, imho.



Except that they target you and safe logoff does not work?

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#25 - 2014-10-16 18:20:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There are many counters to bumping already.


i don't give a **** about high sec nor care i about freighters but tell me do they also work for freighters? i cant think of one besides webbing which isn't a complete counter but it makes it harder sure also not use auto pilot would make the chance smaller, but lets be honest here if a freighter moves and a fleet waits for them its chance of survival is not that good.

and freighters is the nr 1 target in high sec with this bumping strategic

tell me i am wrong


1. Webs

2. dont afk

3. logi

4. insta blap boats

5. Counter bumpers

6. Dont stuff billions in the hold.

7. ECM

8. damps


right, you are a goon so i am assuming that you know how your buddies do it, and maybe you do it yourself. I dont mind that like i said before kill as many as you please but dont tell rubbish here.

1 and 2 i explained already i don't think its sufficient.

3. they alfa the ship more or less as they need to kill it very fast due to concord.

4. you need a lot of insta lock boats with insta blap to save the freighter.

5. right, it could work but its hard to do, its much harder to bump a very agile machariel then a floating skyscraper

6. this i would agree on say 6 months ago but since a while they even kill them if they are empty

7. you know we talk about high sec right?

8. see 7

you forgot commandship but its not going to help as the shield and armor is not that much of the EHP and hull cant be boosted.

the fact is there is little a freighter can do in high sec and everything that they can do is debatable at best

again i am fine with it, but don't pretend that there is a ton of options that are perfectly fine, because that is a bunch of crap, i know it and so do you

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#26 - 2014-10-16 18:20:55 UTC
I see bumps all the time as i travel though space. CCP falcon said that if you want to avoid ganks to either take logi or take an escort with guns. Neither of which works because CCP Falcon is an idiot as ive seen both. I watched a freighter in Uedama with logi being bumped, the gankers came in ganked the logi, then came back and ganked the freighter while the mach kept bumping him the whole time before and between both ganks. Taking guns dont work either because you cant respond against the whole fleet fast enough even having a fleet because it takes like 3-4 salvos and boom goes the target anyways with the gankers. Ive started experimenting with bumping and so far havent found a freighter on AP or player flown that can even warp out off of a gate before being bumped. So your pretty much screwed just jumping into a system and a bumper being there and just bumping you until the gank fleet gets there. you cant warp away unless they are stupid and bump you in the wrong way, and you cant logoff and get safe.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#27 - 2014-10-16 18:37:48 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
1 and 2 i explained already i don't think its sufficient.


You've either never tried webbing or you need to refine your technique. The freighter pilot has the advantage because while the gank scouts will have reported your ship, you choose exactly when you de-cloak and already have your web ship in range. Incredibly bad luck or user error are the only two reasons why you'd lose your freighter in this situation.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-10-16 19:19:16 UTC
Agondray wrote:
I see bumps all the time as i travel though space. CCP falcon said that if you want to avoid ganks to either take logi or take an escort with guns. Neither of which works because CCP Falcon is an idiot as ive seen both. I watched a freighter in Uedama with logi being bumped, the gankers came in ganked the logi, then came back and ganked the freighter while the mach kept bumping him the whole time before and between both ganks. Taking guns dont work either because you cant respond against the whole fleet fast enough even having a fleet because it takes like 3-4 salvos and boom goes the target anyways with the gankers. Ive started experimenting with bumping and so far havent found a freighter on AP or player flown that can even warp out off of a gate before being bumped. So your pretty much screwed just jumping into a system and a bumper being there and just bumping you until the gank fleet gets there. you cant warp away unless they are stupid and bump you in the wrong way, and you cant logoff and get safe.


Because of falcon!

Constructive Part:
Bumping off station: use insta-undocks safes
Bumping off gate: in corp MWD hyena escort(s), or duel him if your too attached to an NPC corp (thats the minmatar electronic attack frigate with a web range bonus for those uneducated)

Condescending Part:
Bumping off station: Pilot better.
Bumping off gate: Pilot better.

