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Why Aren't More People In W-Space?

First post
Author
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#81 - 2014-10-15 23:29:13 UTC
Random Yotosala wrote:
Kirasten wrote:
Papa Django wrote:
Mister Tuggles wrote:

And to people saying you risk losing everything if you get sieged... This isn't really a problem now. I know a few of the large c5/6 corps still attack each other (ADHOC losing their entire system recently), but for the most part no one is going to waste their time attacking anything under a c5. You have no real risk in that department.


I have seen / been commited in 5 evictions attempt in wh <=C4 in 4 or 5 months.

It happens ...

From the POV of a small wh corp CEO trying to build a wh corp in low class wh, it is ... So ******* hard.

Reasons are well known :
1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class
2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp
3- Nothing can be done solo
4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory)
5- Skills & knowledge needed for the player (lots of things to know)
( EDIT : And i forgot the discipline needed, lots of player can't bear that)

Reasons 1, 2 and 3 could be fixed by CCP.
Reasons 4 et 5 are just nice as it is.

If you want more people in low class wh, up the blue loots reward and remove Hyperion (mass based jump distance especially).
It is the only way.


A lot of this is just craziness. I was drug into a c2 before I had even finished the training missions and into a c5 before I could t2 fit the rattlesnakes we use to use for sites. I didn't even know how to play eve. I learned to play eve in a wormhole. So telling people its hard is bollocks.

Like most people, I don't like the mass mechanic added in Hyperion, but acting like its so much extra work is just lies. In those low class systems you are talking about, what is the size of the hole? A 1 bil hole takes 2 orcas to slowboat back .. what is that, 15 seconds?


So, you've been living in a big corp that does the closing for you. I hope you understand that it's not the case for the small corps.

PS: Orcas cost money and time.


It's funny that you think you know me. I moved into a c5/c4 with a corp that a 5 person fleet was a really active day. And with a 2 bil static you can bet I took part in rolling almost every time we rolled.

No, orcas aren't cheap. But seeing how you can close your static in about 15 seconds, its probably worth the cost
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#82 - 2014-10-16 00:27:57 UTC
From my POV, as someone who does take the very few new bros (aka nublets) in from hisec who dare to believe, gives them a training plan and a couple of days training on probing, rollling, cloaking and so on, I agree with those who say that the elitism and overdone T3 + Guardian minimum buy-in shizzle is doing people out of a good time.

I have also, consistently said that NO wormhole contains enough ISk inside it to support more than a couple of accounts, even if you don't plex your accounts. PLEX prices are on the rise because, dare I say it, you have clowns abusing ISBoxer and working the maths to farm Incursions or ice or mins or anomalies such that one man's effort is multiplied ten or more times and results in a time-efficient way to plex all the accounts and provide play money on top.

This is not tinfoil hattery - how many UnimatrixOX, Borg0X, Versimilidude0X, blah blah blah are there? That's just the more (in)famous, there's dozens and dozens of people running 3-6 accounts via ISBoxer and soaking up bulk amounts of PLEX, doing whatever it is they are doing.

(as an aside make no mistake, the reversal of the decloaking problem is solely to nerf ISBoxing bomber wings)

That means that the very limited amount of ISK available in wormholes - and however inefficiently you can access it, especially as newbros - becomes less valuable and more time-intensive to PLEX your second account. I mean, when I were a lad I paid PLEX via ninja salvaging in hisec, and had 750M a month *spare* to buy shinies. Nowadays you can't even ninja salvage 200M a month (tractors being the major factor) and PLEX prices are nudging 800M.

So this is how it ends, I think. A game where it's too hard, too expensive and too elitist to go do anything as a new bro;; the elders get burned out and dissatisfied and stop PLEXing their accounts, and activity drains away, leaving a handful of people running 20 accounts each.

Wormholes aren't bearing the brunt of the lack of players solely. Aridia used to be the most deserted paart of EVE a few years ago. now it's Kador, and the Dronelands. Hundreds of systems with ~0.2 people per system, and a few systems in the dronelands with mobs of instadocking Rattlesnake / Thanny / AFKtars, all complaining their ISK/hr is not up with incursions.

