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Dev blog: All That Is Gold Does Not Glitter - Data Sites, Expeditions

First post First post First post
Author
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#121 - 2014-10-15 22:05:51 UTC
Fantastic changes. This should make day trips into wormholes actually make sense for explorers now. The loot rebalanace is welcome, but part of what made data/relic sites so poor is that they were farmed to death. Right now, the loot from these sites has slowly recovered, making relic/data sites better now than probably any time since Odyssey. However, I am worried we are going to slide back into the problem Odyssey created, where demand for the lot stays constant but due to the updates the supply skyrockets, and as a result data/relic sites actually get worse after the patch.

IMO, a better rebalance to these sites would to make the loot tables for HS / LS / NS more separated, so that loot in HS generally only drops in the HS sites, the loot in LS mostly only drops in LS sites, etc. That way, over-farming of sites in HS does not thereby ruin loot values in LS / NS, etc.
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2014-10-15 22:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Dalilus
might I suggest ccp hire the geniuses that came up with the new wow expansion? 600,0000 new subscriptions and rising mostly by providing all players MORE content, specially for those vets that had played the game for years and quit.
Carribean Queen
Vadimus Quarrier Works
#123 - 2014-10-15 22:22:46 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
We hope that you like these changes and as an addition to the devblog, I can also add that we've upped the spawn frequency of the Besieged Covert Research Facility as well.

[Update for clarity]

Other related stuff we are looking into:

* Rogue Drones
* Besieged Covert Research Facility difficulty
* Escalation 'boss' loot drops
* Further work on item volumes
* Naming the Escalations in your Journal
* Lowering the jumps required in Escalations
* Increasing the time limit on Escalations
* Adding more loot to Data Sites in general
* Revising existing loot values
* Allowing fleet warp ins to Escalations

Not guaranteed for the upcoming Phoebe release but they are known issues that we want to tackle.


PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE ROGUE DRONE ASTEROID INFESTATION.

That site is the one thing every time I see one makes me get all stabby.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#124 - 2014-10-15 22:26:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
Might have been posted before but the need skill text in red does not do its job as well as it should.

While red is suppose to make it stick out, for some it just causes them to skip that line when they are reading over the text.

That is why I think it would look better with just a "Note:" before the line or a box around the text.

The way the text reads now also misses an opportunity to remind the player the game has a market and that skill books can be purchased there.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#125 - 2014-10-15 22:30:45 UTC
Dalilus wrote:
might I suggest ccp hire the geniuses that came up with the new wow expansion? 600,0000 new subscriptions and rising mostly by providing all players MORE content, specially for those vets that had played the game for years and quit.



you are aware those HTFU elitist pushed those folks back to wow and look whats happened now that place is making even more money than before..lol thanks eve players keep up the great work of keeping this community small..
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#126 - 2014-10-15 22:49:47 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Hey I have one thought,

Don't tell people which structure to shoot honestly. It's that inability for people to actually use the EvE Wiki, which tells people to shoot, that seperates the good explorers from everyone looking to just run the site and leave. I have come in on a lot of sites that were just cleared but the escalation trigger was never done.

You cant spoon feed exploration, this is supposed to be a profession that makes people think.



But while you are balancing, could you add rats back to data sites? There is no risk with a lot of the exploration sites especially in high sec. Since you are adding in more loot with better rewards the risk needs to be raised more.


We've not put the messages in all the 'parent' sites. Just a few to see how it goes for now.
As for the reintroduction of the rats. Maybe later on but not for the current Phoebe release.

Have to disagree with Obsidian Hawk here.
The way it currently is you go and look up a site guide, or you have to shoot EVERYTHING in the site.

Maybe introduce some non module related 'analyse area' effect (links off the Deep scan panel or something) which creates the pop up telling you what interesting notes you have found in the area. Give anywhere with rat wrecks a 0.01% chance of creating a sec related escalation, because hey, more people travelling and doing things other than missions or rating the same system continuously is good. Then any sig that would normally escalate escalates like currently also.

That means the players have to interact with the system, but it's not the current random shoot or read an off site guide.
All the pop ups are doing is integrating the off site guides into EVE, which isn't terrible.
Grarr Dexx
Cassowaries
Accept Your Fate
#127 - 2014-10-15 23:21:01 UTC
So a while back, you allowed all these high-sec frigate unrateds and DEDs into lowsec. But if you do an unrated one, and it escalates, it'll send you right back into highsec. That's just terrible.
Credacom
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2014-10-16 00:50:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Credacom
Wow --- not at all excited to do data sites after this.....Really, we need a loot OVERHAUL for data sites, not tweaks - these are just......... tweaks. The whole rest of the gams is changing rapidly, but these data sites changes are more like 2012 eve expansion styles. Go big, you cant mess it up more than it already is......come on, you can do it !

