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Gevlon's Second Doozie

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#201 - 2014-10-15 11:49:27 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

So how do 4000 people go ratting when there is less than 3500 systems in all of null and less than 10 can be supported per system?

Assuming that is the limit of less than 10 per DAY.

5*3500 = 17,500.
10*3500 = 35,000.

Then not everyone plays every day, so you can double both of those

So 35,000 - 70,000 is Null Secs current support limit.

If that is simultaneous player count rather than per day, then we can add a further *4 multiplier on assuming people play about 6 hour play sessions, which is long but null players tend to have more free time to deal with such things.

So 140,000 - 280,000 if that is an at once limit.

In saying this, while that number does seem awesomely high I quite agree it's much too low. This isn't pretending that Null actually supports enough people. But it certainly does support a large number of people. And the income isn't as bad as you try and make out. Since you use average/low ball null figures, while picking the single best figure a player has ever achieved as the high sec figures. Meaning you are biasing your analysis before you even start. Basic scientific methodology as abused by politicians world wide to support their arguments.

But certainly, you could increase the number it could support per system by a factor of 5, if you can do so in a way that doesn't either cause rampant inflation (Null Bounties account for 45-50% of All isk faucets per 2012-2013 figures, 2013-2014 fanfest graph looked similar but I haven't done the maths) or crashing another market.



Average anom income is more like 50-60 mil/hr, 90mil/hr is indeed the top end.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#202 - 2014-10-15 20:05:30 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
I will say one thing for Gevlon;

His own crazy brings out the crazy in a lot of other people. And this thread is full of it.



For those who are mad that the CFC and N3 don't have a war to end all wars... What are we supposed to fight over?

We don't want their space. N3 probably doesn't want ours as they aren't even renting out all the systems they own. How do we decide which one of us has to haul all our stuff to the opposite end of the galaxy just to have a fight for the sake of fighting? Oh, that's easy. They have to come to us, because we already went to them last year and had a brawl so huge that CCP made an in-space memorial to it.

But nothing ever happens in null.


Which reminds me, when I started playing almost 3 years ago, Northern Coalition actually lived in the north, near us in Tribute and Vale. The space they own now was owned by what was vaguely explained to me at the time as "The Russians". TEST lived in Fountain and were part of our coalition. And we were just starting up a war with some group called White Noise, who owned Branch. And PL owned a lot of Tech moons but no sov.

But null is totally stale and unchanging.


We've been complaining for years that nullsec income for the average player isn't all that great. People in this thread challenge this, and end up getting schooled on how to make even more isk with highsec missions by a nullsec player who has a fleet doctrine named after him.

But nullsec is all easy money for everyone.



Some of the best crazy I've read this week.


This - definitely this.

Thanks for a great read everyone :)

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#203 - 2014-10-15 21:21:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
baltec1 wrote:
Joshua Milton Blahyi wrote:


How does it not make sense?

You say null sec can only support so many pilots per region.

Defining a supported pilot is very much a part of the discussion.

So once again, how much does one person need to make to be a "supported" pilot.


Its still makes no sense, the issue is with the limit on how many pilots can be supported at one time. We are not talking about one pilot alone.

We could start with a baseline income of "worth leaving Highsec for". Moving to Null to compete with Greens for money making opportunities, while worrying about Reds, and making less than high sec in the best case scenario... Doesn't sound like a balanced risk/reward situation, does it?

The terrible truesec system I live in can support 4 people running anomalies. One guy will make 60 mil an hour in an ishtar, I get as high as 75 in the ship I use if i get to chain hubs, before taxes. The other three will make around 51-60 mil depending on what they fly. Add on a few mil/h if you rat in a 5 bil Vindi.
Petre en Thielles wrote:
If you are ratting for ISK, you are EVE-ing wrong.

Here's why the limit of 4 isn't a problem: Ratting is something we do for some income while we wait for more people to log in. Generally, once we have 3-4 people online we go roaming looking for a fight. But as a result of this play style, ratting does end up making up a significant portion of line member income.

