Assembly Hall

I wrote a email to CCP in regards to the exploit of -10 criminals ganking players mainly new ones in high sec See below

First of all let me say im not saying that Ganking in High sec should be stopped Ganking is available anywhere anytime, my issue is the exploit of there Security status in high sec and killing ships.


"eve in most parts is a good game, however you never address this issue or Criminals and the acts that they do to exploit killings in high sec.

Currently we have -10 Sec status people in and around my system ganking miners, they are freely aloud to roam the systems as long as they are in a pod or shuttle. then the Concord police will not do anything, So how do they beat this, they get a neutral in a orca etc to fly to a safe spot and then allow them to get in to ships then fly to someone to kill before Concord then decides to get them.

Sounds like a exploit to me, i have no issues with being killed by them but now with the exploit that allows them to do it over and over and over, Simple rule states if you are a criminal then you pay the consequences for those actions. the easy fix for this is to have security id on gates and if you are below the required sec status you are then not allowed to use that gate.

CCP needs to start looking at the big picture with the game and to cater for all players and not what just suits CCP, have you ever wondered why eve is not in the league of other games with the number of players, im not tallking 000's of players im talking 000,000's its cause this game has the risk for you to lose all and i enjoy that that but you need to look after the player group that cant or want a safe enjoyable game to play or just want to stay in high sec. im happy with no where being safe and there is the element of being killed but you have made it so easy, just now two -10 chars killed a mining barge even though he is -10 was then flagged for 10 mins and is now free to do it all over again.

After 11 years of this game i would have expected 000,000's of players and that would mean more income for you and more development of the game. look at why some other games keep the player base. i myself left 7 years ago for over a year because of the exploits that allow negative players to exploit postive players.

I know of alot of people who just cant be arsed to pay a subscription and then lose there ships and have to start all over again, that's why they have gone back to Wow or Diablo 3 as some people just want to enjoy, if something is not done with the game to help out the new players and with the upcoming new games Eve is going to lose even more players by them not subbing. i love eve but you need to address the issues and not just keep adding new content, make the game enjoyable, risky, rewarding

You ban or take action on certain exploits when it seems to suit you, so why do you allow some exploits to happen and some to not, i pay to sub this game but CCP is NOT!!! fulfilling its promise to stop exploits, when you get chars who repeatedly use the exploit to there advantage in high sec. there were two negative payers including -10.00 and -9.9 who are allowed to constantly gank Mining ships, then they wait there 10 minute period and then can repeat it, how is this not different to other exploits.



Definition of Harassment


Hi Sec systems where Concord (the police force is in force) High Sec is currently classed as systems where by the police (Concord) will intervene when a illegal activity is happening

harassment . the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands.

• Bullying mining ships which cant fight back
• Having to pay (Blackmail) to be able to mine in high sec
• The loss of income gained in game which is paid for through subscriptions of real cash
• Continued and repeated acts to force person(s) to either leave, quit or pay the Ransom

The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, or attempt to force someone to quit a job, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill (Ransom to mine)

or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious.

People will not play due to fear of losing more in game and not being able to play the game which they have paid real cash for.

thank you and I value your opinion but was

HTFU or GTFO

really needed ?

Hoo boy... where to start?

First off:
The "Definition of Harassment" is determined by CCP (as J'Poll pointed out). Yes, there is a written definition in the EULA, but it is still vague enough to allow for player freedom and CCP to make judgement calls in specific situations.

So far, the current working definition of "harassment" in EVE is this; sustained targeting of a player (or group of players) over a period of time despite the targeted players' best efforts to avoid it... and the targeters do not gain anything.

What does this mean?
- it means that ganking is, by itself, not "harassment." It is just another aspect of the game.
- it means that player activities that run counter (or are detrimental) to yours is not "harassment." It is merely a part of the game (i.e. the game is centered around player on player "conflict").
- it means that a player cannot simply move to a different station/asteroid belt or one system over and claim that tried to "avoid" unwanted contact. You have to put effort into it (see: moving several systems over at least). And yes, this is an intentional part of the game.
- it means that if the target consistently make themself profitable they cannot claim that they are being targeted for no reason.

Now...



And they do. Allow me to list them off...

If you suicide gank...

Direct Penalties:
- you lose your ship
- you lose any insurance you have the ship
- you lose Security Status
- you gain a Suspect Flag for 10-15 minutes and can be shot at by anyone and everyone in the game without penalty
- you gain a Criminal Flag for 15 minutes (see: can't undock in high-sec in anything other than a pod without being CONCORDed again)

Indirect Penalties:
- if your Security Status goes low enough (see: below -5.0) then you can be shot by anyone, anywhere, at any time.
- if your Security Status goes below certain levels then you will find yourself less and less able to enter higher security systems without the Faction Police attacking you (see: you can't use any ship bigger than a cruiser in high-sec unless you are willing to tank the NPCs).
- with lower Security Status you will be less and less able to get new supplies from high-sec trade hubs and/or must buy from low-sec stations at a premium and/or must rely on friends/alts to resupply you.
- if you want to raise your Security Status you must either kill pirate NPCs for a godawful amount of time or spend a fair bit of cash to buy the security tags needed.