On a long enough timeline, the life expectancy of everyone drops to zero.
Mazzara
Band of the Red Sun
#29 - 2014-10-16 20:44:44 UTC
I'm not a hauler, so I don't have to worry about bumping, but still, I don't care what ccp has to say, its a crap mechanic.
No matter how much you scrub, how hot of water you use, you can't wash shame!
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-10-17 03:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
A lot of interesting discussion here, which is always good to see. I basically came to the OP's point because I've watched a lot of the activity in Uedama/Niarja for the past few weeks and noted the ineffectiveness of logi/escorts. More than once I saw a freighter effectively 'held' with a BumpMach while waves of cats/taloses came in to destroy it despite the best efforts of neutral logi (and lots of them at that). If a wave failed to destroy the target, the mach would hold it there until the gankswarm could try again. And again, until it was destroyed. Using lowslots for armour/bulkheads doesn't help, because the target cannot leave the field because of bumping. Escorts buy time, but the attackers have infinite time due to bumping.

I tried to about-face and flee on my ill-fated journey and they simply followed me (getting ahead due to warp speed of course). I got away twice with crafty piloting (no mean feat in a ship as maneuverable as a building) but eventually the ship was surrounded by machs and couldn't get away. They caught the ship when I tried logging and sacrificed a small ship to scram and keep it on the field.

Another idea I came up with was to change mechanics so that a ship with less mass is bounced away from ships with greater mass. This wouldn't impinge on propulsion mechanics in HS but also effectively ends bumping capitals to stop them warping altogether. Adding a 'ramming module' which increases mass to allow bumping of capitals but also flags the ship as a suspect is an option here.

Another possibility is adding a capital-sized module which increases mass and prevents bumping (not unlike a triage module) but doesn't result in the ship standing still (counter productive in this case). Perhaps it slows the ship down a lot, or some other downside applies.

The only other thing I can think of would be to kick players out of NPC corps but that opens a whole can of worms regarding war mechanics etc. Ugh, so much to fix.

Well aware of the insta warp web tactic. Trying to think of a solution that doesn't involve paying for an extra account or boring a friend to death with freighter escorting. Also, webbing doesn't help you if you're already being bumped. And hey if the web tactic was so viable there wouldn't be a giant red blot in highsec for most of the past couple of months.

Things in this game have a proper in-game mechanic to deal with them. ECM? Use ECCM. Missiles? Use a smartbomb, and same with drones. Using webs to avoid a confrontation is like saying hte best way to avoid ECM is to avoid fighting altogether. I'm not adverse to the confrontation with highsec gankers, only that they have an overwhelming advantage at the moment. There should be something to counter bumping since it's rising in popularity. This problem will be exacerbated if CCP does go ahead and allow real capitals into highsec too.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Sigras
Conglomo
#31 - 2014-10-17 04:51:06 UTC
Lenestar Tinsolis wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
The current best ability to safeguard freighters is to actively escort them. Why not if they are carrying Billions of corp/alliance assets.


The OP's point is that escorts are ineffective against NPC corp bumper alts that do nothing but bump. You can't wardec them, and bumping doesn't draw a flag, so you can't shoot them without getting Concorded.

His solution actually promotes the use of escorts. The freighter surely won't be shooting at a flagged bumper pilot.

I like the creativity of this solution. It's minimalist, and it promotes engagement, collaboration, and attention on the part of players. As he says, it helps the AFKer not at all.

An adjustment to get rid of some of the exploit potential is to tweak the rule a bit:
If a Combat/Attack ship has a prop mod active and bumps a Hauler, the Combat/Attack ship is suspect flagged.
Or you could make it size based (Frigate/Destroyer/Cruiser bumps a Hauler). But the key points are that you have to have a prop mod active and be bumping a Hauler to draw the suspect flag.

With those constraints it would be highly effective rule at identifying a legitimately suspect activity and providing an in-game means for players to actively defend against it.

Sigras wrote:
This change would make all prop mods unusable in high sec.

Allow me to paint the exploit for you.

I am an evil pirate and I want to kill you in your pimped out navy raven. so I get a friend to warp into your mission in a stealth bomber and get in front of you while you're ABing between gates. The second before you bump he decloaks and as soon as you gain the suspect flag he warp scrambles you and calls me in to take you out.