All the other fantastic changes happening in the game got me excited about a new data site loot table....this is just......ugh

Question , what about data sites in C4 - C6 WH space? Poor C4 space.....

Today data sites in C4-C6 WHs have scater can value that is pretty much 50% of the same relic sites and they have 5 more cans to hack (time).

Data sites in high-end WHs have become the site trash of space unless you are going to cap escalate them. Why should a sites value be only because you can escalate it?
Souxie Alduin
Anarchy in the Eve
#129 - 2014-10-16 00:52:15 UTC
CCP Lebowski wrote:
"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king."


Team Space Glitter, the true heirs to the throne of Gondor and Arnor.

(Thanks for the excuse to cart out my favourite Tolkien poem RedDawn! Big smile)


Isn't this more appropriate for exploration?Smile

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.


Also yay for faction materials.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#130 - 2014-10-16 01:04:06 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
CCP RedDawn wrote:
I can also add that we've upped the spawn frequency of the Besieged Covert Research Facility as well.


I'm thrilled you are doing an exploration pass, I really am. But if you think the problem with Besieged Covert Research Facility sites is that there aren't ENOUGH of them, then, um... I have bad news for you.

I routinely fly through active (and out of the way) low-sec systems with multiple besieged sites that no one is bothering to run. There are already way more sites than necessary to support the interest in doing them, which is, I'm sad to say, nearly zilch (I do it.. I can count on one hand the # of other people I've seen running them, and that hand is a fist). Upping the spawn frequency is not going to help anything.

The problem with besieged sites currently, in no particular order:

* requires a HAC or T3 to run; that's an expensive ship to take into the current low-sec meta
* requires your HAC/T3 to be in an easy to find site for upwards of 25 minutes (depending on how many cruiser vs. BS spawns you get)
* requires your HAC/T3 to fight mobs that can warp scram you out to 36km! (while in an easy to find site for upwards of 25 minutes)
* drops very unexciting loot that does not even come close to paying off the cost of ship(s) being put at risk; the ship skin BPCs go for peanuts and those plus covert research tools are all you can rely on getting regularly. The thukker component lab BPCs helped a bit, but the prices on those are crashing too. If you manage to get a hyperspatial BPC then woot! payday! but that's not frequent enough to really help the isk/hr

The basic problem with the amount of time required/risk is the fact that you can (and often do) get 3 BS spawns in the first wave + 4 BS/1 cruiser spawn in the second wave. This takes a stupid amount of time to blow up all while sitting vulnerable as per the reasons described above.

Either change these sites so they need to be scanned, or else make it so that no more than 2 BS ships can spawn per wave. Or just get rid of the first wave entirely. The isk/hr/risk ratio just isn't attractive currently.


Besiged Covert Research Facilities are currently my main income source and are in my opinion in a perfect place right now in terms of reward, difficulty and most importantly FUN! If it takes you 25 minutes to do a besiged site, it's because you don't have enough DPS. They have a mean active tank so running them with your 500 DPS Ishtar is inefficient. I complete them in five minutes solo with a 1.2k DPS ship and earn on average ~20m/site just from bounties, ship skins, and covert research tools. It is way more if you count the 10 run Prototype Hyperspatial Accelerator BPCs, Omega implants, etc.

They're also very well designed and fun! There's three different NPCs (cruisers that web and point, battleships that web and point, and battleships with a huge buffer and 900k bounty) that spawn in a random combination, making the sites unpredictale. The web and point combined with the fact that they're anomalies and therefore don't need to be probed down, the short completion time, and the reward perfectly hits the sweetspot for a high risk, high reward player like myself. I've done everything from L1 missions to C5 capital escalations, and besiged sites are the only PVE activty I enjoy doing. Not the "ha ha! I'll get so much ISK from this I won't have to do it again for weeks" joy you get from capital escalation, but actual enjoyment from the activity itself.

The current difficulty also adds content for everyone else. I've killed a guy running besiged sites in a Nestor twice. I am running them in a Marauder myself. By increasing or decreasing the difficulty you'd either end up with people in Ishtars running them in five minutes instead of 25, or force us to fleet up several Ishtars to complete them as a group. Both options would stop our blingy battleships from undocking, and no one wants that!