Here's why it IS a problem: We're not the only corp living in that system.

Joshua Milton Blahyi wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:


Why shouldn't we have a good isk potential for our members in space that we spend tens of billions on per month?


You do, if we go off of Baltecs 90/mil an hour for just anoms. Is that not enough? Your alliance has SRP for fleet work, how much ISK do you think you should be making to make it viable for you to live in near total security with a private jump bridge network, and the comfort of SOV null? Are goons so bad that they whelp a billion ISK worth of ships per system, per day? To singular pirates?

Why do high sec mission runners who blitz level 4's for an hour a day need to make so much money? Are they so bad that they whelp pirate battleships to npc's every week?

Now, let me educate you on how alliance SRP works and why line members need a healthy supply of ISK on a regular basis.
Example:
During our Curse deployment, I traveled down in a frigate and purchased a Dominix on contract in the neighbourhood of 320 mil if memory serves me right. I then paid the insurance for it. Despite my best efforts, it survived. It spent 15 hours sitting on a station undock afk and all i got was some killmails. I didn't have a carrier and was not around for the move op, so I ended up repackaging it forfeiting the insurance and rigs, and paying for jump freighter service to ship it to Deklein. I put on new rigs and purchased new insurance for it. It failed to die in several other fleets. Then we stopped flying Dominixes. It is currently collecting dust somewhere in Tribute I think.

ISK Spent: ~ 500mil?
SRP payout: 0

There are different payouts for strategic operations and screwing around on your own. If I go get killed in that domi now, SRP would pay out 30mil for it. I guess I could always try to sell it... Nah, I'll find a more entertaining use for it.

What happens when you DO get blown up during a deployment, you ask? Well you dock up your pod, you buy another one, and go at it again. Don't forget to file your reimbursement form. So by the end of the deployment, chances are you have a set of doctrine ships left over and insured one way or the other.

The thing is, alliances change doctrines like women change shoes to counter what the enemy is flying. With all the recent balance passes and tiericide that has been even more true. All the jump range changes are doing now, is putting extra pressure on line member wallets in the magnitude of billions to stock forward bases with ever changing doctrine ships, that in some ways are more likely to have their insurance expire than before.

What if you lost your pod and implants? Well that's on your personal wallet. Good thing those L4 NPC's don't pod you. No bubbles to deal with either.
Decian Cor
Stronghelm Corporation
Solyaris Chtonium
#204 - 2014-10-15 21:22:09 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I'm actually legitimately curious how anyone would seek to reconcile the continued existence of the coalitions (CFC, N3) with a non-stagnant sov system.

TiDi and lag won't go away. Cram 4k or more people into a server, the server will **** bricks and you've got a 20 hr fight. Sure you upgrade the server. Now it ***** bricks at 5k. W/e, still not fun for anyone. It just seems to me that a system that can support two blocs that together with their renters includes 95% (or w/e) of the population of null will be inherently stagnant.

And yet there are individuals in this very thread that seem to want a new sov system while keeping the "old" CFC/N3. How do you see that working?



We won't see an end to TiDi slugfests until people get over their inclination to pile overwhelming force into a system. FCs of every alliance know that 20 hour TiDi with 4k players sucks. The only way i see around it with current mechanics is if FCs and opposing sides are able to reach some sort of gentlemen s accord when a big fight is know to be building up, and spread what would normally be a 4k pilot fight in a single system into multiple pilots in multiple systems to alleviate pressure on the node.

But that will never happen because -pride- and -winning-.

[u]Unfiltered for the masses.[/u]

http://imgur.com/mzSl1Ie
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2014-10-15 21:33:23 UTC
Decian Cor wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I'm actually legitimately curious how anyone would seek to reconcile the continued existence of the coalitions (CFC, N3) with a non-stagnant sov system.

TiDi and lag won't go away. Cram 4k or more people into a server, the server will **** bricks and you've got a 20 hr fight. Sure you upgrade the server. Now it ***** bricks at 5k. W/e, still not fun for anyone. It just seems to me that a system that can support two blocs that together with their renters includes 95% (or w/e) of the population of null will be inherently stagnant.