Change stealth bomber to blockade runner and you have the same problem I stated above.
Sigras
Conglomo
#32 - 2014-10-17 05:07:12 UTC
Galphii wrote:
A lot of interesting discussion here, which is always good to see. I basically came to the OP's point because I've watched a lot of the activity in Uedama/Niarja for the past few weeks and noted the ineffectiveness of logi/escorts. More than once I saw a freighter effectively 'held' with a BumpMach while waves of cats/taloses came in to destroy it despite the best efforts of neutral logi (and lots of them at that). If a wave failed to destroy the target, the mach would hold it there until the gankswarm could try again. And again, until it was destroyed. Using lowslots for armour/bulkheads doesn't help, because the target cannot leave the field because of bumping. Escorts buy time, but the attackers have infinite time due to bumping.

I tried to about-face and flee on my ill-fated journey and they simply followed me (getting ahead due to warp speed of course). I got away twice with crafty piloting (no mean feat in a ship as maneuverable as a building) but eventually the ship was surrounded by machs and couldn't get away. They caught the ship when I tried logging and sacrificed a small ship to scram and keep it on the field.

Another idea I came up with was to change mechanics so that a ship with less mass is bounced away from ships with greater mass. This wouldn't impinge on propulsion mechanics in HS but also effectively ends bumping capitals to stop them warping altogether. Adding a 'ramming module' which increases mass to allow bumping of capitals but also flags the ship as a suspect is an option here.

Another possibility is adding a capital-sized module which increases mass and prevents bumping (not unlike a triage module) but doesn't result in the ship standing still (counter productive in this case). Perhaps it slows the ship down a lot, or some other downside applies.

The only other thing I can think of would be to kick players out of NPC corps but that opens a whole can of worms regarding war mechanics etc. Ugh, so much to fix.

Well aware of the insta warp web tactic. Trying to think of a solution that doesn't involve paying for an extra account or boring a friend to death with freighter escorting. Also, webbing doesn't help you if you're already being bumped. And hey if the web tactic was so viable there wouldn't be a giant red blot in highsec for most of the past couple of months.

Things in this game have a proper in-game mechanic to deal with them. ECM? Use ECCM. Missiles? Use a smartbomb, and same with drones. Using webs to avoid a confrontation is like saying hte best way to avoid ECM is to avoid fighting altogether. I'm not adverse to the confrontation with highsec gankers, only that they have an overwhelming advantage at the moment. There should be something to counter bumping since it's rising in popularity. This problem will be exacerbated if CCP does go ahead and allow real capitals into highsec too.

IIRC if you log off before your ship gets aggression your ship disappears in one minutes regardless of what they do to it after you log off.

This means that you can simply log off while being bumped and your ship disappears in 60 seconds because bumping is not aggression.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-10-17 05:19:43 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There are many counters to bumping already.


i don't give a **** about high sec nor care i about freighters but tell me do they also work for freighters? i cant think of one besides webbing which isn't a complete counter but it makes it harder sure also not use auto pilot would make the chance smaller, but lets be honest here if a freighter moves and a fleet waits for them its chance of survival is not that good.

and freighters is the nr 1 target in high sec with this bumping strategic

tell me i am wrong


You're wrong.

Webbing: Can be into warp in less than 3 seconds. You can't be bumped in under 3 seconds.
Scouting: Have a friend/alt a few jumps ahead and don't jump into an obvious tarp.
Suicide Blackbirds: Jam someone out. Also works with webs/scram to stop the bumper mach.
Logistics: Generally considered to be ineffective, because ganks are alphastrikes. But massed logi on a freighter with lots of resists can work.

...And most of all, DON'T BE WORTH GANKING.

Speaking of which, if op wasn't autopiloting with 6 billion ISK in his freighter he probably wouldn't have been ganked.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2014-10-17 05:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Lugia3 wrote:
Suicide Blackbirds: Jam someone out. Also works with webs/scram to stop the bumper mach.
Logistics: Generally considered to be ineffective, because ganks are alphastrikes. But massed logi on a freighter with lots of resists can work.

...And most of all, DON'T BE WORTH GANKING.


And who pays for that Suicide BB or the logistics escorting you? Many CCs, for instance, are worth less reward than a BB with fitting sets you back.
Not to mention that a freighter dies in under 10 seconds, because the Gankers simply have more than enough ships.

