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FW O-plexing fix
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Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#41 - 2014-10-12 18:18:49 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Squatdog wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
simple idea: Get rid of the absurd reps on the npcs and replace them with an adequate amount of buffer tank, as well as bumping up their dps to a useful level. This will allow for more ships to do offensive plexing for mediums and larges, as well as not giving the defenders too much of an advantage.


No.





The NPCs are there to stop offensive plexes being chain-farmed by week-old stabbed, cloaky farming alts. That's what defensive plexes are for.

That's also why i'm advocating increasing the dps. What I'm saying is that while you should still have to work for it, you should be able to do everything up to a large in a frigate, assuming you've got a decent fit and know how to get under his guns. The idea would be that the even smaller rats would do enough dps and to take down a stabbed frigate if left unchecked. I think it's better content to work for your money than to be sit there or be locked out of it entirely.


Your idea is s**t, no offense.

Other players are there to make you work for you LP, if that is your priority. Rats are just there to make sure that you are not afk and have a somewhat fitted ship.

Getting rid of evasion farmers with cloaks and stabs would be as easy as making the button non-runnable by any ship with a stab or cloak fitted.

Oh please; you know they'd never go for excluding certain modules since it 'inhibits content'. There was a good idea earlier about having each complex having a friendly and enemy militia NPC in it, which I think makes a lot more sense than splitting hairs about how the plex NPC that somehow obviously has to be there for whatever reason should be balanced. The only thing I'm pushing with this is flipping the defensive block with a more manageable offensive one for what one runs up against when going out to oplex.
I'm a bit more concerned about my ability to cap systems than farm complexes, btw. While it's easy to dplex it's also boring and unbalanced in relation to offensive plexing; I'd rather have both be balanced in some way to the other than have one be absurdly easy and the other one force me to ship up if I want to run mediums or larges. Forcing content doesn't create it.


Capping systems is not a solo activity, nor should it be expected to be. Once you start pushing a system with a group rats become a non-factor. Working as intended.

Currently, rats are a non factor for an organised system siege, rats are a non factor in solo pvp, rats are a non factor for most frigates running novices, and larger ships in larger plexes. What in the actual f**k are you even complaining about?

The only time a rat is a problem is when s****y farmers want to capture medium and large plexes in frigates. Something that thankfully has been designed out of the game.

The only thing atm that could do with a look at is d-plexing. To which the idea of opposing faction rats locked in combat would be a solution, which incidentally was also my idea.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#42 - 2014-10-12 18:19:28 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Squatdog wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
simple idea: Get rid of the absurd reps on the npcs and replace them with an adequate amount of buffer tank, as well as bumping up their dps to a useful level. This will allow for more ships to do offensive plexing for mediums and larges, as well as not giving the defenders too much of an advantage.


No.





The NPCs are there to stop offensive plexes being chain-farmed by week-old stabbed, cloaky farming alts. That's what defensive plexes are for.

That's also why i'm advocating increasing the dps. What I'm saying is that while you should still have to work for it, you should be able to do everything up to a large in a frigate, assuming you've got a decent fit and know how to get under his guns. The idea would be that the even smaller rats would do enough dps and to take down a stabbed frigate if left unchecked. I think it's better content to work for your money than to be sit there or be locked out of it entirely.


Your idea is s**t, no offense.

Other players are there to make you work for you LP, if that is your priority. Rats are just there to make sure that you are not afk and have a somewhat fitted ship.

Getting rid of evasion farmers with cloaks and stabs would be as easy as making the button non-runnable by any ship with a stab or cloak fitted.

Oh please; you know they'd never go for excluding certain modules since it 'inhibits content'. There was a good idea earlier about having each complex having a friendly and enemy militia NPC in it, which I think makes a lot more sense than splitting hairs about how the plex NPC that somehow obviously has to be there for whatever reason should be balanced. The only thing I'm pushing with this is flipping the defensive block with a more manageable offensive one for what one runs up against when going out to oplex.
I'm a bit more concerned about my ability to cap systems than farm complexes, btw. While it's easy to dplex it's also boring and unbalanced in relation to offensive plexing; I'd rather have both be balanced in some way to the other than have one be absurdly easy and the other one force me to ship up if I want to run mediums or larges. Forcing content doesn't create it.