Other Risks:
- you botch the gank attempt and eat the cost of the ship and gain a security hit (and 15 minutes of idle time) for no reason.
- the target may be tanked more than you think... resulting in a failed gank attempt where you eat the cost of the ship and gain a security hit (and 15 minutes of idle time) for no reason.
- the target never shows and you have wasted time.
- the loot that you are ganking for never drops... resulting in a failed gank where you eat the cost of the ship and gain a security hit (and 15 minutes of idle time) for no reason.
- the gank is successful, the loot you want drops, but someone else picked it up before your friend/alt did... resulting in a failed gank where you eat the cost of the ship and gain a security hit (and 15 minutes of idle time) for no reason.
- you don't have enough people to properly suicide gank.


Outside of these things... it is up to OTHER PLAYERS to make people with low security status pay for their actions. The game only stacks the odds so much in your favor (and the odds are VERY much in the targets' favor). You have to do the rest.



CONCORD are a reactionary force. There were never designed to be pro-active. That is a PLAYER'S job.

The neutral alts... well... you can ban them for being used to avoid consequences, sure... but then you have to ban all other neutral alts that are being used to avoid other consequences of the game.
For example: neutral haulers, industrialists, miners, etc. that stay in NPC corps to avoid dealing with war declarations, AWOXers, thieves, etc.

Fair is fair after all.


They do. But they still stay true to the overraching theme in EVE; player versus player conflict.

Plus, you also have to consider this;

-in a single player game, a "sandbox" means you can do anything you want to do. In a multiplayer game, a "sandbox" means that not only can you do anything you want to do, but OTHER PLAYERS can do the same. Even if it runs counter to yours.

- to "ban" or limit a style of play because you do not like how to affects you (or others) means that the people whose gameplay has been banned/limited can ask the same thing on YOUR style of play for the same reasons.

And when that happens... the game is no longer a "sandbox."


Because EVE Online is a "niche product" that caters to people who like "difficult" games?

Niche products may never gain the popularity of some other titles that try to be as inclusive as possible... but they do tend to last longer.

Why play Eve if you don't like it?

First of all, citation is requested for your assertion that it's mainly new players being ganked. If you're going to suggest something, back it up.

It's been a niche game for over 11 years and will continue to be one. It's also been dying for 11 years and you're not the first to claim new upcoming games will take it's players.

-10 players already paid the price for their low sec status. If you wish for them to pay another, then make them pay yourself. It's not CCPs job, or that of concord, to protect you and your assets. It's your job.
The easy fix is for you to take matters into your own hands and deal with it. Seeing as -10 players are open season for all, you have no worries regarding Concord. Yet another price we pay. But being -10 and ganking in high sec, is not an exploit.

Who are you to say what is and isn't negative play or players? Just because someone has a negative sec status, doesn't make them any less valid a player, then someone with a high one. To be quite frank, in all the time I've played this game, the likes of people who think themselves better because of that, tend to be the ones not worth knowing at all.

There is no exploit in this regard. It's just your self righteous attitude and belief you should be able to play and not be ganked. You don't even seem to know the game mechanics behind it, so how can you sit in judgement of them?

As far as your claim of harassment is concerned, it's disingenuous at best. People playing the game by it's own rules, does not harassment make. Your attempt to include racial prejudice and personal malice, is quite frankly ridiculous. They are already against the EULA and if you have issues in that regard, then create a ticket.

Oh and we all pay in some form or another, some in RL cash, others in time that buys others use of RL cash. But you still agree to play and agree to the terms and conditions. Of those, are playing by the rules. So either play the game, or leave. Either way, it's not about to change for your benefit.

Wouldn't put it past it.

The OP is a wonderful example of why NPC corp posters need to be forbidden from posting anywhere but New Citizens and the Character Bazaar.

As for your conclusions, OP, it is not possible to be more wrong than you are. Absolutely nothing of what you described is an exploit, it is smart gameplay triumphing over stupid gameplay. And as for the theoretical people you claim are quitting by the millions, if they aren't willing to bother defending themselves, they are not wanted. Period. Good riddance.

I would rather have no EVE at all, than kowtow to the likes of you.

Do not quit, adapt. That is what a sandbox is. And this is YOUR sandbox.

A new miner can get into a Procurer within 10 days, and be decently tank fitted within 30 days.

A fitted Procurer will only cost you around 40M isk, and will require substantial firepower to eliminate (as John E Normus so eloquently stated in the thread below).

When the miners adapt, it will be a new horizon for Eve.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=379120

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Procurathon in November.
Empire Space is Worth Fighting For.

Spread the word...

It is not an exploit.

If there is one thing I keep telling new players (after recruitment by ganking), it is the key to survivability is adaptability. Either you remain flexible and adapt, or you get slaughtered like a carebears bleating for a safer New Eden.

New Eden is meant to be a dark, cruel, harsh and ruthless place. So long as it remains this way, EVE survives. You make it too safe, and it dies. This is the one MMO that caters to those who are thinkers, planners, tacticians and strategists. This is why most who adapt remain, as it is a game that requires conscious thought. Not mindless leveling. The beauty of EVE rests in its brutality.

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