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FW lp change suggestions: The Dirge of Farmers

Author
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#1 - 2014-10-15 22:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
If others could propose feedback as well on how to best curb the LP farming and lean rewards towards pvp pilots a bit more, while drastically helping the southern faction war become better in line with the more vibrant northern faction warzone, and lastly some QoL changes.

1) Forbid access of all t2/3 hulls from entering FW mission complexes. Not outpost objectives, but agent MISSION acceleration gate restrictions as seen in the details before accepting normal missions.

2) Dual timers that tick back when idle. One for the offensive side and another for the defensive side, both frozen as the single one does now when enagements are within the 30km radius.

3) The formula for the payout of a D-plex: Plex size > LP BASE * (%Contested /100 ) * 0.75. If i'm not mistaken. Reduce the final computation to .50, have the system donate the phantom LP that is lost in the balance calculation to the Ihub.
This will end the need - the supposed need - of farmers that are seen as the helping hand of the plexing machine when a faction is tier 3 or above and help us maintain higher tiers both in remote systems and at home systems by simply Dplexing. It will also give us a reason to get rid of the spare plexes in home systems, instead of running them to get them off of the overview with little benefit to the most dedicated pilots that try their best to keep a system stable and from bleeding. Not to mention it will save us tons of LP in donations.

4) Add a massive cap drain on warp activation on the Warp Core Stabilizer module itself. That way these fits get trolled with a flat tire every 5 AU's trying to make warp with, say, the stacked penalties of having three stabs on. That should slow farming down nicely in a great FML way, while giving the increased warp core stability a nice semi realistic setback and keeping the actual effectiveness of the module (something people PO'ed have not admitted) intact.
Moglarr
Operation Meatshield
#2 - 2014-10-15 22:53:56 UTC
If a system is a high priority it would be defended by players. Wouldn't it?

Ultimately, I do take issue with the amount of LP farming I see happening. Sometimes it is fun to chase farmers around, but a lot of the time is it even more boring than running a plex. That being said, if I chase a farmer away I am usually spiteful enough to run the clock on the plex I found him in and thanks to the unreasonable tank on the plex rats can rest safe knowing that he isn't capping a different plex than the one I am currently in. What I find most annoying is when I do catch them, shoot them for a while and then watch helplessly as they warp off, but hey that is how he chose to fit his ship and his combat ability suffers for it (and I am apparently no better than an NPC at that point). Do I think he should be able to contest one of my systems? No, obviously not. But as the mechanics stand he does and it means that I have a lot of dplexing to do once he has had his fill of LP and that sucks.

A lot of farmers are nice enough to leave when you ask them to, though. I wish more would do that.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#3 - 2014-10-16 00:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Most definitely, but during off hours and before the NPC buff, there used to be solo Russian Condors that would plex all night in Heyd, OMS, or Lad.

And, honestly, I've never really tried to ask any to vacate. ::scratches head::

Ultimately, I want the upgrade system to do SOMEthing for pvp. Not many of us use the indie slots.

The extermination of SB's from low would make a massive impact on brother militias, where these bombers infest space and the reason half their plexes are empty.
Paranoid Loyd
#4 - 2014-10-16 00:13:50 UTC
Unfortunately, making it PVP based, makes it exploitable.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Master Sergeant MacRobert
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
Local Is Primary
#5 - 2014-10-16 00:14:21 UTC
I would just reduce the bonus to LP from FW Tiers and then see how much of an effect that has.

You do not need 150% bonus at Tier 4 for your LP (250% payout it too much).

However, the penalty to LP at Tier 1 is foolish and should be removed.

The payout should be around 100% at 1, 120% at 2, 140% at 3, 165% at 4 and 185% at 5.

You then get a discount on something instead (perhaps a discount on tags required in the LP Store).

Then see how many actually want to jump in and run missions for the "winning" side.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"

Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#6 - 2014-10-16 00:48:26 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I would just reduce the bonus to LP from FW Tiers and then see how much of an effect that has.

You do not need 150% bonus at Tier 4 for your LP (250% payout it too much).

However, the penalty to LP at Tier 1 is foolish and should be removed.

The payout should be around 100% at 1, 120% at 2, 140% at 3, 165% at 4 and 185% at 5.

You then get a discount on something instead (perhaps a discount on tags required in the LP Store).