So what do we do as wormholers? I don't know, but certainly addressing the elitism will allow in more players. Keeping them in w-space I think is going to be impossible, as the ISK is just not good enough, and no, moving to C5's is not a solution for newbros.

I think the addition of nullsec data and relic, and the buffing of data sites with better loot, may see more itinerants come in chasing them. But even so, the only advantage here is more data herons or maybe the odd Astero with 3 stabs or nanos, that books it the moment anything appears on d-scan.

It may help add a bit of sustaining ISK to C1-3 but it still won't be enough to keep people in system.

And, again, oon the elitism thing - when you're going to gank a dude, bring something smaller and make it a bit less ridiculous than dropping 10 T3's on a single Drake. Show a bit of skill, if you even have it. On top of that, if everyone pods people out, it adds to the PITA factor of wormhole existence. If you've got lucky enough to catch a guy on the hop, and he's a nub, maybe leaving him alive to reship won't kill you, and if it does, then more fool you.

I also appreciate the irony of me saying this after the past week's killboard activity.
ISD Cyberdyne
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#83 - 2014-10-16 00:39:49 UTC
Removed some trolling, disrespectful comments, and personal attacks. Please adhere to the forum rules, otherwise you risk your forum posting privileges. Thanks.

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Derek Wiildstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2014-10-16 01:28:17 UTC
Something that I had hoped Worm holes would have: Random dragons. Once upon a time in a game called WOW there were a few epic dragons that would randomly spawn. For a while when the game was young we'd have mass PvP fights over who would be allowed to kill the dragon before people got really organized and camped the dragons 24/7 with alts. I fought in battles that lasted 2-3 hours over said dragons and win or lose it was great sandbox content.



The randomness of WH's takes care of camping issue that killed such content in wow and WH space ideally setup to have something odd and never encountered before to popup randomly. It could be something like a random spawn of some ancient malfunction sleeper drone that's built itself upto to the size of a very small moon by consuming everything in it's path. It would wander around it's hole looking for structures or players to consume and it would take a large group of players a while to take him down (low damage, high HP). Only found on DSCAN and it should encourage groups of players to fight over who's allowed to kill the it. EVE is really lacking when it comes to PvE encounters that led to PvP Brawls over the content.



We're starting to see some fun brawls with exploration now that most people are using the same ships and are competing over the loot found in explorations sites. I'd like to see this trend continue with epic sized sleepers in W-Space. Start making PvE bosses like we see in other MMO's but in EVE's open sandbox environment.


Here's a picture of what I want the first epic sleeper to look like:
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/385014-eve-online-windows-screenshot-players-can-explore-this-rogue.png
Thomas Hurt
Future Ventures
#85 - 2014-10-16 14:26:07 UTC
It comes down to Isk Vs. Risk. If you're not running capital escalations, the general hassle of wormhole living and the lack of local makes the isk fairly bad compared to Incursions or whatever.
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence
Wrong Hole.
#86 - 2014-10-16 15:20:45 UTC
Thomas Hurt wrote:
It comes down to Isk Vs. Risk. If you're not running capital escalations, the general hassle of wormhole living and the lack of local makes the isk fairly bad compared to Incursions or whatever.


But so what? I like risk, that's why I live and operate in wspace. I don't play an Internet Spaceship Game to maximize how much imaginary space currency I can make and call it fun because it clearly isn't.

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#87 - 2014-10-16 15:58:14 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
From my POV, as someone who does take the very few new bros (aka nublets) in from hisec who dare to believe, gives them a training plan and a couple of days training on probing, rollling, cloaking and so on, I agree with those who say that the elitism and overdone T3 + Guardian minimum buy-in shizzle is doing people out of a good time.

I have also, consistently said that NO wormhole contains enough ISk inside it to support more than a couple of accounts, even if you don't plex your accounts. PLEX prices are on the rise because, dare I say it, you have clowns abusing ISBoxer and working the maths to farm Incursions or ice or mins or anomalies such that one man's effort is multiplied ten or more times and results in a time-efficient way to plex all the accounts and provide play money on top.


Perhaps in how people operate in wormhole space currently but I don't think this is true universally. There are mountains of ISK sitting in w-space. I see it every day as I move around chains. Combat sites, datas, relics, all sitting fallow with no one running them. Groups only considering their home anoms or those in their immediate static perhaps are left without enough content depending on the group size. But if a group is truly that large, they should be more than equipped to raid holes all up and down the chain for PvE. A dirty thought, yes I know but...

It's interesting to me that as PvP'ers, groups spend significant time looking for PvE pilots to attack. Yet it almost seems that if PvP groups took to mass PvE in PvP capable ships (see TXGsycn's recent blog posts on how relatively easy this is especially in C3 space) that they'd probably attract other PvP groups and get the fights they're looking for. And if not, they've padded their wallet all along the way.

I guess maybe that's a pipe dream that PvE and PvP in w-space wouldn't be mutually exclusive and at odds with each other but how attractive would that be to both types of players if a corp went ranging across w-space, crushing sleepers, collecting ISK, and taking on anyone who dared confront them?

The efficiency experts will decry it isn't the most ISK/hr activity but aren't so many of us extolling the fun quotient to our play?
350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2014-10-16 16:06:43 UTC
I think the problem in WHs is can be broken-down to a few things (notice the similarity to what resulted in the blue-doughnut):

1: Bittervets: lot's of whining going on in this thread, especially from former WH occupants

2: Win Eve Button: Bittervets complain more and more about making WH life easier, not about keeping it challenging or engaging (see thread(s) on allowing jump clones in WH space and all the whinging here and elsewhere about the mass related changes from Hyperion)

3: Isk per Hour: Isk per hour seems to have dominated all aspects of Eve and it's not for the good. People won't do anything unless it maxes out their isk/hr, and the everyone seems to point out how anyone new isn't maxing this out. Who cares if you can make more isk/hr running a relic site if you enjoy running combat sites? The WH community needs to speak about the fun we have, not how we maximize profits. Especially since most WH occupants claim to be only PVPrs that PVE is secondary. If that's the truth, then stop complaining about low class holes not being worth the effort.

4: Rise of the megacorps: It happens. Smaller corps go through slow periods (see this past summer) and people start leaving for the larger entities because they're the only ones that have enough people on line to do something. Then the larger corps/alliances can't find fights because the small corps can only field 5-10 ships against a 20man T3 fleet (unless of course it's Snails and Frogs, then they won't field a 20man fleet against a 10 man fleet because... who knows).

Stop spinning your ships and have fun again.

I'd also like to recommend that WH corps continue publicizing when they prey on nullbears like the recent Lazerhawks v. Fraternity reports. People will come to us when they know we eat bears for lunch.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.

RudinV
The Dozen
#89 - 2014-10-16 16:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: RudinV
u shouldnt say "we eat bears for lunch", not so long time ago, BU n QEX were eating bears for the breakfast, lunch, dinner and lots of times, we being very hungry smashed few frigos even at night. Bears didnt like this. bears whined to CCP and they "fixed" wspace> removed around 30-40% of residents (no i dont have numbers, just my friendlist says this)... so plz, be carefull when u talk about bears, unless u want to have only high sec exits
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#90 - 2014-10-16 17:07:00 UTC
All this makes me wonder, maybe the question is "What is worth fighting over in w-space?"

Take a couple common understandings

1. Ganks in wormhole space, while entertaining is sub-optimal PvP experpience for all involved
2. Evictions in wormhole space are generally few and far between (listen to the latest DtP for commentary on this)
3. PvP engagements can end in two fleets wanting the other to jump into them with neither wanting to give this advantage. How often is this the case?
4. There is more than enough PvE sites for corps to run to fill their coffers. Do PvP groups do this typically to fund themselves or are PvP corps and members filling their wallets with alt activities not related to w-space?

What are we fighting over?

We're not fighting over sites. It's hard to say if this was ever an intent of wormhole space but the reality is they are not scarce resources to be fought over.

We're not fighting over systems. More than enough to go around and rarely will two groups desire the same space.