And the "don't be worth ganking" is null and void especially since the most Elite PVP coalition in the game announced they would relentlessly gank anything they can get their Machs on -- empty, tanked, worth billions, fitted wrongly, it doesn't matter.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Yolandar
CSR Strategic Reserves
Citizen's Star Republic
#35 - 2014-10-17 06:13:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Yolandar
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Yolandar wrote:
If you're bumped, safe logoff gotta work. They aggro you to stop the logoff, and sacrifice some hardware. ie. you can keep a freighter from warping with a noobship and a gun (intentional fail-gank)

This keeps the old ransom gig alive (time to sing a song?) but you gonna bring Concorde in for the sacrifice (making the bump & gank mechanic more challenging, but still doable).

It's a subtle shift, no new exploits. Nothing changes if the pilot is afk. A pilot active at the control shouldn't be treated the same as the afk wanker, that has never been fair, imho.



Except that they target you and safe logoff does not work?


Exactly what Im saying! Targeting is non-hostile, so why does is break the safe logoff timer? That is whats broke. Fix that and the current mechanics is alright.

*edit*

even passive targeting prevents logoff. Now thats a duff!
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#36 - 2014-10-17 07:03:43 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
a simpler solution would be to allow freighters to have highslots or drone capability (only up to 5 lights) or something to that effect.

Or a useage of @KB players to simply use the safe log if they realize what is happening....still allows for the afk'r or hauler bot to get blapped quite easily.

Seriously though...I have often wondered though if ships like a freighter had the ability to selfdestruct taking all loot and attackers with them....more ammo or such items in them the more damgae caused....
anyway
The current best ability to safeguard freighters is to actively escort them. Why not if they are carrying Billions of corp/alliance assets.


And what are 5 Warrior going to do against a Machariel or a Stabber? Or a swarm of Catalysts. It takes longer for you to lock all of them than it takes time to kill you.

And what do you do with Courier Contracts? No one wants to pay for the money you theoretically owe those who escort you, which means they either work for free (and we all know how keen the vast majority of EVE players is about working for nothing in return. Roll) or the hauler has to further reduce their already meager income and pay the escorts on their own expenses without any compensation from the customer. I'm really looking forward to that. Roll


Uhm...the machariel or stabber is not engaging just bumping. And as to the drones....who knows if its just catalysts and you deploy drones on agressive...it might just take that one or two to die to prevent a death. Who said anything about having to lock them up. Also who said anything about working for free....most of these freighter killers are -10 correct? escorts can blap them and loot the wrecks for a little bit of cash. Besides if your stuff is corp assets or alliance.....that group should be willing to make sure the cargo reaches its destination.....again, owner....behooves them to escort it....and no one is paying you to escort your own stuff.
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#37 - 2014-10-17 07:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Steppa Musana
There are counters to being ganked, but no true counters to being bumped. A webber does not work if the gankers are smart enough. I won't divulge the strategy, but it's possible to still get to the freighter in time to bump it. Once that happens, webbing it down enough to web-warp it between bumps is not plausible.

Counter bumping the bumper is not very plausible either, and near impossible with 2 or 3 bumpers going at it. Once you are bumped, there is no way to counter the bump if the enemy is savvy enough. Bringing 5:1 ratio of ships against them won't change that. The issue being the large model size of the freighter that can be bumped from various angles and positions.
On the same topic, we are playing a spaceship shooting video game. It's EVE Online, not Bumper Cars Online.

Logi, ECM, Damps can all be used to keep your freighter alive, but your freighter can still be indefinitely bumped. The point being a group of trolls could keep you bumped for 23.5 hours if they so pleased.

This is inherently a problem of balance. If someone is keeping you from warping off for hours on end, there absolutely should be a way to counter that, and the counter should be in the true spirit of what EVE Online is all about.

Suspect status to the bumper is the best solution for this. The bumper can bring guns and friends in logistics to defend himself. Anti-gankers and friends of the freighter can come with their own guns to help out. This is the opinion CCP Falcon himself has offered

CCP Falcon wrote:
If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.

Yes, he was referring to the gank specifically, but the bump is simply the first element of the gank I would argue.