Then see how many actually want to jump in and run missions for the "winning" side.



I doubt people will fall below t2 with these defensive plex auto-donate system. It would have to be against a full push and a hellish NPC upgrading of owned systems. But I could only imagine. I really do enjoy the current payout when we are pushing high tiers, and the mission arguement does not apply too well in the Gallente theatre. No SB missioning up here.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#7 - 2014-10-16 00:50:23 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Unfortunately, making it PVP based, makes it exploitable.



I haven't really introduced anything new pvp-wise in any of this, just uber nerfs to solo LP gains.
Paranoid Loyd
#8 - 2014-10-16 00:56:30 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
Ultimately, I want the upgrade system to do SOMEthing for pvp.

I guess I misinterpreted what you were saying.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#9 - 2014-10-16 01:00:42 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
Ultimately, I want the upgrade system to do SOMEthing for pvp.

I guess I misinterpreted what you were saying.


Ah. Ye, the indie buffs are cool, but these npc's could really f* with offensives and make donations more relevant besides upping tiers.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#10 - 2014-10-16 19:10:25 UTC
I changed my mind on that last NPC proposed change. Forgive my brief lapse of retardation, as I see now that change would discourage pvp in at its best. The 1v1's and small gang that, at the moment, completely ignore the npc in most cases before a plex engagement. Maybe better:
*Have the current NPC receive spawns in respect to system level. At lvl 1 no respawn after clearing npc, and five spawns for the fully upgraded V.
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-10-20 11:47:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Balshem Rozenzweig
I see a lot less of farmers nowadays. I think it's thanks to the active tank the rats have now. I'd guess it's harder to break that tank with 4x WCS punisher Roll

You're kicking a dead horse trying to nerf the income for low SP characters that cannot do missions (while you can - for a lot more than they can make lol).

I think most of them won't be arsed to stay with the game anyway (dunno why - I meet quite a lot of newbies and I'm getting a suspicion they rage quit when confronted with endless timer starring. I enjoy that part of game - allows me to listen to e radios \o/), but for the sake of those that do - I hope plexing will remain to be a steady source of income to those that need it.

Some people are so fixated on farmers they forget normal people farm too. I always wonder how they make their money in game.

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe

exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
#12 - 2014-10-20 13:29:55 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
I would like others to propose feedback as well on how to best curb the LP farming alts and shift rewards towards pvp pilots.

2) Dual timers that tick back when idle. One for the offensive side and another for the defensive side, both frozen as the single one does now when engagement are within the 30km radius. Seeing a half hour Novice can only be equaled in its lameness by an empty militia alt hull defended by a nullsec Garmur main.


bad idea, if it be applied -> results to "some systems never get finished any FW complex" why? because heavy traffic, many neutrals etc. (like Huola, Siseide, Kourm etc heavily defended and traffic system in A/M FW zone).

When rewards from FW get down, many ppl leave FW, because they have not enoughs ISKs for fights... It is much hard hold your sec status up when FW members get so many attacks from neutrals and sometimes do not meet any WT...


I prefer something like "contribution reward/discount" for FW members who actively shoot iHubs, do PvP or contribute to theirs side militias

sry for my English :-(

Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#13 - 2014-10-20 13:38:12 UTC
If he thinks the farmers are bad now he should have come around before they changed the rats.
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-10-20 15:48:48 UTC
Just make FW missions be Anomic Agent/Team missions (aka Burner missions). That should eliminate the ability of solo SBs doing FW missions.
Ashwind Houssa
Therapists Inc
#15 - 2014-10-20 16:12:01 UTC
The FW missions farmers are of little to no concern because they don't really impact warzone control. Besides, getting a friend and running htem in VNIs or Ishtars is so much faster, that I am honestly surprised at how many people still use bombers.

If you really want to stop farmers, ban the Venture from plexes, and increase the DPS check on medium and large plexes.
Mr Duffo
SQUIDS.
#16 - 2014-10-20 20:20:59 UTC
I want more isk

Skeggǫld, Skálmǫld, Skildir ro Klofnir!

Never forget! #OICXmassacre2014

Plato Forko
123 Fake Street
#17 - 2014-10-20 21:32:54 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I would just reduce the bonus to LP from FW Tiers and then see how much of an effect that has.