Are people fighting just to fight? Is this as any kind of a sustainable effort? Fights cost ISK to one or both sides. ISK that has to be replaced. Are wormhole members commonly making their ISK outside of wormholes? Sure, you have the few dedicated w-space residents that scout and scan and look. It is commonly thought that PvP fleets are then waiting for the ping, running on alts, out of game, simply there to engage and disappear. I have admittedly not lived in a PvP corp so I would love to hear if this is not the case. I would guess that a smaller PvP corp where the gang or fleet size is most active members, it isn't. But for a corp of a size where you reach the point where the ISK cannot support the corp, are they naturally drawn then out of w-space, on alt characters, doing other things to make ISK instead of operating in w-space thus adding to the emptiness?

Is an answer to the OP question then that we need something w-space related to fight over and what would that look like?
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#91 - 2014-10-16 17:59:20 UTC
I used to live there and hardly got to do anything, the alliance/corp i was in was killboard nazi and didnt want anyone doing anything in the worm hole unless eyes were on every wh in and out. Other then mining which i couldnt do with out having multiple alts was sleeper hunting which they did in dreadnoughts and a couple of carriers and still did not happen until all wh eyes were covered. lastly they were arrogent, spouting off their mouthes and quickly panicked when a merc corp strated bringing in caps to kill them, and they could wage a proper war logging in to do nothing when they wanted to kick a corp out of another wormhole, bashed 2 unarmed towers while the merc corp and the corp they were attacking showed force and then my corp ceo and all tucked tail.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#92 - 2014-10-16 22:57:38 UTC
Hatshepsut IV wrote:
People have this opinion of wormholes being this place with an incredibly high bar of entry in a game which already has a huge bar of entry learning curvewise.


That sort of filters out a lot of people who might otherwise come here.


Tl;dr Scanning is hard?

Scanning is boring. I've been in long enough to know how even more boring it was before you could automatically arrange your probes, launch them all at once, resize the array in a single command. It's still boring.

I dunno, something like a POS module that scans down whs? How about that? Roll

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#93 - 2014-10-16 23:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Trinkets friend
Obil Que wrote:
Stuff and things


I think you have got it all wrong here because you don't think past proximal evidence and look at systematics.

Yes, there's "mountains" of ISK in wormholes. I assume you are considering a bunch of towers in an occupied system as constituting these alleged "mountains"or the fact people have hangars stocked with T3's. However, if you look at the regularity with which people lose ships and the length of time some people have played the game, you can disabuse yourself of this notion pretty damn quickly.

My corp's POS, which I paid for personally, costs about 900M ISK all up, and that's including faction webs (looted), the stick itself (again, looted) and the damps. This represents, to me, nothing more than random accumulation of crud via time spent in game. it is less than the shiny modules on my highsec pimp chariot Nightmare.

There are 30 toons in corp. If the corp wished to club together to buy the POS, we could all rat for <1 hour and it would be done. And that's cut to 20 minutes of incursions.

If you consider than EVE players devote tens or hundreds or even thousands of hours to gaming, and to some extent this is ratting, then yes you accumulate wealth. There's just as much wealth in nulllsec as w-space, per toon, you just can't see it because most of it is docked inside a station and all the POSs are owned by the alliances annd exist solely to provide refuge for cowards, JB's, cyno gens, or moon goo humping.

If you are a rational, intelligent, mid-30's geek who isn't a complete dinkus brain, you act on analytical drivers and can swiftly work out that, if ISK supply drives you, C4's are not the best place to be. The ISK rate in wormholes is capped very, very low and your only response is to roll statics and farm, move to where ISK supply is rate-based and defined by your personal time invested, not an artificial cap derived from CCP's random number generator and how they constructed wormholes.

The problem here, and the point of mine which you missed, is not about ISK/hr. it's about ISK/day per wormhole. To repeat myself, ad nauseum, if for example a C4 site is worth 80M ISK and you get 2 per day your hole generates 160M ISK per day. Full stop. Every month, therefore, a C4 is worth 4.8 billion ISK, plus PI. That is nigh on 5 toons worth of PLEX, or 2.5 meatbods of residents assuming your income goes towards PLEX.

Therefore, for group sizes above 5, any C4 wormhole is unsustainable (plus or minus PI, but assume 300M a month you push it out to 10 residents). Minus expenses (fuel, ships).