Sitting around and waiting for 45 minutes with logistics and ECM alts is not proper emergent gameplay. It's not in the true spirit of EVE, where guns blazing is the solution to a problem that arises. There is a good point made about how the suspect flag could be inherited by the bumper and not by other ships more innocently bashing about. There have been solutions presented for this. The best one IMO involves bumping itself not giving you any flag. Instead, by default ships pass through one another, except: In corp, in alliance, in fleet, at war, in limited engagement, if one party is criminal, if one party is suspect. You can then use a button to turn yourself suspect at will, allowing you to bump anyone.

Hey guys.
Yolandar
CSR Strategic Reserves
Citizen's Star Republic
#38 - 2014-10-17 07:27:49 UTC
fix the dam targeting glitch that prevents safe logoff, its not hostile act.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#39 - 2014-10-17 09:09:32 UTC
Galphii wrote:
I basically came to the OP's point because I've watched a lot of the activity in Uedama/Niarja for the past few weeks and noted the ineffectiveness of logi/escorts. More than once I saw a freighter effectively 'held' with a BumpMach while waves of cats/taloses came in to destroy it despite the best efforts of neutral logi (and lots of them at that).


Watching other people screw up isn't really evidence of a problem, just evidence that they're bad.

Galphii wrote:
I tried to about-face and flee on my ill-fated journey and they simply followed me (getting ahead due to warp speed of course). I got away twice with crafty piloting (no mean feat in a ship as maneuverable as a building) but eventually the ship was surrounded by machs and couldn't get away. They caught the ship when I tried logging and sacrificed a small ship to scram and keep it on the field.


Did this experience make you realise that the loss was 100% your fault? I suspect from your posts that it didn't.

Galphii wrote:
Another idea I came up with was to change mechanics so that a ship with less mass is bounced away from ships with greater mass. This wouldn't impinge on propulsion mechanics in HS but also effectively ends bumping capitals to stop them warping altogether. Adding a 'ramming module' which increases mass to allow bumping of capitals but also flags the ship as a suspect is an option here.


You're trying to fix a non-existant problem. The tools are already there for you to almost always avoid your freighter, orca, whatever being McGanked.

Galphii wrote:
Another possibility is adding a capital-sized module which increases mass and prevents bumping (not unlike a triage module) but doesn't result in the ship standing still (counter productive in this case). Perhaps it slows the ship down a lot, or some other downside applies.


This has been suggested before but no-one who wants it seems to like the drawbacks that would be required to make it balanced. Miners were the first to demand an anchoring module but were outraged that proper balance would require it to take up a highslot. In this specific instance, slowing the ship down would get it into warp quicker, so you're asking for a double-nerf to bumping, which means either you're being devious or you don't know enough about the game to be asking for any changes at all.

Galphii wrote:
Well aware of the insta warp web tactic. Trying to think of a solution that doesn't involve paying for an extra account or boring a friend to death with freighter escorting. Also, webbing doesn't help you if you're already being bumped. And hey if the web tactic was so viable there wouldn't be a giant red blot in highsec for most of the past couple of months.


A real friend will happily help you get your freighter from A to B, and it's a much faster trip with webs. A self-serving carebear won't help because that wallet balance isn't going to increase on its own. As for the web tactic being viable, you seem to be completely discounting the huge number of lazy and / or stupid and / or ignorant and / or anti-social and / or bot-aspirant players there are in highsec. It works, as close to 100% of the time as is possible. Sure, sooner or later you're going to get unlucky and a random machariel is going to be coming right at the spot where you spawn after jumping. Maybe the server has a brainfart and you die as a result. Nothing you can do about things like that, which is why I regularly point out that sheer bad luck can cost you regardless of precautions.

As for overwhelming advantages, we only have them because you give them to us. I realise that it's incredibly un-politically correct (and likely even criminal in the UK :P) to mention personal responsibility, but I don't care. You are accountable when you refuse or fail to use tools that would drastically improve your odds of survival.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#40 - 2014-10-17 09:11:53 UTC
Steppa Musana wrote:
There are counters to being ganked, but no true counters to being bumped.


You are wrong. I and many others have explained this many, many, many, many times.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff