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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1161 - 2014-10-13 19:52:19 UTC
Removed some off topic posts.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1162 - 2014-10-13 20:05:23 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Pretty certain he'll come closer to fixing nullsec with his changes than you ever will with your changes.



C'mon man be open minded. You're running from this idea like it's a wrecking ball

Lord TGR wrote:
So that just means that CCP are being good DMs by making sure players aren't suffering because of CCP's long-standing mistakes, by fixing the problem of overly easy movement of things like carriers, dreads etc, and you can't say that carriers, dreads etc are in a good position with how quickly they can move from one side of the universe to the other.


Suppose somebody were to 'fix' chess by giving the queen the same move as the king?

Lord TGR wrote:
It's certainly less clumsy than the suggestion which'll be circumvented by just creating more alliances to reduce the costs


It's not an issue of ship stats. It's an issue of politics. to properly loosen the impasse, changes which affect politics are much more likely to be effective.

Lord TGR wrote:
Hmm. hisec wannabees, or "their own volunteers". So, renters?


ANY small outfit with the balls to jump down the lion's throat.


Lord TGR wrote:
You do realize that being able to take gates is a massive buff to capitals, right?


Provided you can field a MASSIVE fleet to do it with. DO you really think that arrogance will sway people to your point of view?



Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1163 - 2014-10-13 20:12:59 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Just think it through......FC could pay some hisec wannabes , or get some of their own volunteers to go to ANY open system in a target's space...... I can see where a little bit of effort at the right time could cause the other guy to work a LOT harder getting rid of it. Whack-a-mole anyone?
under current mechanics, not really. the alliances and coalitions that used to hold the space would simply light cynos and drop supers for a few minutes on each one and come back for the timers (assuming they missed them . In lieu of that they would let the TCU go up and then make it exceptionally difficult to do anything productive in the system and then the costs come in with no new revenue and sov drops. And continuously trying to plant TCUs as they are interdicted or destroyed would be costly for all but the similar sized groups. it would be annoying at first, but it would be a serious drain on the aggressor with very little to show for it.
Polo Marco wrote:
Some people who trained pilots for the better part of a year to ride a HORSE might not be happy getting stuck with a TURTLE.

Ya think?

I'm surprised there's not a petition or thread around about being able to untrain cap skills for an SP refund.
Thats perfectly fine imo. If we simply say we can't change things because it might make some people angry or remove some capability then we would not have much room for negaotiation on any changes. Crius would not have been possible, Supercapital nerfs, Heavy missile nerfs (arguable on how far the nerf went), nano-MWD battleships, hurricane nerf, and various others. Capitals are still very capable in their own right, especially carriers. Some have even been concerned that the power of roaming gangs of nano-warpspeed-rigged carriers is going to be a bad thing (I'll hold my final opinion until I see it in action). I have 3 characters with JDC 5 and one just started training for a super. The only alt I even considered retiring was the cyno alt, but I decided to repurpose it instead (mining might become important aspect of null in the coming months).

I'm kind of glad the gates aspect is open now since it helps people who do not like the idea of having to make alts for cynos. I hope that this is going to start a trend of CCP treating capitals and supers as personal assets, rather than corp or alliance property. Thats just my opinion on that matter.

And don't worry, some people have tried to demand refunds, but the threads either died or got locked.....so far.
Polo Marco wrote:
No doubt. Depending on which dev you listen to they've as much as said they are trolling the forums for good ideas. They've let these threads run on and on - trolls, R/Qs and all. But I also see dodging negative criticism and being secretive about the 'big plan' and that worries me. So here I sit.
I can't speak for CCPs plans for the future other than the vague goals theyve given us in the dev blogs, so I won't really speak on any specifics of their plan until I have heard them myself. However, the suggestion that sov will become less binary does spark some imagination and optimism.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#1164 - 2014-10-13 20:17:58 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Amazing how many people fail to see that being able to cross gates is a MASSIVE boost to capitals. They will be Even MORE powerful now on the tactical level, they are just less strategically immediate. That means they can apply even more power than before with more combat options, but they cannot do it in the blink of an eye from the other side of the map.