And yet there are individuals in this very thread that seem to want a new sov system while keeping the "old" CFC/N3. How do you see that working?



We won't see an end to TiDi slugfests until people get over their inclination to pile overwhelming force into a system. FCs of every alliance know that 20 hour TiDi with 4k players sucks. The only way i see around it with current mechanics is if FCs and opposing sides are able to reach some sort of gentlemen s accord when a big fight is know to be building up, and spread what would normally be a 4k pilot fight in a single system into multiple pilots in multiple systems to alleviate pressure on the node.

But that will never happen because -pride- and -winning-.



It won't happen because Dominion sov puts everything on to the timers of individual structures.

Such a gentlemens' agreement would pretty much be giving up the ihub/station/tcu timer so you could get some killmails in some other uncontested system.


And to be fair, we actually did something like this in B-R. When we saw what it was escalating to, we told our subcaps to go camp stations in other systems. This had the effect of lowering our numbers in system, and keeping the enemy from piling more people in system. It was still a massive TiDi fest because Dominion sov forces as many people as possible to be in one system at a specific time to flip the sov. You can only send so much of your fleet to another system before you are effectively calling for a retreat.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#206 - 2014-10-15 21:57:03 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Most of the people I encounter that play EVE 'in spite of EVE' and not because they like it are actually solo style player and PVE players too (though of course, they are not a majority of any group).

And we get it, you think "solo and small gang" stuff is good and the people who do that are 'superior'. I find it funny when people peg their own or others self worth to how they play a video game. The F1 guys are smashing the same buttons the 'baller solo guys' are.\

Every time in the past I've killed someone solo it was ok, but just as ok as that time I was in a big Atlas fleet and we took C-J6 from the Russians for the 1st time. ie No big deal, it's just a video game.

Don't get me wrong, I think all styles of play are valid. The dude that figured out how to near-perfectly chain wormholes had an immense impact on eve. So too do the bloc level fc's that lead the fight in the sov war we all like to see.

But if all someone does is set keep at range on an anchor and press f1 in fleets...idk...I just don't find that very worthwhile.

So lets say a tengu fleet is called and it fills up, plus an ewar fleet with a hundred dudes and a hawk fleet with another hundred.

The Tengu fleet has like 150-180 Tengus, the rest is Logi and special snowflakes.
The Ewar fleet is newbies learning the ropes in cruisers. They anchor, but don't exactly F1 monkey.
The Hawk fleet doesn't have an anchor, they all fly manually and while they F1 a focus target they spread their other modules.

So really you're complaining about 150 guys out of a 450 man op. Not all those guys fly the same ship or role every time either.

If we narrow your complaint down further, it is that the main dps portion of the fleet focuses fire on the designated target.. as if any kind or size of fleet does anything different.

The other big complaint is that they anchor on the FC, as if that is the thing that is done all the time in every fleet. The FC directs your flight pattern to bring your guns to bear at desired engagement range, keep your transversal where he wants it and not get you bombed. Sometimes that means anchor up, sometimes align here or there, prop mods on or off, but the fleet has to stay together as a cohesive unit. Whether you use monkey buttons or elite double click in space to achieve it won't make much difference to the perception of fun level of someone like yourself looking at 150 line dps ships working in unison. Luckily, there's dictors, hics, ceptors, anti-support, recons, logi, ewar, etc etc.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#207 - 2014-10-15 23:35:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
He starts off with an unsubstantiated assertion that all alliance leaders engage in RMT.


Its not a secret that big alliances use plex referral links and often sell ad space. There is no evidence of illegal RMT, but the Mittani definitely makes money off the game. So do a few others.

If the big alliances can't maintain themselves as supermassive stable power blocks, then that that stable income is loss.


Themittani.com does not need the CFC to survive.


