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Beginning Leadership
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Kavrae Veila
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-09-12 19:51:30 UTC
I just recently start (1 month). I've played enough MMOs to realize that I want to work towards a command position; fleet boosting skills and directing the combat, rather than shooting things myself. At this point, I've begun training skills for Leadership, gang boosts, etc and have tried learning as much as I can about the array of ships available. While I ultimately want to get an Eos as a fleet commander, I realize this is going to take a ridiculous amount of time and practice (two years to do it correctly, by my estimate). As such, I need an intermediate ship to practice commanding small fleets (5-10 people to start). Naturally, I looked at the Bruix; being the T1 hull of the Eos and being 2 weeks from flying it.

That mess aside, my question is this: is the Brutix appropriate for what I want to do? (keeping in mind only one month of skill points)
Forever Infiniti
Doomheim
#2 - 2011-09-12 19:57:35 UTC
Eos is probably the worst booster, what you want is a Vulture or Damnation (Perferably the Latter). Use a Harby until the Damnation or a Drake till the Vulture.

If I stare at the door long enough, maybe, just maybe, it'll open
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#3 - 2011-09-12 20:02:33 UTC
Not really, no, but then neither is the Eos.

The Brutix is very much a glass cannon. Even if it weren't providing gang bonuses (and it really shouldn't be), it would be primary. If you want to live through a fight you probably want to look for another ship.

As for the Eos: well, it's the sad third wheel of fleet command ships right now (and has been since the introduction of bandwidth/major nerf to the Eos itself). Its bonuses are generally considered second rate (unless you're providing them specifically to an EWAR wing, but then you're not really looking at small gang). As a nice kicker, T3s provide better bonuses than command ships in general (though their popularity is down a bit now that they can't be made unprobable).

The role you're describing doesn't really exist in EVE today. Usually the ship providing gang boosts will either be off grid or will play a sideline role to the main battle simply because its job is to stay alive and provide bonuses. For actual RL leadership, you can find a better ship to sit in. For providing gang boosts, you have to decide on your priorities -- if it's a small enough group that you need some token added firepower, a CS is a good way to go, but usually not an Eos. Otherwise, an off-grid T3 or a POS-sitting multi-link CS will be preferable.
Kavrae Veila
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-09-12 20:16:23 UTC
I honestly didn't expect so much good information so quickly. While I did like the Eos, switching to another Fleet Command Ship is perfectly fine, very little lost in the way of skill points or ISK at this point. The Damnation does have my attention. If anything, it seems this ship would survive through any encounter I'm not already running from while providing enough gang boosts and DPS to be worth a ship slot.
Forever Infiniti
Doomheim
#5 - 2011-09-12 23:19:14 UTC
Kavrae Veila wrote:
I honestly didn't expect so much good information so quickly. While I did like the Eos, switching to another Fleet Command Ship is perfectly fine, very little lost in the way of skill points or ISK at this point. The Damnation does have my attention. If anything, it seems this ship would survive through any encounter I'm not already running from while providing enough gang boosts and DPS to be worth a ship slot.


Yes, Damnation is a very excellent ship and can survive quite well actually on the field since it's like a drake, massive tank and little gank Big smile. It can field one of the largest subcap tanks in-game (except for prot and stuff) and is very liked due to many fleets being armor and it providing awesome armor boosts

If I stare at the door long enough, maybe, just maybe, it'll open
Sphynix
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#6 - 2011-09-12 23:51:27 UTC
Kavrae Veila wrote:
I just recently start (1 month). I've played enough MMOs to realize that I want to work towards a command position; fleet boosting skills and directing the combat, rather than shooting things myself. At this point, I've begun training skills for Leadership, gang boosts, etc and have tried learning as much as I can about the array of ships available. While I ultimately want to get an Eos as a fleet commander, I realize this is going to take a ridiculous amount of time and practice (two years to do it correctly, by my estimate). As such, I need an intermediate ship to practice commanding small fleets (5-10 people to start). Naturally, I looked at the Bruix; being the T1 hull of the Eos and being 2 weeks from flying it.

That mess aside, my question is this: is the Brutix appropriate for what I want to do? (keeping in mind only one month of skill points)


I've got an alt that went for the "leadership route". To max out all your leadership skills and also fly a decent booster ship (command) then you're looking at the best part of a year or doing not very much.

Said alt now flies a vulture and is currently re-skilling for minmatar. All she does is sit in a PoS with 7 command modules running, or off grid (which is out of the fight but in the same system) for incursions. She in no way interacts with the fleet outside the very niche role of providing boosts.

