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Allow Supers to Dock

Author
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#21 - 2014-10-15 21:44:13 UTC
hmmm,
I kinda of like the ideas and i kinda dont....depends on how they mesh together.
So i will say this....remember the roadmap...CCP (hopefully really soon) is supposed to be revisiting Corp roles on their roadmap to player stargates.
Otherwise, docking supers....saw a nyx undock once in jita..remember that one vets lol.
1.) would free up pilots for use and fun gameplay
2.) would get rid of the necessity of 3rd party sellers (poor Chribba's business meme)

as to the other ideas ive read.....well its a balance debate for allowing them to dock up.

+1 on the idea
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2014-10-15 21:56:56 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

You asked when the last time a super was killed in a POS CSMA. Obviously a super inside a POS storage facility isn't engaged in PvP. Maybe you should frame your question better, and explicitly state what information you are looking for.

How about you explain how docking supers in a station will result in more PvP?
How about you explain why super's should gain the enormous list of benefits (direct transport to your stored super by Jump Clones, Insurance, Contracts and Station Trades, 100% safety, etc) that come wiht storing a super in a station, as opposed to a POS.


Sorry, I should have clarified "killed in an online or sieged POS". It didn't matter that two supers were killed in an offline csma- those could have been any arbitrary assets in the POS that would have been destroyed.

Docking supers in a a station allows those pilots to engage in combat in other ships, when they would have not done so otherwise. Most fights in eve are at the subcap level, so excluding pilots from the majority of fights in the game does not help things explode.

I suggested a drawback (a substantial aggression timer) to accompany the ability to dock. Addressing your concerns specifically:
-We can already jump to the station in system with our stored super in the CSMA (if this was a common occurrence). Undock, instawarp interceptor to the POS, board your super. Docking would not change that line of events.
-If CCP does not want supers insured, then they could just set the insurance levels low like the old t2 ship insurance. If supers could be insured, they may even be used in combat more and die more often, because there would be less isk loss to the owner.
-Supers are one of the few items that can't be contracted and traded already, I don't understand why this is a bad thing. Do you do super scams that you're afraid will no longer be possible?
-I don't understand your 100% safety comment. Ships in a station are only 100% safe if they stay docked. With upcoming changes to medical clones and jump drives, people will have to seriously consider where they store their assets. If someone were to attack a territory and keep all of their supers docked in one station, then the defending force could camp that station and control the war as long as a camp is maintained (and vice versa).
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#23 - 2014-10-15 22:17:34 UTC
"Hey guys, I have a great idea. Let's make it easier to own a super."

No. Get rekt. In fact, ALL supers should get rekt. They're a blight on this game, and they always have been. You sir, over there. Yes you. You are a blight.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
The Revenant Order
#24 - 2014-10-15 22:17:51 UTC
See: Malkalen Incident.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||

Sigras
Conglomo
#25 - 2014-10-15 23:20:36 UTC
The fact that super caps can only be docked in POSs is the only thing that is going to make the long distance travel nerf interesting.

5 Titans per POS or 10 supercarriers per POS is going to mean very clear staging systems with 3-4 separate moons just for CSMAs If you can dock them, they'll be just like the other 100% safe items in game.

They should be alliance level assets and require alliance level logistics.
Sigras
Conglomo
#26 - 2014-10-15 23:39:26 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
-I don't understand your 100% safety comment. Ships in a station are only 100% safe if they stay docked. With upcoming changes to medical clones and jump drives, people will have to seriously consider where they store their assets. If someone were to attack a territory and keep all of their supers docked in one station, then the defending force could camp that station and control the war as long as a camp is maintained (and vice versa).

the point is that in low sec you cannot camp a station to prevent a cap ship from leaving. It will simply cyno out before its invulnerability timer runs out.

If it required a CSMA then at least you could RF the tower which means you could RF their towers to provoke a necessary response and then attack them elsewhere when their towers come out of RF. This vulnerability does not exist when you can dock super caps.

Also you could theoretically dock an unlimited number of super caps in a station but only 5 titans or 10 super carriers can dock in a POS and then only if the POS is amarr with absolutely no defenses.

This means huge numbers of POSs would be required to maintain multiple super cap caches which is how it should be.
Tikitina
Doomheim
#27 - 2014-10-16 03:08:50 UTC
No the Titans or Supercarriers docking in stations.

I do support owners being able to reprocess them at 66% efficiency if they don't want them anymore.

Amyclas Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-10-16 03:22:05 UTC
But then I wonder which is easier to implement, docking supers or fixing corp roles?