No, but the CFC helps maximize profits. I suspect profits would shrink substantially if the Mittani was no the leader of the game's largest power block.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#208 - 2014-10-15 23:56:53 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:




The thing is, alliances change doctrines like women change shoes to counter what the enemy is flying. With all the recent balance passes and tiericide that has been even more true. All the jump range changes are doing now, is putting extra pressure on line member wallets in the magnitude of billions to stock forward bases with ever changing doctrine ships, that in some ways are more likely to have their insurance expire than before.

What if you lost your pod and implants? Well that's on your personal wallet. Good thing those L4 NPC's don't pod you. No bubbles to deal with either.


To add to this, my harpy megathron costs a billion and is only covered by peacetime SRP which means I stump up over 90% of the cost. The monkfish project I have will cost an eyewatering 6 billion and will not be covered at all.
Decian Cor
Stronghelm Corporation
Solyaris Chtonium
#209 - 2014-10-16 01:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Decian Cor
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Decian Cor wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I'm actually legitimately curious how anyone would seek to reconcile the continued existence of the coalitions (CFC, N3) with a non-stagnant sov system.

TiDi and lag won't go away. Cram 4k or more people into a server, the server will **** bricks and you've got a 20 hr fight. Sure you upgrade the server. Now it ***** bricks at 5k. W/e, still not fun for anyone. It just seems to me that a system that can support two blocs that together with their renters includes 95% (or w/e) of the population of null will be inherently stagnant.

And yet there are individuals in this very thread that seem to want a new sov system while keeping the "old" CFC/N3. How do you see that working?



We won't see an end to TiDi slugfests until people get over their inclination to pile overwhelming force into a system. FCs of every alliance know that 20 hour TiDi with 4k players sucks. The only way i see around it with current mechanics is if FCs and opposing sides are able to reach some sort of gentlemen s accord when a big fight is know to be building up, and spread what would normally be a 4k pilot fight in a single system into multiple pilots in multiple systems to alleviate pressure on the node.

But that will never happen because -pride- and -winning-.



It won't happen because Dominion sov puts everything on to the timers of individual structures.

Such a gentlemens' agreement would pretty much be giving up the ihub/station/tcu timer so you could get some killmails in some other uncontested system.


And to be fair, we actually did something like this in B-R. When we saw what it was escalating to, we told our subcaps to go camp stations in other systems. This had the effect of lowering our numbers in system, and keeping the enemy from piling more people in system. It was still a massive TiDi fest because Dominion sov forces as many people as possible to be in one system at a specific time to flip the sov. You can only send so much of your fleet to another system before you are effectively calling for a retreat.



Good on you then for at least putting an attempt towards curbing the gagglefuck. From what I hear, BR was a decent fight regardless.

And I don't think it means 'giving it up' as much as it would mean a proportionate effort in said timed system, and the better fleet wins. But that's a pretty optimistic view, I admit.

[u]Unfiltered for the masses.[/u]

http://imgur.com/mzSl1Ie
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#210 - 2014-10-16 04:33:11 UTC
All this talk of isk/hour for null. What for? Honestly null is the true sandbox of EvE. What is the isk for?

Fuel? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?
Ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?

What's the isk for? Don't tell me it's to go and buy the stuff that can be made out in null off the high sec market hubs....

Null groups don't need isk/hour to "sustain" their members. They need a proper industrial foundation from which to build their empire upon and an established market to support it.



http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#211 - 2014-10-16 04:44:29 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
All this talk of isk/hour for null. What for? Honestly null is the true sandbox of EvE. What is the isk for?

Fuel? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?
Ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?

What's the isk for? Don't tell me it's to go and buy the stuff that can be made out in null off the high sec market hubs....

Null groups don't need isk/hour to "sustain" their members. They need a proper industrial foundation from which to build their empire upon and an established market to support it.





Feel free to tell us how you get a six billion isk ship for free.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#212 - 2014-10-16 06:07:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
All this talk of isk/hour for null. What for? Honestly null is the true sandbox of EvE. What is the isk for?

Fuel? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?
Ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?

What's the isk for? Don't tell me it's to go and buy the stuff that can be made out in null off the high sec market hubs....

Null groups don't need isk/hour to "sustain" their members. They need a proper industrial foundation from which to build their empire upon and an established market to support it.