True, people can farm their statics, but this becomes an equation of the total pool of C4 wormholes. Given 550 C4's and 2.5 stable residents per wormhole, C4's can (plus or minus PI, mining, gassing, data and relic income) support a total of 1375 accounts via PLEX. That's your hard upper limit, without the residents being on subscription. So assume another 1375 subbed accounts and you have a population of 5 toons per wormhole.


To further elaborate - if you clean your home hole, you get nothing more no matter how much effort you put in, so you log or leave (or, if a PVPer, hunt). in k-space, you can bang out missions day in and day out at a ISK/hr rate, etc. Every hour you devote to gaming rewards you. Not so in w-space. Very swftly, every hour you play begins making you nothing. So people leave.

Second point, you are clearly pained in the buttocks about losing PVE ships in wormhole space. Yes, i checked you on zkilllboard. Your accusation that PVP pilots spend time looking for PVE pilots to attack is erroneous, a falsity based on your own experiences. Personally, as Marlona Sky's fat goateed w-space cousin, I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get PVP pilots to attack my Nereus, and every so often it works.

I also spend inordinate amounts of time trying to find PVE characters with buds, to tackle and troll out the buds. Often this is done via tackling T3's in my Nereus, hotdrop style. Or tackling hulks in my Nereus. Or anything, really. I attack PVE ships in my hauler to get them to fight back.

Then, of course, my mates jump in and shoot the foes. It's called a Nereus And Switch. And it works.

In an ideal Obil Que world of space honour and fairies, we would roll around throwing down gauntlets upon entering system, declaiming "Sudden Buggery is in you. Or at least your wormhole. We are a gang f six, consisting of 2 x cloaky proteus (fit in Local), 1 x web Loki (fit in local), 1 x Execquror (fit in local), 2 x Astero (fit in Local). As you can see we have a warp disruptor on every ship! Hie thee to a PVP ship or pay a lameness tax and we shall leave, for we are NRDS and do not attack yon PVE boats, for we are honourable w-space knights and not at all lame. What say, ye, cowering bears?"

And the cowering bears would be all like "Sorry, TF, we will just sit here in our POS and play World of Tanks instead. But thanks for the offer. here is 50M per toon for the time you have wasted rage rolling into us.. Tootles!"

Pffft.
Teleil Zoomers
Royal Sphynx Ltd
#94 - 2014-10-16 23:35:49 UTC
im going out on a limb and gonna take a wild guess that its a comibination of things. subscriptions down, active log ins low, etc.

if you are in a 25 man corp and only 3 people are online its kind of hard to do anything in jspace unless your ducks are in a row.
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#95 - 2014-10-17 00:29:42 UTC
Teleil Zoomers wrote:
im going out on a limb and gonna take a wild guess that its a comibination of things. subscriptions down, active log ins low, etc.

if you are in a 25 man corp and only 3 people are online its kind of hard to do anything in jspace unless your ducks are in a row.


Part of the point is "why are subscriptions and log ins down?"
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#96 - 2014-10-17 03:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Obil Que
Trinkets friend wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
Stuff and things


More considered response below
Senn Denroth
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#97 - 2014-10-17 03:14:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Senn Denroth
As a leader in one of the larger corps out there I will tell you that the success of your corp in w-space does not fall down to the activity levels of other corps in w-space. It does impact the provision of content to a degree but will not define you as a success of a failure in w-space.

The content is out there, you just have to find it! Yes Lazerhawks is a PVP focused entity living in w-space but above all we are out there to provide content to our members and keep it fun for everyone, whether that means we roam out null, go push someone else’s castle over for whatever reason, we do it because overall it is a game and we want good content for our members.

W-space has defeated many corps & alliances but normally all pertain to internal issues. KILL alliance for instance suffered from command issues (can't wait for g0hme to find this post and post up some BS) that I tried addressing but all fell on deaf ears, resulting in the active member base moving corps, something fresh, something active, with an understanding that if you don't provide content for your members w-space will be dead, but only for your members.

What I mean by that is that w-space has lots of content out there. For me most nights it means logging in to our AU TZ and running some sites, scanning chains, doing production, but doing it actively with the other 10-15 members we have online at the time. Is there PVP all the time? No there isn't. Has it always been that way? Yes it has, ever since wormholes were introduced.

