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Dev blog: All That Is Gold Does Not Glitter - Data Sites, Expeditions

First post First post First post
Author
KamchatkaALEX
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2014-10-15 20:11:45 UTC
DaOpa wrote:
In regards to "Faction Materials have been added to the all the exploration Data site loot tables."

This is now the 4th NERF done to the COSMOS STATIC Mini profession sites...

Evil

+1 Cry
I hope you don't want add Talocan Takmahl Sleeper and Yan Jung materials in the future
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#102 - 2014-10-15 20:12:39 UTC
Mharius Skjem wrote:
Also reducing the price of minerals is good for everybody, including industrialists.

Bigger ships get cheaper, they get flown more often and blown up more often, leading to increased demand. Everybody wins including the russians who were really hard by the Drone Poo nerf.

It's good for industrialists, not good for miners.

Miners mine the same equivalent vale of T1 goods no matter the cost of minerals: it takes just as long to mine the trit of an Apocalypse whether a unit of trit is worth 3 ISK or 6 ISK. However, it takes longer to mine the value of an exhumer--where most of the cost is in moon goo, not minerals--when the value of minerals is low.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#103 - 2014-10-15 20:16:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
I'm fairly disappointed by the Data Site changes. To be frank, it doesn't go far enough to fixing the problems. Yes, the ISK/Site is less than Relic Sites, but it's also the size of the loot that is a problem, where a Covops frigate or Astero can't do more than a few Data sites before filling up, in comparison to Relic sites.

Problems/Comments:


  • Most salvage is 0.01m3 in size, including rare (Intact Armor Plate, Power Circuit, etc). By comparison, the valuable loot - Datacores and Decryptors are 1m3 each. So you can fit 100 times more site loot from Relic Sites than you can from Data Sites.

  • The Interface BPCs and the items to build them (Electric Conduits etc) were already very low ISK value, and still very bulky, even at 0.5 m3. The removal of Interfaces from the Invention process means they will be worth even less, as there are less applications for them in manufacturing. Other than some very obscure items or Storyline mods, they aren't worth picking up. The changes you've made just add more crap items to the Data sites to sift through or throw away.

  • A lot of the common BPCs found in Data Sites are very low value and low usage, and a lot aren't even worth building. Target Spectrum Breakers, Reactive Armor Hardeners, Medium/Large Micro Jump Drive are all worth less than the price of the materials to build them. Now I know some of this is market driven, but a very large percentage of the BPCs are not worth building, and something needs to change, as part of it is because of low usage/turnover items. Things like Anciliary Armor/Shield modules are worth a bit because of the higher turnaround. We need more items that are worth picking up and building.

  • The addition of more Faction Materials and Industrial Goods seems like a poor addition and won't increase the value of Data Sites with any significance. There aren't enough manufacturing opportunities for these items, and as some have pointed out, it reduces the value of COSMOS sites for those looking for Storyline loot. The value of which, hopefully will increase as the Module Tiercide plays out - right now a lot of them are flat out worse than even Meta level versions.

  • No real changes discussed for fixing Data sites for Drone Regions. Adding Pirate Faction sites to C1-C3 wormholes is an interesting choice - not sure how it fits with the lore, but it at least gives lower level explorers something they can accomplish by themselves in wormholes with a bit of risk so I'm happy with that change.

  • The Skillbook drops that were added to Data Sites are all still NPC seeded, and fairly common and not worth a lot. Right now they are mostly the Rigging and Encrpytion skillbooks. There is a lot of potential to expand on this, but it would require reducing the supply of NPC seeded skillbooks, or adding drops for more valuable ones.

  • None of the changes bring up making the hacking mini-game more interesting. There were a lot of posts about ideas for improving the mini-game, such as giving it multiple cores, having hacking tool drops that we could save between hacking attempts/sites that we could trade on the market... what happened to this???


Suggestions For Improvement:

  • Decrease the size of Datacores and Decryptors to 0.01 m3 to match the size for Salvage. Datacore farming through Research Agents isn't as prevalent as it was before they were added to LP stores in Faction Warfare, so this shouldn't cause a lot of differences moving them through lowsec. Being able to keep more Datacores and Decryptors in a POS for research could generate additional conflict as the value of the items in a research POS could increase. This is also a QOL improvement for those using Laboratories for research, as they'll have to spend less time hauling Datacores/Decryptors to their POS.