Being a "Fleet Command" (generally referred to as the FC) Doesn't mean providing bonuses (boosts) to the fleet. Yes, it's nice if you can pass boosts down the line, but that doesn't require you to actually provide the boost yourself. It's a different skill to command fleets (squad > wing > fleet).
Being a good FC is more about knowing your ship strengths vs their ships weaknesses and vice-versa. If you want to FC in PvE then you'll need to know the various triggers and the habits of the NPCs in the "dungeons of EVE"
Kavrae Veila
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-09-13 00:05:16 UTC
Honestly, after many years of being purely PvE (dungeons, grinding, raids) I'm tired of it. I'm looking more towards PvP fleet command. I'm considering working towards the Damnation. Get my armor boosting up, leave the others at 4 for now, then start grabbing the wing and fleet skills (just finished up Leadership). I'm sure the longest and hardest part will be learning what each ship can do.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-09-13 00:17:39 UTC
Not much practice to it. Land on grid, turn on mods. In general, your FC is not necessarily going to be the person in the fleet command position (that goes to the best booster).
Kavrae Veila
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-09-13 00:41:05 UTC
I'm one of the odd people that wants to do both; boosting while being an actual FC. Be a nightmare skill-wise I'm sure, and my DPS will suffer horribly.
Aessaya
Independent treasure hunters
#10 - 2011-09-13 03:19:53 UTC
Damn i wrote up a huge post detailing each command ship, warfare links, skills, bonuses and other tips&tricks, but the damn forum managed to make it all disappear. Nice job, CCP.

Anyways, I recommend you to get combat experience as a regular fleet member before you start FCing gangs of your own, and even then start from cheaper and smaller ones. Also flying under more experienced FCs helps alot. Further note: training leadership skills and skills for ships is quite time-consuming, so it is better to be done on high-sp char, which already have a bunch of skills or on a dedicated alt.

Also while command ships are common sight on the battlefield, it is not uncommon to have them stationed somewhere safer - in the safespot or at the pos, where they can still provide bonuses but have much less risk of getting killed. Bonuses work for whole system and fleet command ship's damage isn't something you can't live without in a fleet.

If you wish to know more about specific ships, skills and modules, feel free to convo/pm/evemail me (flying fleet commands since '07).

Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song.
Naradius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-09-13 04:38:24 UTC
Kavrae Veila wrote:
I'm one of the odd people that wants to do both; boosting while being an actual FC. Be a nightmare skill-wise I'm sure, and my DPS will suffer horribly.


It will be hardly be effective to do this as a booster. Often you're away from the fight, holed-up in a safe spot or POS, not seeing the dynamic changes within a fight will make you a very ineffective FC.

Pro tip - Eos is underrated in one respect - it makes a decent solo pvp boat...people don't expect it to bite so hard Blink

"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." - Douglas Adams
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#12 - 2011-09-13 05:14:18 UTC
Sphynix wrote:
Kavrae Veila wrote:
I just recently start (1 month). I've played enough MMOs to realize that I want to work towards a command position; fleet boosting skills and directing the combat, rather than shooting things myself. At this point, I've begun training skills for Leadership, gang boosts, etc and have tried learning as much as I can about the array of ships available. While I ultimately want to get an Eos as a fleet commander, I realize this is going to take a ridiculous amount of time and practice (two years to do it correctly, by my estimate). As such, I need an intermediate ship to practice commanding small fleets (5-10 people to start). Naturally, I looked at the Bruix; being the T1 hull of the Eos and being 2 weeks from flying it.

That mess aside, my question is this: is the Brutix appropriate for what I want to do? (keeping in mind only one month of skill points)


I've got an alt that went for the "leadership route". To max out all your leadership skills and also fly a decent booster ship (command) then you're looking at the best part of a year or doing not very much.

Said alt now flies a vulture and is currently re-skilling for minmatar. All she does is sit in a PoS with 7 command modules running, or off grid (which is out of the fight but in the same system) for incursions. She in no way interacts with the fleet outside the very niche role of providing boosts.

Being a "Fleet Command" (generally referred to as the FC) Doesn't mean providing bonuses (boosts) to the fleet. Yes, it's nice if you can pass boosts down the line, but that doesn't require you to actually provide the boost yourself. It's a different skill to command fleets (squad > wing > fleet).
Being a good FC is more about knowing your ship strengths vs their ships weaknesses and vice-versa. If you want to FC in PvE then you'll need to know the various triggers and the habits of the NPCs in the "dungeons of EVE"


Hence why your ship should NEED to be on the grid to work, exploitstupid at its best.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-09-13 13:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Kavrae Veila wrote:
I'm one of the odd people that wants to do both; boosting while being an actual FC. Be a nightmare skill-wise I'm sure, and my DPS will suffer horribly.

You don't need any in-game skills to actually command a fleet. You don't need to deal any significant DPS either, in a sense your fleet is your weapon.

However sitting in a CS on the field just shouts BIG SHINY to the enemies. Expect to be targetted a lot and have to run away from time to time - not the best thing to do when you're trying to call targets. Also whenever a titan appears on the field expect to die, horribly. Another reason why the FC should probably not be in a command ship themselves.
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#14 - 2011-09-13 14:01:27 UTC
This is interesting discussion.

It is perfectly understandable that the FC is not the booster. Per reason already mentioned.

Are the leadership skills like Squad wing and Fleet command not the boosting skills usefull to the the FC?

Is the guy actually commanding the fleet the fleet commander in the fleet menu or just a guy that is yelling at
you in the voice comms. Lol

Also Do you need the Fleet wing sqad commander skills on a booster?

This was always something that was not clear to me.