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#29 - 2014-10-16 03:22:42 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
-I don't understand your 100% safety comment. Ships in a station are only 100% safe if they stay docked. With upcoming changes to medical clones and jump drives, people will have to seriously consider where they store their assets. If someone were to attack a territory and keep all of their supers docked in one station, then the defending force could camp that station and control the war as long as a camp is maintained (and vice versa).

the point is that in low sec you cannot camp a station to prevent a cap ship from leaving. It will simply cyno out before its invulnerability timer runs out.

If it required a CSMA then at least you could RF the tower which means you could RF their towers to provoke a necessary response and then attack them elsewhere when their towers come out of RF. This vulnerability does not exist when you can dock super caps.

Also you could theoretically dock an unlimited number of super caps in a station but only 5 titans or 10 super carriers can dock in a POS and then only if the POS is amarr with absolutely no defenses.

This means huge numbers of POSs would be required to maintain multiple super cap caches which is how it should be.


Just to point out.

Sov is changing to an occupational system in the near future which means the CFC will likely be reduced to just holding deklein. There isn't enough room to store all of the supers/titans in a POS network of just 80 systems. There really isn't any reason to not give these ships some sort of station to dock in anymore. They arn't special, they are not rare and we already have huge stockpiles of them. Plus CCP want to make stations destructable.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#30 - 2014-10-16 03:32:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
-I don't understand your 100% safety comment. Ships in a station are only 100% safe if they stay docked. With upcoming changes to medical clones and jump drives, people will have to seriously consider where they store their assets. If someone were to attack a territory and keep all of their supers docked in one station, then the defending force could camp that station and control the war as long as a camp is maintained (and vice versa).

the point is that in low sec you cannot camp a station to prevent a cap ship from leaving. It will simply cyno out before its invulnerability timer runs out.

If it required a CSMA then at least you could RF the tower which means you could RF their towers to provoke a necessary response and then attack them elsewhere when their towers come out of RF. This vulnerability does not exist when you can dock super caps.

Also you could theoretically dock an unlimited number of super caps in a station but only 5 titans or 10 super carriers can dock in a POS and then only if the POS is amarr with absolutely no defenses.

This means huge numbers of POSs would be required to maintain multiple super cap caches which is how it should be.


Just to point out.

Sov is changing to an occupational system in the near future which means the CFC will likely be reduced to just holding deklein. There isn't enough room to store all of the supers/titans in a POS network of just 80 systems. There really isn't any reason to not give these ships some sort of station to dock in anymore. They arn't special, they are not rare and we already have huge stockpiles of them. Plus CCP want to make stations destructable.


If and when CCP provides destructable stations, then we can talk about docking supercaps in them.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2014-10-16 04:05:10 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


If and when CCP provides destructable stations, then we can talk about docking supercaps in them.


Or we can just let them dock already. Seriously, what exactly do we gain from forcing them to be permanently in space and manned by a high SP pilot?
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#32 - 2014-10-16 08:26:36 UTC
A super is a risky ship the way it currently is handled, a good risk imo. Allowing them to dock, not only do you remove that risk but you also transfer the risk of the ship in essence only to the production of it. Allowing them to dock should in that case also come with the ability to build them risk-free in a station.

Obviously it would also kill the business I'm in, the fact that 3rd partying became a thing is a very neat outcome of the sandbox and the result of supers not being able to dock so that type of profession would be remove/very limited with allowing them to be docked too.

However, I am fine with allowing them to dock (and get insured or whatever) - but in order to keep my profession (and all that amazing ISK obviously! Lol), preventing supers to be traded, put on market, contracted, stored in hangar divisions etc would allow the pilots to roam around doing things while at the same time still need people like myself to actually get them traded.

That could be an option of interest even to me.

/c

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

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Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-10-16 09:48:24 UTC
I flew a Hel for two months before tiring of the 'space coffin' thing. Having the ship be both super powerful and super gimped does not constitute game balance. If these things are allowed to dock, they'll have to be nerfed a bit too, such as getting rid of total ewar immunity etc. But I wouldn't bother flying one again unless I *could* dock so +1

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Vittoria Keen
Hel.inc
#34 - 2014-10-16 10:10:11 UTC
Chribba wrote:
A super is a risky ship the way it currently is handled, a good risk imo. Allowing them to dock, not only do you remove that risk but you also transfer the risk of the ship in essence only to the production of it. Allowing them to dock should in that case also come with the ability to build them risk-free in a station.

Obviously it would also kill the business I'm in, the fact that 3rd partying became a thing is a very neat outcome of the sandbox and the result of supers not being able to dock so that type of profession would be remove/very limited with allowing them to be docked too.