  • Remove the Interface BPCs and refund existing ones at a fair rate. Reduce Faction Materials (Electric Conduit) size to 0.01 m3 and find more manufacturing uses for them, if they are going to be kept at all

  • Add better uncommon BPCs to the spawn list that can actually have some value to build, to replace the Target Spectrum Breaker, Reactive Armor Hardener, and other unprofitable items. If you are adding in Industrial Goods for building Storyline modules, maybe seeding some BPCs for those would make sense - but that would have to be balanced against the other ways to acquire them.

  • Increase T2 BPC drop ME/TE to be competitive with invented BPCs - they should be slightly better, considering the rarity. You may also want to look at some of the Capital T2 BPCs that are almost never used, and rebalance. I'm not sure who is putting some of these rigs like a Capital Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II on a capital, except maybe in ALOD situations like this Scanning Phoenix.

  • Add additional Relic Site spawns in Rogue Drone regions, and update drops in Data Sites. Other than the Augmented Drone BPCs there really isn't much value for doing exploration sites out there.

  • Add more valuable skillbook drops, consider removing NPC seeded ones. Making the Science skillbooks drop via Data sites would be a valuable addition and would fit in well.

  • Consider making the Data/Relic Site cans unscannable with Cargo Scanners, and balancing out the loot between more of the cans in a site. The current state makes it too easy to cherry pick the valuable cans and leave the rest, or skip the frequently completely empty ones. In addition, look at ways of improving the Hacking minigame as mentioned above.
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
#104 - 2014-10-15 20:22:53 UTC
"Also on SISI right now faction variations of decryptors are gone, is this a permanent change?"

I hope not. The naming of the Decryptors is so weird, that it looks like a "work in progress" state to me.
I could see making Decryptors uniform and usable for all races. And that's what the prefix "Generic" indicates right now on SiSi.
But what about those two "Generic Occult" Decryptors? Shouldn't they be named "Generic Optimized" then? Makes no sense to me.

Decryptors need a rework anyway. Their stats still haven't been adjusted to the new ME / PE levels.
A Decryptor with +3/+6 yields +5/+10 BPC... yeah, makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Will the rats in these sites be faction NPC's or sleepers?


I did a test run in a WH on SiSi yesterday. The results are:
No NPCs in Relics/Datas in WH-space. The sites are just like the ones found in null.
And you can find multiple sites of different pirate factions in one WH.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#105 - 2014-10-15 20:23:45 UTC
It will always be very difficult to attain a sustainable balance by modifying supply rates. Please think about how to modify demand instead: increase usage of low value items by increasing material requirements in manufacturing for specific drops.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#106 - 2014-10-15 20:26:29 UTC
Damjan Fox wrote:
Decryptors need a rework anyway. Their stats still haven't been adjusted to the new ME / PE levels.
A Decryptor with +3/+6 yields +5/+10 BPC... yeah, makes perfect sense.

It's because the default for an invented BPC is ME 2 / TE 4, so a Decryptor that gives +3/+6 will result in a BPC with ME 5/ TE 10.

I agree, that could be made clearer.
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
#107 - 2014-10-15 20:31:09 UTC
Quote:
Consider making the Data/Relic Site cans unscannable with Cargo Scanners


+1 for this. Very easy way to prevent cherry picking.
Lucrii Dei
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2014-10-15 20:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucrii Dei
If the missions had something interesting to read or an evolving storyline throughout, reading would be less of a problem. It's the repetitive nature of the missions and mission text that makes them boring. There's no real incentive to read anything other than the mission title when you've been running the same missions for months on end.

What Samsara said above is relevant. It would be nice if the signature scanner remembered which sites you had ignored after leaving system, or at least when docking in the same system.

I approve of the changes to data site loot weight but even 50% of what it is now is still going to fill a frigate cargo hold fairly quickly, especially considering how many individual pieces are dropped from sites in Null-sec.

You should also remove the ability to cargo scan the containers because it's annoying wasting time scanning down the carbon remains of someone that can't be bothered to remove that last can.