Besiged sites are currently a very unique high risk, high reward PVE activity unlike anything else in Eve. Please don't try to change them just because you can't efficiently run them with your Ishtar like everything else.

I do approve of giving me and my Nestor friend more reason to undock by increasing the spawnrate, though!

-Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Greyhart en Welle
Imminent Collapses
#131 - 2014-10-16 01:04:58 UTC
The old "text" is more engaging, more fun, which is what the Career Agents are for. You have just a few chances to get a trial player to like your game, and start a paid account. And the old text is more accurate, as someone else already pointed out.
Why not just skip the text all together? It makes the agent more real, the situation more understandable, and provides a reason for the mission in the first place. GeW
Biomass MeNOW
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2014-10-16 01:22:28 UTC
A much appreciated change, to be sure.

But things need to be removed from data/relic sites as well -

All things associated with COSMOS items. Since CCP abandoned the COSMOS aspect of the game few/no one bothers to use it as anything other than a (one time) standings gain grind. The items that you get for the missions are pretty much useless.

Thus the building materials for those items need to be removed from Data/Relic sites and moved to the COSMOS containers, and replaced with something that is more useful.

Rig components also need to be removed. There are countless sources to obtain rig components, they are pointless wastes of time in exploration content unless there is an increased chance for more rare (advanced) components. Standard components are just so much trash.
Sam Spock
The Arnold Connection
#133 - 2014-10-16 01:31:52 UTC
This all sounds very nice. Especially the sites in Wormholes.

One thing I think you may want to look at is the escalations from highsec unrated sties. They don't seem to match the difficulty with the parent site. The Guristas Hideaway goes to a 4/10?!?! While I like to get those I think it just wrong.

You should consider increasing the rate they happen a bit and adjusting them so that the Burrow can escalate to the 1/10, the hideaway to the 2/10, the refuge to the 3/10 and the Den to the 4/10. Can't comment on the ones in low and null as I have not done those.

Just now looking at the wiki it shows more of what I am talking about but appears to be inaccurate because for the Guristas at least I have gotten 4/10 from both the hideaway and the refuge and the 5/10 from the den.

I also would like to see the probe scanner be able to at least retain what info you had about the type of signature until it despawns. You would still have to re-scan to go to it if you docked or left the system but you would at least know if something new showed up.

Giving you Inconsistent grammar, speilling and Punct-uation since 1974!

Haijuswo Kup
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2014-10-16 02:07:08 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:

The WH Class 1 to 3 sites are identical to the null sec sites currently encountered and they have the new loot included.
So that should answer both questions.


FINALLY a reason for solo explorers to enter wormholes other than as possible shortcuts. I've been wanting to spend more time in WH space but unless you have a decent sized group with you or you're flying a T3 there was really no point for someone flying solo.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#135 - 2014-10-16 02:10:26 UTC
Please inform us when you update the verbiage in the new items.

As with all items stats and uses need to be easy to find. Unless they are just "fluff."Smile

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Sevak Indares
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2014-10-16 03:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sevak Indares
Hi there,

I have some questions purely about the expedition changes.

Changes to expedition escalation percentages

The dev blog states:

Quote:
We have also increased the percentage chance of the rarer types of Expedition occurring as we simply found these figures to be too low. These combined changes should help somewhat in bringing this ‘hidden’ content to the surface for you to enjoy.


I see from previous dev responses that you won't give us the actual percentage changes you intend to implement. While I understand why you don't want to give us precise numbers, could you please give us at least an indication. I.e., whether these percentages will be increased slightly, moderately or substantially. It is very difficult to give feedback when the dev blog simply states that you will increase a percentage by an undisclosed amount. Right now, all players can do is 'wait and see' in response to this change.

Changes to 'boss' loot tables

The dev blog states:

Quote:
Additionally, a ‘Boss’ loot table revision is in progress and we’re adjusting where necessary


Could you please provide further details of why you believe a loot table revision is 'necessary' and what your goals are in relation to this revision. Again, it is very hard to give feedback on this proposed change when this level of detail is provided.

For example, are you revising the loot tables because you believe the percentages are too low? alternatively, are you revising them because certain sites are too easy (i.e. the serpentis 10/10) and their loot should be swapped with a correspondingly difficult site (the serpentis 10/10 equivalent expedition).

Comments on expedition changes generally

Obviously my comments above are pretty dry but I'm not opposed to changing expeditions. At present they are a criminally underused area of pve content. I say criminally because if they were viable from an isk/hr perspective, they would breath more life into nul sec. This is because they encourage travel and interaction with a larger amount of space/players than static anomolies.
Fish Hunter
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2014-10-16 03:55:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Fish Hunter
One thing to look into with expeditions. I've gotten a couple in the past that took me from nullsec, a dozen jumps across empire, then back into nullsec ,shortest route, why would i want to go through highsec when exploring in null. I've gotten nullsec escalations that tried to send me up to 15 jumps on the first waypoint, too far. I've had alot of fun running escalations (multiple parts) in highsec & lowsec because they can all be done in frig or cruiser hulls and scouting is easy there.

i've never done completed any multi part escalations in nullsec, except ones that start in lowsec and the final one is in null. nullsec escalations are in my opinion generally too hard, they usually require 1-3 battleships or battlecruisers. You could run them with more people in smaller ships but rewards scale horribly sharing with multiple people so I never bother. Either the rewards need to scale better when sharing or even better make them doable in a reasonable amount of time by a pair of hacs/t3s.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#138 - 2014-10-16 04:39:37 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Hey I have one thought,

Don't tell people which structure to shoot honestly. It's that inability for people to actually use the EvE Wiki, which tells people to shoot, that seperates the good explorers from everyone looking to just run the site and leave. I have come in on a lot of sites that were just cleared but the escalation trigger was never done.

You cant spoon feed exploration, this is supposed to be a profession that makes people think.



But while you are balancing, could you add rats back to data sites? There is no risk with a lot of the exploration sites especially in high sec. Since you are adding in more loot with better rewards the risk needs to be raised more.


We've not put the messages in all the 'parent' sites. Just a few to see how it goes for now.
As for the reintroduction of the rats. Maybe later on but not for the current Phoebe release.


I cannot disagree more strongly with the sentiments of Obsidian Hawk. Exploration in game should be just that, in game. I should not be required to leave the game to get to the next step in anything PVE related. Testing my google skills is not relevant to my serious business internet spaceships skills. A happy balance would be to give us some sort of journal entry with lots of text talking about a few different things "rumored" to have worked in the past, or some sort of vague hint. Expecting me to shoot everything once or to go to an external site is silly (wasting time shooting everything) or immersion breaking (going to google/wiki).

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon

Casey Ambraelle
VoidRunner's Inc.
#139 - 2014-10-16 04:44:26 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
I'm fairly disappointed by the Data Site changes. To be frank, it doesn't go far enough to fixing the problems. Yes, the ISK/Site is less than Relic Sites, but it's also the size of the loot that is a problem, where a Covops frigate or Astero can't do more than a few Data sites before filling up, in comparison to Relic sites.

Problems/Comments:
-snip-
Suggestions For Improvement:
-snip-


Pretty much agree with everything said there just wanted to offer a counter point to a few

Why limit it to just science skillbooks, make it any skillbook. On the high end you loot a rank 9-10 or better, mid range is rank 5-7, low end is rank 1-4, super rare officer grade is 12+ . The NPC sell orders help set the price, it would be awesome to get a data site that had a capital or even better a super capital skill book in it or a BPC to build one.

Instead of making the cans unscannable make the site despawn counter start when the first can is hacked not the last. Add flavor text where you get a notification in local or the new shiny notification system saying that you've triggered an auto system wipe, cascading failure, other technical failure and have approximately x time before complete system failure. Have it give you an aggression timer so there's an on screen indication of how long you have to finish and gtfo. Have the actual time to failure vary by +/- 20% of the approximate. Use the ghost site mechanics and make sites more dynamic the site doesn't have to explode or have npc's warp in but they could and it could be at 96 seconds, 144 seconds, or right on the 2 min approximate or whatever x time was given. Instead of having different cans you have to fly around to; have one big structure thats footprint is bigger than 5km so you can't orbit it, with x different nodes you have to hack that are all within 5km of each other so there's more risk by having to sit still longer. Have each instance of a site of the same name differ not only in loot drops but the environment itself. Will npc's show up? Will they shoot me? Shoot the thingy I'm hacking? Will nothing happen?


So much potential...
imbaRabbit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#140 - 2014-10-16 04:57:14 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:

  • Consider making the Data/Relic Site cans unscannable with Cargo Scanners, and balancing out the loot between more of the cans in a site. The current state makes it too easy to cherry pick the valuable cans and leave the rest, or skip the frequently completely empty ones. In addition, look at ways of improving the Hacking minigame as mentioned above.


  • This.