However, I am fine with allowing them to dock (and get insured or whatever) - but in order to keep my profession (and all that amazing ISK obviously! Lol), preventing supers to be traded, put on market, contracted, stored in hangar divisions etc would allow the pilots to roam around doing things while at the same time still need people like myself to actually get them traded.

That could be an option of interest even to me.

/c


i agree with this allow them to dock for refitting and things but do not allow them to be traded, insured,sold on market, contracted,

also to make things more intresting only allow them to dock in SOV null, CCP should create a module for ihubs like the one needed to build them for storing them and there should also be a extra module for the station its self allowing them to be stored, however make it so this module means there cannot be other modules installed like medical centres (no JC installing) or offices (no corp hangers) make it so that if people want to use a station to dock there super then that is basically the whole purpose of that station and nothing more,
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2014-10-16 17:29:00 UTC
Vittoria Keen wrote:

i agree with this allow them to dock for refitting and things but do not allow them to be traded, insured,sold on market, contracted,

also to make things more intresting only allow them to dock in SOV null, CCP should create a module for ihubs like the one needed to build them for storing them and there should also be a extra module for the station its self allowing them to be stored, however make it so this module means there cannot be other modules installed like medical centres (no JC installing) or offices (no corp hangers) make it so that if people want to use a station to dock there super then that is basically the whole purpose of that station and nothing more,


This is an incredibly amazing idea. The ability to dock could be a sov item that must be online in order to dock or undock the supers. That would cost the alliance isk maintenance, provoke PVP opportunities, and still allow people to own supers without dedicating one highly skilled pilot to the coffin. The vast majority of supers won't be stored in a POS because the roles are so messed up and leaves the corp open to eazy, huge, theft.

I'm fine with not being able to trade them or contract them in a station, as well as not being able to insure them at 100% (although I don't think insurance is a bad idea on them).
Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate
Optimistic Wasteland
#36 - 2014-10-17 12:05:09 UTC
Im sorry, but this would require a rework of every station model. So that the titan doesn't engulf the station when undocking.
Anthar Thebess
#37 - 2014-10-17 12:13:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
No.
Those ships will be already overpowered after jump drive nerf.
You could easily drop super fleet on every station defensive timer, and repair station, while enemy fleet is shooting you.
If you are low on armor, dock, click repair, undock.

This could also raise multiple other issues.
Supers will be more than fine after those changes.

What CCP can do is to create 1 station in each NPC nullsec region where supers could dock ( so when players are making a brake).
But this should cost both for docking and undocking those behemoths, undock should also have delay.

"You have selected to undock your Aeon from station. Local authorities charged you 500 mil for necessary preparations. Evacuation of all personnel and assets from hangar bay nr 74 is in the process, after every thing will be cleared. Capital bay doors will be open , and your ship will be released from space. ETA 1h 45min"
Anthar Thebess
#38 - 2014-10-17 12:29:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


If and when CCP provides destructable stations, then we can talk about docking supercaps in them.


Or we can just let them dock already. Seriously, what exactly do we gain from forcing them to be permanently in space and manned by a high SP pilot?


Most of the people use holder alts.
So you train alt that have 6-7mln sp and if sits in the super while high SP pilot do other stuff.

Now when you have multi character training this is even more easy.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#39 - 2014-10-17 12:41:01 UTC
Querns wrote:
An alternate way to solve the undock games would be to only allow supercaps to dock at conquerable 0.0 stations. Note this is not the same thing as a player-built outpost -- conquerable stations are the three stations that are seeded in every conquerable 0.0 region. For example, Deklein's conqs are VFK, 3JN9, and CZD. Currently, these stations are completely useless, having been long-obsoleted by Crius. Giving them the ability to moor supercaps would make them hugely relevant again.

I like this idea.

However, I wonder if we should be thinking in terms of regions...
In the days I was involved in Sov warfare and so forth, the majority of sov holders were working on a constellation basis (if nothing else it meant you were never more than half a dozen jumps from good fights) with much smaller alliances. Only the really big groups held entire regions.
If things head in that direction again (and I hope that they do) then such limited access could lead to coallitions building around those recourses. Far from becoming a conflict driver their rarity could actually limit conflict.
I would also suggest that the ability to withdraw such assets from the conflict zone would be important, giving alliances the ability to pull out strategic assets to "fight another day" if null becomes a lot more fluid. I would therefore suggest that NPC stations, perhaps even specific types of NPC station, would also be valuable additions...
Perhaps, for outposts, a station service platform could be added which allows "Careening" of Supers (no access to Fitting, Repairshop...etc) at a significant cost to other station services...
WILLY TROPICAL
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-10-17 13:00:34 UTC
Everything is OP for Anthar Tebess except his ratting carriers.
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