The only real problem I see with the changes will be titans crossing gates and screwing up any camps or fleets at other side by sheer mega bumping.

The ability to use stargates is a huge buff, yes, but one with huge risks associated with it. I've warmed up to the idea of gates and timers and fatigue, but I still feel like the changes to jump range are just plain too much.

I see the nullsec blocs fighting for ownership of systems at either end, preferably at both ends, of long inter-regional stargate jumps (or even longer intra-regional stargate jumps). Anyone who maintains control over a way to move ships quickly without generating fatigue will have an advantage.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1165 - 2014-10-13 20:20:50 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
C'mon man be open minded. You're running from this idea like it's a wrecking ball

I'm calling a spade for a spade, and a bad idea for a bad idea.

Polo Marco wrote:
Suppose somebody were to 'fix' chess by giving the queen the same move as the king?

Why? What's changed?

Polo Marco wrote:
It's not an issue of ship stats. It's an issue of politics. to properly loosen the impasse, changes which affect politics are much more likely to be effective.

Before we had the first iteration of the sov system, alliances "claimed" the space they could defend, and the borders flowed back and forth organically depending on the mood of everyone on any given day.

The same would happen if we were to "drop" sov due to costs, which means these hisec heroes of yours (which apparently still haven't set foot outside of hisec for fear of the big boys, but which'll magically grow cojones because "sov is dropped". Roll

Polo Marco wrote:
ANY small outfit with the balls to jump down the lion's throat.

You won't find them in hisec.

Speaking of, the only thing a "small outfit" can reliably do is drop a TCU. To get anything out of a system will require an IHUB, which is 750k m3, and can't easily be snuck in. Good luck with that. But hey, if someone wants to claim sov and pay for something they can't use because we'd **** in their cereal, who am I to stop them?

Polo Marco wrote:
Provided you can field a MASSIVE fleet to do it with. DO you really think that arrogance will sway people to your point of view?

No, you don't need a MASSIVE fleet to do it with, you just need more than the other guy. Alternatively, you can be not **** at it, and avoid the other guy's fleet by using the caps' mobility to bypass the camp.

Or you can realize that no, you're not getting in there today, in which case the changes are working just as intended, by adding chokepoints to the eve universe, thus making eve bigger AND a more fun game to play.

Unlike your idea of "grind the renters harder for sov money". Roll
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1166 - 2014-10-13 20:38:08 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
If the capital is expected to travel through gates, it should have special abilities to make it so that gate travel was not extremely risky and thus suicide.
Large ships are always vulnerable to smaller ones. Capitals, Battleships, etc. Size and cost is not a guarantee of safety. This leads to rich players having exceedingly huge advantages for simply having expensive things. That is why some people have argued to take away the ewar immunity.

Andy Landen wrote:
1) Warp bubble immunity is a "must" otherwise the cap will be slow boating at around 50m/s through a bubble with extreme vulnerabilities to being bumped. +2-4 to warp core strength is also a really good idea and makes sense because it is such a big ship, otherwise it will be insta-locked by the first interceptor to land on grid before the 30-60s cap align time for warping out.
Solo [spaceship] being caught solo? Perfectly acceptable. And all carriers, dreads, and supers have the tools to destroy these bubbles if they cause problems, and leaving them affected would allow for actual delay tactics and add more strategy to the game. And while they have been nerfed, your jump drive still works if you deem it necessary.

Andy Landen wrote:
2) After getting tackled by a cheap interceptor, the capital ship would then have to spend 30-60s just to lock the little ship up. The carrier would require another 30-60s more to get the drones on it. 1-2 min of being tackled is plenty of time for an enemy fleet to come in from beyond scout range and take over the tackle. Non-carrier capitals won't even be able to track the interceptor.
Then they shouldn't be caught alone. These are personal assets, but not solo ships.