Feel free to tell us how you get a six billion isk ship for free.


Canned response nr. 0382 when talking about income nerfs in high: You dont need expensive ships to have fun!

Also for that dominix thing, dunno isnt that really a problem of not having cheaper ships available for purchase from the alliance due to paperwork?
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#213 - 2014-10-16 06:19:59 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
All this talk of isk/hour for null. What for? Honestly null is the true sandbox of EvE. What is the isk for?

Fuel? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?
Ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?

What's the isk for? Don't tell me it's to go and buy the stuff that can be made out in null off the high sec market hubs....

Null groups don't need isk/hour to "sustain" their members. They need a proper industrial foundation from which to build their empire upon and an established market to support it.






Fuel is regional. Actually, you'll find the same exact isotopes across several regions, as there are only 4 flavors in the game.

Ships, ammo, modules, rigs? You can make T1 ships, but not T2 and only a few faction ships. T2 requires moon goo from different parts of the galaxy. Some faction can be found in null, but others have to come from empire or the other end of the galaxy. Same for ammo and modules. Large scale rig production can only be done with the types of salvage the local rats drop. The Guristas drop stuff to make shield rigs, but other rig types require importing stuff.


We are just starting to get an industrial foundation now with the buffs to factory outposts and the team system. But much of that is going to be flushed down the drain with the JF nerfs. Importing moon goo and foreign components is going to get more difficult, so we'll likely go back to just importing from highsec.
Captain Jazzmag
No Hot Ashes
#214 - 2014-10-16 06:58:18 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
All this talk of isk/hour for null. What for? Honestly null is the true sandbox of EvE. What is the isk for?

Fuel? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?
Ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?

What's the isk for? Don't tell me it's to go and buy the stuff that can be made out in null off the high sec market hubs....

Null groups don't need isk/hour to "sustain" their members. They need a proper industrial foundation from which to build their empire upon and an established market to support it.





Feel free to tell us how you get a six billion isk ship for free.


Canned response nr. 0382 when talking about income nerfs in high: You dont need expensive ships to have fun!

Also for that dominix thing, dunno isnt that really a problem of not having cheaper ships available for purchase from the alliance due to paperwork?


He didn't say high. If you're going on a dread fleet to kill a tower, you bring a dread. The materials and ISK to buy one doesn't magically appear upon request. Fun and doctrines are completely unrelated, you don't win sov wars with fun ships. You win it with unified doctrines. If that doctrine so happens to be a fun ship it's all the better but usually they're not.
Solecist Project
#215 - 2014-10-16 07:23:26 UTC
Oh this thread is still going!

Have people learned som... eww, what's with all the poo on the wall..... :/

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#216 - 2014-10-16 07:42:29 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

Fuel is regional. Actually, you'll find the same exact isotopes across several regions, as there are only 4 flavors in the game.

Ships, ammo, modules, rigs? You can make T1 ships, but not T2 and only a few faction ships. T2 requires moon goo from different parts of the galaxy. Some faction can be found in null, but others have to come from empire or the other end of the galaxy. Same for ammo and modules. Large scale rig production can only be done with the types of salvage the local rats drop. The Guristas drop stuff to make shield rigs, but other rig types require importing stuff.


We are just starting to get an industrial foundation now with the buffs to factory outposts and the team system. But much of that is going to be flushed down the drain with the JF nerfs. Importing moon goo and foreign components is going to get more difficult, so we'll likely go back to just importing from highsec.

Except that actually makes your import route LONGER, not shorter. You personally might jump less, but the Moon Goo actually takes a longer route than direct importing from your nearest source. All faction ships can also be found in low without ever having to touch high. And in the case of Empire factions are vastly cheaper from FW sources.

Of course this requires leveraging an entire meta shift rather than simply running with the existing meta.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2014-10-16 07:55:48 UTC
Captain Jazzmag wrote:


He didn't say high. If you're going on a dread fleet to kill a tower, you bring a dread. The materials and ISK to buy one doesn't magically appear upon request. Fun and doctrines are completely unrelated, you don't win sov wars with fun ships. You win it with unified doctrines. If that doctrine so happens to be a fun ship it's all the better but usually they're not.