Could someone with experience elaborate on this please ?
Aessaya
Independent treasure hunters
#15 - 2011-09-13 14:04:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Aessaya
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Kavrae Veila wrote:
I'm one of the odd people that wants to do both; boosting while being an actual FC. Be a nightmare skill-wise I'm sure, and my DPS will suffer horribly.

You don't need any in-game skills to actually command a fleet. You don't need to deal any significant DPS either, in a sense your fleet is your weapon.

However sitting in a CS on the field just shouts BIG SHINY to the enemies. Expect to be targetted a lot and have to run away from time to time - not the best thing to do when you're trying to call targets. Also whenever a titan appears on the field expect to die, horribly. Another reason why the FC should probably not be in a command ship themselves.

From my own experience, in a decent fleet CSs are targeted the last. Simply because they pose little threat themselves and removing them is kinda problematic because of their superior tanks. However, a good fc will call a few neutralizers on you to get your links off.

Update:
Niko Takahashi wrote:
This is interesting discussion.

It is perfectly understandable that the FC is not the booster. Per reason already mentioned.

Are the leadership skills like Squad wing and Fleet command not the boosting skills usefull to the the FC?

Is the guy actually commanding the fleet the fleet commander in the fleet menu or just a guy that is yelling at
you in the voice comms. Lol

Also Do you need the Fleet wing sqad commander skills on a booster?

This was always something that was not clear to me.

Could someone with experience elaborate on this please ?

Yes both booster and fleet/wing/squad commander needs to have appropriate skills for the bonuses to be effective. This is why it is rarely seen for booster to be outside of the commander position. And fleet commander is the guy on the voice comms that is giving the commands, he may or may not be in a commander position in the fleet, that is not necessary.

Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song.
Kavrae Veila
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-09-13 14:19:06 UTC
This has certainly given me a lot to think about. For now, while I train up my basic skills, I'm going to start leading small T1 Frigate group from my startup corp through low/nullsec on suicide practice runs. Get a feel for commanding and get us all some combat experience.
Othran
Route One
#17 - 2011-09-13 15:05:05 UTC
Kavrae Veila wrote:
I'm one of the odd people that wants to do both; boosting while being an actual FC. Be a nightmare skill-wise I'm sure, and my DPS will suffer horribly.


Bad idea unless you intend being an awful (ie unknown) FC?

In general the FC wants a nice nondescript tanky ship - like a Drake or a geddon etc etc.

The FC isn't there to boost people, he's there to call the fights. As such he'll end up primary pretty frequently if he's any good. Attaching a nice shiny command ship (with all the fleet warfare links I presume?) to the person controlling the fleet seems a tad stupid to me.
Kavrae Veila
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2011-09-13 15:28:05 UTC
Othran wrote:
Kavrae Veila wrote:
I'm one of the odd people that wants to do both; boosting while being an actual FC. Be a nightmare skill-wise I'm sure, and my DPS will suffer horribly.


Bad idea unless you intend being an awful (ie unknown) FC?

In general the FC wants a nice nondescript tanky ship - like a Drake or a geddon etc etc.

The FC isn't there to boost people, he's there to call the fights. As such he'll end up primary pretty frequently if he's any good. Attaching a nice shiny command ship (with all the fleet warfare links I presume?) to the person controlling the fleet seems a tad stupid to me.


That is a good point.... be a bit counterproductive to paint a target on myself. Though it does annoy me a little, since it seems the fleet role and the ship type were made for each other.
Othran
Route One
#19 - 2011-09-13 15:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Kavrae Veila wrote:
That is a good point.... be a bit counterproductive to paint a target on myself. Though it does annoy me a little, since it seems the fleet role and the ship type were made for each other.


It depends on the size of the gang/fleet TBH.

For you starting out then max out your squad bonuses and train to say WC3. You can now move a gang of 30 around and give decent (10%) boosts.

However I suggest you find out whether you like PvP first.

Apart from the lagfest fleet battles, being a FC in Eve isn't like being some sort of general sitting on a hill surveying the fray - you WILL be in the fight in most instances simply because you can't afford to have a DPS ship doing nothing. Of course you could always fly a frigate class ship (AF or inty) and kite the grid providing warp points while you FC but you do run the risk of having a fast frigate killer (Vaga/Cynabal) catch you on a jump-in.

You have a lot of reading to do - most of it on the old forums Smile
Nor Tzestu
Dos Pollos Hermanos
#20 - 2011-09-13 20:40:39 UTC
Seems you have plenty of good advice to cover how to FC etc.

IF your still looking for a ship to pop command mod's and looking to be useful to a fleet, might I suggest the myrmidon. The Myrm can tank like nobody's business and gets the majority of it's DPS from drones. This frees up your high slots to fit as many command modules as you'd like while at the same time setting your drones to assist or for cleaning out opposing fleets tackle. Your still contributing DPS where it needs to go while able to run your gang boosters and if you are called out by the opposing fleet the Myrm likely can handle as much abuse as any tech 1 BC can. I'd investigate this ship and try to leave the Brutix to what it does best. Warp to your tacklers and melt things before they melt you.
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