Andy Landen wrote:
3) Capitals should be made immune to bumping. It is absurd that a little ship could possibly get enough momentum to even remotely affect the momentum of a capital (if we completely abandoned physics, then nothing would make any sense at all).

Should we also include freighter into these changes as well? Again, size and cost do not guarantee safety of any kind.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1167 - 2014-10-13 21:24:36 UTC
Btw, has CCP addressed the mechanics involved with gate travel (warping fleet to 0, appearance on other side of gate) with specifics yet? Last I checked on sisi, two titans could easily occupy the same space on the other side of the gate after jumping through.
Anthar Thebess
#1168 - 2014-10-13 21:39:05 UTC
Can we get some new nullsec gate connections that could shift current universe a bit?
For example Stain to North lowsec, Venal to south lowsec, or something that will shakeup some of the local travel routes, and will make some of the space more viable for the living , making at the same time some dead ends more viable.
Something from my own yard.
Total dead end :
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Moros,044/HED-GP:ZDYA-G ( i know that nothing will survive this trip, bit this is just to point some stuff).

Can we get some new gates that will bring this part of space back to life, especially after the change :
Something like :
YE17-R <>ZDYA-G

This dead end pocket after those changes will be safe haven for all ratting people, and just by adding new gate you are creating something that will thrive , while it will be still cut off from any higsec or lowsec.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#1169 - 2014-10-13 21:41:44 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Btw, has CCP addressed the mechanics involved with gate travel (warping fleet to 0, appearance on other side of gate) with specifics yet? Last I checked on sisi, two titans could easily occupy the same space on the other side of the gate after jumping through.



And once they all break cloak the bowling begins. When this first came out, bump mechanics were brought in to question. If supers are on the move, I would have no choice but to dock up. My FPS will become frames per minute just waiting for the Titans to situate.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1170 - 2014-10-13 21:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Rowells wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
What I think would eventually happen, if the null population is allowed to grow, and sovereignity rules used concord fees to penalize idle space, and excessively large titleholders as per:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5078735#post5078735

is that the current PAX MEGACORPUS (hey I just coined that :P ) will dissolve under its own weight. No need to use burdensome, indfividual player punishing rule changes to try to beat the game into some dev's personal vision.
So, basically your proposal encourages an existing system such as PL/N3 where they let players use the space in exchange for payments that ensure the renter doesnt get roflstomped out of their systems and replaced with the next eager tenant. And a simple change to breaking up NA/BoT into smaller alliances (most likely based of regions and still ultimately answering to the landlord) would circumvent any extra costs. It doesnt change any active factors. And if the landlords notice certain space not being worth the cost due to underuse, they let the sov drop and simply smack down any attempts to take it from them without proper compensation. This is all easily done with current mechanics. These changes don't completely render that impossible. It is one step in a process. And i dont expect renting to ever disappear so long as one person wants the benefits of the space without taking the major risks and is willing to pay for it.

The current situation allows massive blob of large ships to have relative agility much higher than even the fastest small ships, in the form of jump drives. The changes will curb that movement.


My proposal would also leave a lot of FREE SPACE. With no sov. The fragmenting of the blocs themselves can be worked around in a general way with alt alliances and the like, but it places just that much more game grind burden -alliance fees office billing structure maintenance etc - on the relatively limited circle of players at the top management of a megacorp, not the average player. And we have seen over and over that burnout is the biggest giant killer of all in this game. Punishing all the players hoping to curb the behavior of a few will not likely solve the problem and will probably put more strain on a business model that is already facing declining player population.

Don't blame the rules of the game here. Historically speaking, what we have here is DETENTE. 2 or 3 massive power blocs shying away from a major war which would probably destroy everybody involved. The RL cold war was eased off through diplomacy and the natural power erosion that comes to all powerful political entities at some point. There was no divine intervention. Zeus's hammer didn't come flying out of the heavens and strike the nuclear arsenals of the world down.

And whether he wants it to or not, Greyscale's hammer isn't going to do that either. No matter how hard he swings it.

you seem to completely ignored the part where a system with no sov is not free. You still have to take it from the neighbors who dont want you there, who in this case, can show up within minutes to crush your hopes and dreams and still be home in a small period of time. And when they get more renters, open up new alliance and claim sov. And as a group grows you get a larger group of talent to tap into (and pay) to do things for you. And since the landlord has authority over these renters they can

And the real life cold war had quite a few more factors involved than eve does. Most importantly the fact that people could actually die and preferred not too. Also considering the fact that most blocs are avoiding massive wars because 4000+ player 10% tidi fights are cool events, but not very fun for the average person.

And like it's been said multiple times, this is not a single swing of the hammer in hopes the nail goes in, it is a tap that will drive it farther. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is the final or most important step in the process. And in that logic, don't thin any single 'silver bullet' change will solve all the problems. Thats bad thinking.

E: also be aware, renter empires are a symptom not the problem itself.

Gotta luv spending time writing a reply for it to disappear when you hit "post"

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1171 - 2014-10-13 22:52:24 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Can we get some new nullsec gate connections that could shift current universe a bit?
For example Stain to North lowsec, Venal to south lowsec, or something that will shakeup some of the local travel routes, and will make some of the space more viable for the living , making at the same time some dead ends more viable.
Something from my own yard.
Total dead end :
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Moros,044/HED-GP:ZDYA-G ( i know that nothing will survive this trip, bit this is just to point some stuff).

Can we get some new gates that will bring this part of space back to life, especially after the change :
Something like :
YE17-R <>ZDYA-G

This dead end pocket after those changes will be safe haven for all ratting people, and just by adding new gate you are creating something that will thrive , while it will be still cut off from any higsec or lowsec.

Venal doesn't need this. It has a perfectly serviceable route that avoids all conquerable 0.0.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1172 - 2014-10-13 22:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Polo Marco
Lord TGR wrote:
Before we had the first iteration of the sov system, alliances "claimed" the space they could defend, and the borders flowed back and forth organically depending on the mood of everyone on any given day.

The same would happen if we were to "drop" sov due to costs, which means these hisec heroes of yours (which apparently still haven't set foot outside of hisec for fear of the big boys, but which'll magically grow ******* because "sov is dropped".


Not exactly the same. Systems where development has occurred would not be as quickly conquerable. If you had a few days, yes,
but the sov system is designed to require a sustained large effort in order too completely subdue space, unlike before.

Lord TGR wrote:
You won't find them in hisec.



Give them a Tcu with a reward upon completion. The secret of good hisec players is they like isk more than killmails. Imagine that.

Lord TGR wrote:
Unlike your idea of "grind the renters harder for sov money".


Sounds rather stressful for both sides. Might even cause problems, Ya think?



Rowells wrote:
And continuously trying to plant TCUs as they are interdicted or destroyed would be costly for all but the similar sized groups. it would be annoying at first, but it would be a serious drain on the aggressor with very little to show for it.


Money is the one thing in this game that I am best acquainted with. I see it as requiring far less effort to chuck one out there than to remove it. But that's strictly for hostile intent. If a smaller group moved in next to you and really impressed you with their fighting spirit and general high level of play, could you honestly tell me that you would NEVER relent to deal with them as something other than victims?

Neither of these options are practical under the current system, and I think more player choices and opportunities always improve any game. It's why I like caps in Eve and queens in chess. They make the game much more complex and three dimensional. Better players will thrive and poorer ones will suffer.


Rowells wrote:
Capitals are still very capable in their own right, especially carriers.


In a fleet roll, yes, just less mobile. But here again the smaller users get hobbled because their main use for carriers is ship transport and ratting. Ratters whose safe jump outs are compromised by this will have to go back to subcapital ships. T2 ship construction will likely move to hisec, and corp redeployments will be severely compromised. They will get nothing on the plus side to offset this.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1173 - 2014-10-13 22:55:05 UTC
Rowells wrote:
I'm kind of glad the gates aspect is open now since it helps people who do not like the idea of having to make alts for cynos.