Big doughnut? I laugh at that when I see those kinds of comments.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=25571398

or

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24484287

We're simply good mates that shoot each other in a spaceship game, providing each other with content in w-space, pretty simple really.

Wormholes are not dead, however there may be a bit of stagnation at the moment but that's only because some of the larger corps that have leadership that are either not promoting or not even providing content generation in some way for their members. We saw this revealed recently when ADHC being mostly away from game, unable to field fleets etc, get their castle smashed over by SSC. It was content for both corps, and I think I can say very fun for both sides.

There is also a second reason in that some smaller corps either don’t have the right motivation towards w-space, or are continually trying to hit above their weight without success.

To the smaller corps out there that want to get in to wormhole space or are already in but struggling, I suggest you first review what players you have and how many. Realistically look at getting a wormhole for the size of your corp, or even a lower class wormhole making less ISK but being more manageable is going to be better for your members if they’re having more fun. When I started out in OMFG we settled in a C2 with a HS/C3 static. You can operate in something like this quite easily, make a little bit of ISK. Get used to wormhole life, recruit, grow, or merge with a bigger corp when you want to move up. Even a C2 w HS/C4 works, easy access to kspace, you can farm your static and explore up the chain via the C4 static.

So in the end, what does it come down to? People! If you know people in w-space, you will do well. People and PVP is deeply integrated in w-space, and deeply integrated in what makes this game popular. Generally we've found smaller entities that are ballsier than some of the larger stagnated bittervet corps/alliances in w-space seem to have more fun, and grow to be a much better corp in EVE/w-space. From that they get my respect, help and in a lot of cases they get some sort of protection from that respect. It’s almost like they have a bit of a right to stay in w-space because they're helping provide content to other corps and their members.

But for some however they’re only in it for the numbers. They see PVP in w-space as an inconvenience and a hindrance when trying to meet their ISK targets. This I can tell you for sure is the wrong motive to be in w-space and even so in EVE as a whole. Please for the love of all that is holy change your thinking because this if you do think this because you are part of the stagnation of w-space. This example can apply to some larger entities that end up hording w-space members with this focus on non-PVP; mark my words, your stay in w-space will come to an end. Someone will come and push your sand castle over and you will lose it all.

In the end, EVE is a people game, a social experiment in a way. It’s about relationships, trust, loyalty, socialisation. And w-space only magnifies these aspects of the game.

Sorry for the textwall.
/end rant
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#98 - 2014-10-17 03:35:55 UTC
Not a rant Senn. You have a lot of good talking points.

Obil Que wrote:
All this makes me wonder, maybe the question is "What is worth fighting over in w-space?"

Take a couple common understandings

1. Ganks in wormhole space, while entertaining is sub-optimal PvP experpience for all involved
2. Evictions in wormhole space are generally few and far between (listen to the latest DtP for commentary on this)
3. PvP engagements can end in two fleets wanting the other to jump into them with neither wanting to give this advantage. How often is this the case?
4. There is more than enough PvE sites for corps to run to fill their coffers. Do PvP groups do this typically to fund themselves or are PvP corps and members filling their wallets with alt activities not related to w-space?

What are we fighting over?

We're not fighting over sites. It's hard to say if this was ever an intent of wormhole space but the reality is they are not scarce resources to be fought over.

We're not fighting over systems. More than enough to go around and rarely will two groups desire the same space.

Are people fighting just to fight? Is this as any kind of a sustainable effort? Fights cost ISK to one or both sides. ISK that has to be replaced. Are wormhole members commonly making their ISK outside of wormholes? Sure, you have the few dedicated w-space residents that scout and scan and look. It is commonly thought that PvP fleets are then waiting for the ping, running on alts, out of game, simply there to engage and disappear. I have admittedly not lived in a PvP corp so I would love to hear if this is not the case. I would guess that a smaller PvP corp where the gang or fleet size is most active members, it isn't. But for a corp of a size where you reach the point where the ISK cannot support the corp, are they naturally drawn then out of w-space, on alt characters, doing other things to make ISK instead of operating in w-space thus adding to the emptiness?

Is an answer to the OP question then that we need something w-space related to fight over and what would that look like?


This is my major concern. Ownership of a wormhole means basically nothing, but they can't really give wormholes a value without regiggering alot of things.