You do not need 150% bonus at Tier 4 for your LP (250% payout it too much).

However, the penalty to LP at Tier 1 is foolish and should be removed.

The payout should be around 100% at 1, 120% at 2, 140% at 3, 165% at 4 and 185% at 5.

You then get a discount on something instead (perhaps a discount on tags required in the LP Store).

Then see how many actually want to jump in and run missions for the "winning" side.


the problem with this idea is it would nuke the incentive to dplex, which becomes a necessary activity at T3-T4 when there are more systems to defend than to attack. it's already virtually impossible to keep up momentum at T4 even with the current payout structure, it's likely that your idea would lead to a permanent stalemate because the incentive to lead a push just wouldn't be strong enough. the current boom-and-bust cycle is not really so bad when you think about how it enables PvP dynamics, levelling the field would just make for a boring status quo.
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#18 - 2014-10-20 21:45:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaven Lok'ri
Resetting to neutral timers is a good idea. The rest I don't really see a point for.

If you want to really make it more about PvP the easy answer is to restrict the capturable warzone to the border systems to funnel people into conflict with each-other. If you also set up a supply line concept for the behind lines systems (basically, make it so that you need a chain of systems to friendly high sec or your capturable systems become much easier to take) then you would add a large amount of strategy to the system control game.

I would also really love to see FW missions removed entirely.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#19 - 2014-10-21 00:05:09 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
I would like others to propose feedback as well on how to best curb the LP farming alts and shift rewards towards pvp pilots.

1) Forbid access of all t2/3 hulls from entering FW mission complexes.

2) Dual timers that tick back when idle. One for the offensive side and another for the defensive side, both frozen as the single one does now when enagements are within the 30km radius. Seeing a half hour Novice can only be equaled in its lameness by an empty militia alt hull defended by a nullsec Garmur main.

3) Someone smarter than I said this was the formula for the payout of a D-plex: Defensive plex > LP BASE * (%Contested /100 ) * 0.75 Reduce the final computation to .50, add the accumulated enemy timer to a payout completion (when applicable on O and D plexes) and have the system donate the phantom LP that is lost in the balance calculation to the Ihub. This will end the need - the supposed need - of farmers that are seen as the helping hand of the plexing machine when a faction is tier 3 or above and help us maintain higher tiers both in remote systems and at home systems by simply Dplexing. It will also give us a reason to get rid of the spare plexes in home systems, instead of running them to get them off of the overview with little benefit to the most dedicated pilots that try their best to keep a system stable and from bleeding. Not to mention it will save us tons of LP in donations.

4) ::edit::Have the current NPC receive spawns in respect to system level. At lvl 1 no respawn after clearing npc, and five spawns for the fully upgraded V.::edit::


1. Why? Has zero impact upon occupancy (the only reason why farmers were/are an issue), and cuts down on traffic into low-sec because literally nobody will bother running them.

2. No. There are already methods in place for dissuading farmers from running plexes in a system, and it involves the current timer mechanics. Rollbacks only encourage the use of neutral parties (alts or otherwise) to keep people from running down a plex by repeatedly chasing them out. The timer isn't the issue.

3. Dropping the LP bonuses per tier is a much more efficient way of reducing the attractiveness of FW for making isk. It isn't until a faction reaches T3+ that farmers swarm to cash in. Reducing the payout per plex across all tiers only makes defensive plexing less worthwhile at lower tiers, which is when it is usually needed most.

4. Not a terrible idea, the current system upgrades are largely useless.

Said it before, and I'll say it again: Ban WCS from FW plexes. There goes 50% of your problem. Make offensive and defensive plexing equal in terms of effort (killing rats in both) covers the other 50%.
Cattegirn
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-10-23 21:52:41 UTC
Do you guys know how FW is setup to balance out in the long run? It seems on the face of it, that winning in FW leads to more LP through tier upgrade, which means the winning side gets stronger and the losing side gets weaker. Some losing side players also switch sides to the winning team and others just do FW less. So there is a trend to snowball the wining team.

But it's lowsec, so there is no way for one team to really wipe the other one out. So what happens to balance the war? Is there some mechanic that makes it harder for one team to keep the lead, or does the war just reset at some point?

Don't tell me they go forever with one team the winner and the other the loser.
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