╔═══ ♥ ═════════════╗

EVEcandy™; An EVE Gallery!

╚══════════════ ♥ ══╝

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2014-10-15 20:54:03 UTC
Damjan Fox wrote:
Quote:
Consider making the Data/Relic Site cans unscannable with Cargo Scanners


+1 for this. Very easy way to prevent cherry picking.

All that will do is increase the amount of outcry for increased loot from data/relic sites because players would hack an entire site and not get what they feel was enough loot for the "risk"

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2014-10-15 20:55:25 UTC
I would like to see rats added back to data/relic sites also. Maybe make us a cruiser sized version of the exploration frigates to accommodate for the rats.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#111 - 2014-10-15 20:56:40 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Damjan Fox wrote:
Quote:
Consider making the Data/Relic Site cans unscannable with Cargo Scanners


+1 for this. Very easy way to prevent cherry picking.

All that will do is increase the amount of outcry for increased loot from data/relic sites because players would hack an entire site and not get what they feel was enough loot for the "risk"

What if each scan counted as a failed access attempt?
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#112 - 2014-10-15 21:04:06 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#113 - 2014-10-15 21:04:06 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I would like to see rats added back to data/relic sites also. Maybe make us a cruiser sized version of the exploration frigates to accommodate for the rats.


Scaling up the sites to have some that require a Cruiser to defend against rats isn't a terrible idea, but we already have those sites in Lowsec in the form of the Mordus Angels sites, as well as the Ghost Sites which you need a decently tanked ship to survive the explosions and spawn alpha.

So I'd say you've already got that covered.
Paxille
Doomheim
#114 - 2014-10-15 21:06:29 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:



Suggestions For Improvement:

  • Decrease the size of Datacores and Decryptors to 0.01 m3 to match the size for Salvage. Datacore farming through Research Agents isn't as prevalent as it was before they were added to LP stores in Faction Warfare, so this shouldn't cause a lot of differences moving them through lowsec. Being able to keep more Datacores and Decryptors in a POS for research could generate additional conflict as the value of the items in a research POS could increase. This is also a QOL improvement for those using Laboratories for research, as they'll have to spend less time hauling Datacores/Decryptors to their POS.

  • Remove the Interface BPCs and refund existing ones at a fair rate. Reduce Faction Materials (Electric Conduit) size to 0.01 m3 and find more manufacturing uses for them, if they are going to be kept at all

  • Add better uncommon BPCs to the spawn list that can actually have some value to build, to replace the Target Spectrum Breaker, Reactive Armor Hardener, and other unprofitable items. If you are adding in Industrial Goods for building Storyline modules, maybe seeding some BPCs for those would make sense - but that would have to be balanced against the other ways to acquire them.

  • Increase T2 BPC drop ME/TE to be competitive with invented BPCs - they should be slightly better, considering the rarity. You may also want to look at some of the Capital T2 BPCs that are almost never used, and rebalance. I'm not sure who is putting some of these rigs like a Capital Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II on a capital, except maybe in ALOD situations like this Scanning Phoenix.

  • Add additional Relic Site spawns in Rogue Drone regions, and update drops in Data Sites. Other than the Augmented Drone BPCs there really isn't much value for doing exploration sites out there.

  • Add more valuable skillbook drops, consider removing NPC seeded ones. Making the Science skillbooks drop via Data sites would be a valuable addition and would fit in well.

  • Consider making the Data/Relic Site cans unscannable with Cargo Scanners, and balancing out the loot between more of the cans in a site. The current state makes it too easy to cherry pick the valuable cans and leave the rest, or skip the frequently completely empty ones. In addition, look at ways of improving the Hacking minigame as mentioned above.



I agree with you on pretty much everything :

- Especially about the m3 problem : the main reason I don't do Data sites is because the loot is 1m3, and the proposed update does not fix this. I don't know about other explorers but personnaly, I won't bother fitting a Data Analyzer until the loot is the same size as the Relic loot.

- Unscannable cans : Yes. I'm kind of tired of people leaving a site half done. They don't realize they're crippling all the explorers, including themselves.