Sov and other structure bashing is not a solo endeavor, he made those 6 bil comments in a way that suggested that he makes the fits for experiments (baltec II rokh?), very similar to a highsec missioner buying expensive ships and mods to be able to facetank stuff for convenience, the same missioner that is being repeatedly told to not use them, because "You dont need expensive ships to have fun".
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#218 - 2014-10-16 14:06:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
All this talk of isk/hour for null. What for? Honestly null is the true sandbox of EvE. What is the isk for?

Fuel? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?
Ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?

What's the isk for? Don't tell me it's to go and buy the stuff that can be made out in null off the high sec market hubs....

Null groups don't need isk/hour to "sustain" their members. They need a proper industrial foundation from which to build their empire upon and an established market to support it.





Feel free to tell us how you get a six billion isk ship for free.


What is this 6 billion ship that you speak of?

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Prince Kobol
#219 - 2014-10-16 14:16:03 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
This is an example of Gelvon's good posting? What?

He starts off with an unsubstantiated assertion that all alliance leaders engage in RMT,


Not that I am saying any alliance leaders are involved but RMT does happen and on a very large scale. The issue is if you happen to talk about it on these forums it is instantly zapped because CCP do not want to public acknowledge that the problem is that big and people are making tens of thousand of dollars a year from it.

Just ask in alliance channels if anybody is selling any roses Blink
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#220 - 2014-10-16 14:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Angeal MacNova wrote:
All this talk of isk/hour for null. What for? Honestly null is the true sandbox of EvE. What is the isk for?

Fuel? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?
Ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? Is there not the right materials in null to make it?

What's the isk for? Don't tell me it's to go and buy the stuff that can be made out in null off the high sec market hubs....

Null groups don't need isk/hour to "sustain" their members. They need a proper industrial foundation from which to build their empire upon and an established market to support it.






The problem with this is the standard outsider bias. As in real life, people tend to clump individuals in with whatever group they are members of. It's why people hear that such and such bank has made billions this quarter in profits and think that everyone who works for that bank is a billionaire when in fact most bank works struggle like everyone else, or why some people think that if they tell one police officer a bit of information somehow magically the whole force knows, because "Well, I told 'the police'".

'Null groups' and 'individuals who are in an alliance and live in null' are 2 different things. 'Null groups' get their isk from moons and rent and sometimes charging 'dues' from member corps and they use that isk to pay SOV costs and run SRP programs and build corp/alliance super capitals etc.

But they don't just hand isk to their members. Even with moon goo income that wouldn't be sustainable. individual members still need to make isk some kind of way, and not everyone can throw 20 bucks at ccp for a plex every time ships explode, so most use some kind of in game method like trading or ratting etc.

Because null mostly sucks for reliable high level individual income (except now for 'renters' for whom the squalid conditions are acceptable), lots of line members of sov holding alliances use alts to make isk in other parts of New Eden. Some null corps have wormhole alt corps for their members to make isk in. Others have alt corps where their members can blitz lvl 5 missions in low sec with carriers. Still others have alt corps in Faction Warfare for members to make isk with cheap ships like drakes and stealth bombers. A few null groups I know of do 'group sessions' running missions in npc null sec for isk.

Still others use alts to make isk in high sec doing incursions and missions in near complete safety. All of these 'alt' individual income activities stem from this not so well thought out change that gutted individual's ability to sustain themselves from null sec pve activity alone. It was done in the name of spurring conflict but all it did was lead to more "out of null" isk making alts.

This devaluing of null also lead to the current rental empires which in turn create the political situation that encouraged the so-called "Blue Donut". CCP had good intentions (and I'll go as far as to say that their thinking was reasonable) but they backfired massively.

The above, btw, is why I'm incredibly skeptical about what CCP us doing now with null. They don't have any kind of good track record when it comes to making null sec better. For example, they actually thought Dominion would make null better for small groups...