This convenience comes in Pandora's Box. I'm not going to go yay or nay on this. I do think it should be deployed provisionally in its own isolated release and monitored carefully in case it's a game breaker.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1174 - 2014-10-13 23:03:28 UTC
Querns wrote:
Venal doesn't need this. It has a perfectly serviceable route that avoids all conquerable 0.0.

A route for capitals in general, or just one for JFs?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1175 - 2014-10-13 23:08:06 UTC
Skyler Hawk wrote:
Querns wrote:
Venal doesn't need this. It has a perfectly serviceable route that avoids all conquerable 0.0.

A route for capitals in general, or just one for JFs?

Just one for JFs. All other capitals are pretty screwed at getting to npc 0.0 in general. IIRC, only Syndicate, Outer Ring, and NPC Pure Blind remain in range from lowsec.

However, other capitals can fit cloaks, and can defend themselves if attacked (to varying degrees of success.) For example, I never hesitate to mid a rorqual in unfriendly space, even if there is nowhere to dock or no POS shield in which to hide, because the rorqual has a cloak. The JF is largely defenseless.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1176 - 2014-10-13 23:29:32 UTC
Querns wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Can we get some new nullsec gate connections that could shift current universe a bit?
For example Stain to North lowsec, Venal to south lowsec, or something that will shakeup some of the local travel routes, and will make some of the space more viable for the living , making at the same time some dead ends more viable.
Something from my own yard.
Total dead end :
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Moros,044/HED-GP:ZDYA-G ( i know that nothing will survive this trip, bit this is just to point some stuff).

Can we get some new gates that will bring this part of space back to life, especially after the change :
Something like :
YE17-R <>ZDYA-G

This dead end pocket after those changes will be safe haven for all ratting people, and just by adding new gate you are creating something that will thrive , while it will be still cut off from any higsec or lowsec.

Venal doesn't need this. It has a perfectly serviceable route that avoids all conquerable 0.0.

You keep saying that but it keeps coming up as an issue.
I can't find it and obviously others can't either.
Venal is bordered by Branch,Deklein, Tribute and Perrigen Falls

How about put (it) up or shutup.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1177 - 2014-10-13 23:49:44 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Querns wrote:

Venal doesn't need this. It has a perfectly serviceable route that avoids all conquerable 0.0.

You keep saying that but it keeps coming up as an issue.
I can't find it and obviously others can't either.
Venal is bordered by Branch,Deklein, Tribute and Perrigen Falls

How about put (it) up or shutup.

Okay, okay, fine. I can't believe none of you figured this out.

The trick is to stop thinking "lowsec." You actually want to look to the west, to NPC Pure Blind.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Moros,444/Aunenen:5ZXX-K:H-PA29

(note: JDC4 dread today = JDC5 JF post-phoebe)

I'd use a different starting point than Aunenen, personally, but there's a couple of lowsec border systems in range of 5ZXX that you can use. From H-PA, you can hit every other station in Venal.

This route takes you into Venal without having to mid in potentially unfriendly conquerable 0.0.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1178 - 2014-10-14 00:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Respect your opinion Polo, but I have to say this.

Your analogy of Cap ships being essentially a queen in a game of chess being nerfed to having the same movement capability as a king has a minor flaw.

If you used a direct comparison between EVE and Chess, currently the queen is able to jump several tables over and take a key piece in another game.

With the proposed changes, your queen will still be able to move in any direction from one end of the board to the other, she is just limited to only doing so on her particular board.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1179 - 2014-10-14 00:36:10 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Gotta luv spending time writing a reply for it to disappear when you hit "post"

You have my condolences for your loss. RIP wall o' text.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1180 - 2014-10-14 00:37:22 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
You do realize that being able to take gates is a massive buff to capitals, right?

Provided you can field a MASSIVE fleet to do it with. DO you really think that arrogance will sway people to your point of view?

Absolutely not.

I use these undockable things strictly for small gang and solo pvp only.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?