- I'm not sure the minigame needs to be changed. Your proposal would make the game easier, I think it's fine as it is. I would guess that those who want to make the minigame easier are still using T1 analyzers ;)

- In addition to your interesting proposals, perhaps I would add the possibility to memorize ignored signatures (like other people suggested), although it's a minor problem. So far I don't mind using a real life pen and paper :)
Iv d'Este
Private Security Squad
#115 - 2014-10-15 21:08:48 UTC
Quote:
In the spirit of these changes I’ll keep this short and simple as no one enjoys a wall of text.
(Unless of course you have a wall of text fetish. But that’s none of my business).



Nooooooooooo!
Were is roleplay? Were atmosphere? New Eden living world! Do not make him dead.


Just highlight the main points in the end. No need to remove atmospheric chatter agent.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#116 - 2014-10-15 21:11:09 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I would like to see rats added back to data/relic sites also. Maybe make us a cruiser sized version of the exploration frigates to accommodate for the rats.


Scaling up the sites to have some that require a Cruiser to defend against rats isn't a terrible idea, but we already have those sites in Lowsec in the form of the Mordus Angels sites, as well as the Ghost Sites which you need a decently tanked ship to survive the explosions and spawn alpha.

So I'd say you've already got that covered.


I think we still need a real exploration cruiser, imho. Right now we have good T2-explo frigates and T3-cruisers. But T3s can do everything, they aren't just exploration ships and their ability to do exploration could be nerfed if we had a good, solid line of T2-exploration cruisers to fill that niche.

And yes, I know the Stratios exists. But if you point to the existence of the faction cruiser as an excuse for not having cruiser-sized exploration ships, why give the cov-ops frigates virus-strength bonuses? We already have the Astero, after all. So either make it so only T3s, the Astero and the Stratios have the full set of exploration-bonuses, or add the missing link.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#117 - 2014-10-15 21:32:18 UTC
How to make interface components useful: make interfaces consumable, rather than removing them from Invention.

Adding more loot to the sites simply means the value of that loot will drop. What increases value of sites is increasing the value of the individual items.

So bring back interfaces, make them a consumable (similar to the way RAM damage was handled by making RAMs more numerous, smaller items). Leaving their size at 0.5 is okay, explorers will simply have to make compromises about bringing a second ship to haul the junk, or exploring in a sub-optimal scanning ship for the sake of having more cargo capacity.

But I am probably being King Canute to the EVE developer tide, and I don't even have the advantage of a tide that is going to ebb and flow, it just flows.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#118 - 2014-10-15 21:43:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Unezka Turigahl
Remove BPCs for the "new" shield and armor mods and MJD from combat sites and rats, and make data sites the only source for them. Maybe the value for them will then raise a little. I'm talking about ancillary repair mods, reactive hardener... that stuff.

Faction POS BPCs should only drop from data sites in my opinion, not relics. Because BPCs to current pirate factions' tech are "data", not "relics". And data sites apparently need help sooo... put two and two together.

Instead of padding data sites with random junk, and instead of increasing drop rates on items which will only end up reducing their value, why not add a little loot in the style of sleeper "blue loot"? Low m3 volume items that are sold to NPCs. Instead of sleeper data it would be pirate data. In effect its basically like added bounties into data sites, but you don't get to claim your bounties if you get blown up by players before you can make it back to a concord station.

Or increase risk. Maybe instead of cans just blowing up when you fail a hack, the structure also webs and scrams you. So you get to try to inch away from it or blow it up with your Helios' two puny drones. haha.
Draahk Chimera
Supervillains
#119 - 2014-10-15 21:51:38 UTC
There are already tech 2 rig BPC's in relic sites, why not add tech 2 module, drone and (very rarely) ship bpc's to data sites?

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Kanzero
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#120 - 2014-10-15 22:03:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kanzero
Looks good. I've found it difficult to go run relic sites in whs solo. This will give me a reason and the capability to do so.

Note I said relics only. The XBOXHUGE data site loot will forever keep me away from running them, even if you buff the drops ten times. The volume of loot is even more important in whs, especially if you plan to run sites in a chain of whs.

Expect an infestation of exploration ships in wh space (fitted only with relic analyzers).