Occupancy based wormhole site spawns?

Better Site Spawns?

Honestly, there needs to be loot. People do nullsec for isk and loot. Now we have the isk, but we have no loot. We all play videogames (mmo's specifically) for two things. One is to kill each other, and the second is to get phat lewt. Highsec has it with missions, lowsec has it with faction warfare and lp stores, nullsec has it with officer sites, and ded's, wormholes...

They have just started with a few Ghost Sites, and future Nullsec Data/Relic sites.

There need to be either the option for module drops from the end of running a combat site, or the option for items to build wormhole equipment dropping out of sites.

You create a goldrush, and you'll have people flying in.

Yaay!!!!

Caleb Seremshur
Mortis Angelus
The morgue.
#99 - 2014-10-17 04:46:39 UTC
Don't you think that maybe putting some extra minerals or even ice in to the lower populated catagories of wormholes would work too? This obsession with ganking can only be fueled by having things to gank.

Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Strictly Unprofessional
#100 - 2014-10-17 06:23:09 UTC
Papa Django wrote:
Mister Tuggles wrote:

And to people saying you risk losing everything if you get sieged... This isn't really a problem now. I know a few of the large c5/6 corps still attack each other (ADHOC losing their entire system recently), but for the most part no one is going to waste their time attacking anything under a c5. You have no real risk in that department.


I have seen / been commited in 5 evictions attempt in wh <=C4 in 4 or 5 months.

It happens ...

From the POV of a small wh corp CEO trying to build a wh corp in low class wh, it is ... So ******* hard.

Reasons are well known :
1- risk vs reward balance is bad in low class
2- Hyperion release is a disaster for small corp
3- Nothing can be done solo
4- Skills needed for pilot (T3 mandatory)
5- Skills & knowledge needed for the player (lots of things to know)
( EDIT : And i forgot the discipline needed, lots of player can't bear that)

Reasons 1, 2 and 3 could be fixed by CCP.
Reasons 4 et 5 are just nice as it is.

If you want more people in low class wh, up the blue loots reward and remove Hyperion (mass based jump distance especially).
It is the only way.


I agree and disagree with some of these points... Here is my take.

Point 1 - No one would disagree the balance between class 1-4, incursions and class 5-6 wormholes is NOT right. Based on difficulty I would suggest that Class 4 wormholes should be a similar isk per hour to Vanguards for a reasonable sized group 5-10. Class 3 = Assaults and Class 2 = scouts and Class 1's as they are now.

Point 2 - To be honest I support Hyperion and the changes it brought, wormholes needed a shake up and we got it... FINALLY! I also think CCP has listened... Mostly... As they have toned down the spawn rate of the frigate wormholes and added some graphical and non-graphic ways to know the difference. This also helps with C1 (Medium ship) connections as well.

I do think that the mass-based spawn distance should have been a large random spawn for ALL ship types Can spawn between randomly between 2 and 15km for instance) but thats just my personal opinion as I haven't validated that with the wider community as yet.

Point 3 - All class 1 - 4 sites can be solo'd (other than maybe class 4 data/relic sites)

Class 1 - Destroyer/T2 Frigate/T1 Cruiser
Class 2 - HAC or Faction Cruiser
Class 3 - Battle cruiser and strategic cruisers
Class 4 - Marauders and carriers (though caps of course need to be built there)

Point 4 - This just isn't true for lower class wormholes such as class 1-2. If your in a group with logistics you can also still be useful up to class 4 wormholes as we have seen in our class 4 and newer players. New players are generally scared of coming into wormhole space or recruiters are scared of letting them in... I for one WAS one of them. Although recently I have let numerous low SP character and found as long as they can at least cloak while warping (astero or Covert Ops Frigate) and have astrometics 4 and the other support skills to 2 they can be an effective part of the wormhole community.

Point 5 - This is by far the biggest problem. I dont believe CCP does anywhere near enough to train/help new pilots in all aspects of EVE, all be it, it is much better than when I started in 2009. Players need knowledge to be able to leave their newbie system... Being a sandbox of course they should only assist pilots uptil a certain point although I believe the newbie experience still does not go far enough to keep new playersThis is something that I believe CCP needs to work on along with a much more active marketing program.

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public