The way things are now, content is already restricted for PvP fits, while farming plexes in stabbed, cloaked ships is still entirely possible. The changes saw a shift toward different hulls being used to farm LP, hulls with more low slots for stabs and DPS mods. Drone boats became popular because they can still farm while afk. The anti-cloak bubble neutralised other popular tactics, with very little negative impact on farmers. The cloak didn't make them any safer, it just simplified the evasion techniques.

While you're correct in asserting that offensive and defensive plexing should be balanced, your method of doing it is flawed. Any increase in NPC DPS can change how a battle between two pilots ends. Any DPS check on the NPCs negatively impacts low DPS kiting fits, as well as new players.

The simplest and most effective way of reducing farmer capabilities is to prevent stabbed ships entering plexes. Banning cloaks as well is less of an issue, as it can negatively impact legitimate PVP tactics. Remove stabs, and balance offensive and defensive plexing, we might be a bit closer to a truly healthy warzone. The current system was a step in the right direction, but at a significant cost to the viability of several PVP fits. Simply copying these flawed mechanics across offensive and defensive plexing only compounds the issue, and completely locks out a section of players from being of any use to warzone control.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#43 - 2014-10-12 18:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
I disagree, if you chose to fly a low-dps kite, or are a new player it should be expected that you fly in a group to be effective in any way.

If each plex had a friendly and a hostile rat, locked in a perpetual fight with each other, they would no longer have any effect on any type of pvp. All you have to do is shoot the hostile rat when it spawns as a dps check.

If people make the choice to undock in a ship that does 60dps, i have come to think their choice should have a consequence even if that is being unable to solo a novice plex. This is a trade off against the advantages that a fast kite offers.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#44 - 2014-10-12 18:54:05 UTC
If my low DPS kiting ship can kill or force off an enemy player, I fail to see why poor game mechanics should prevent it from being useful in contesting systems. When module rebalancing and plex changes forces a player to choose between contesting a system or kiting, that's poor design, and shouldn't be encouraged.

It's fine, I know why you're okay with the current state of affairs, just don't try and pass it off as objective feedback.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#45 - 2014-10-12 19:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
May Arethusa wrote:
If my low DPS kiting ship can kill or force off an enemy player, I fail to see why poor game mechanics should prevent it from being useful in contesting systems. When module rebalancing and plex changes forces a player to choose between contesting a system or kiting, that's poor design, and shouldn't be encouraged.

It's fine, I know why you're okay with the current state of affairs, just don't try and pass it off as objective feedback.


Because you chose a ship with terrible dps due to other advantages it offers. Dont pick a ship with an anemic dps and expect to effect where other players can dock all by yourself. Kites have a place in occupancy war, but perhaps they dont have a place in completing plexes solo.

I will use whatever mechanics are available to my advantage. But lets not forget that the solution you liked where 2 opposing rats fight in each plex was MY idea, before you start questioning other peoples motives. That change would bring perfect balance to o+d plexing. Though i think in combination with blue balling strategies it would just lead to systems flipping back and forth unless LP for d-plexing was brought up to the level of o-plexing.

As for people being able to undock with the absolute minimum dps possible (if any) and be effective, weve been there, it was ridiculous.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-10-12 21:29:39 UTC
I understand that you have a tradeoff for using a kite fit, but there is already a trade-off. Kite fits have no tank, they are all speed.

NPC Rats should NOT be determining which ships you can take into a plex. A DPS check to make sure he's not bringing WCS or cloaks? Why beat around the bush and stop kite fits, just stop people from running the timer down if they have t1 cloaks or stabs. Eliminating kite fits because we're trying to stop farmers, and then calling it a good thing, is a bad unintended consequence.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#47 - 2014-10-12 21:38:56 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
I understand that you have a tradeoff for using a kite fit, but there is already a trade-off. Kite fits have no tank, they are all speed.

NPC Rats should NOT be determining which ships you can take into a plex. A DPS check to make sure he's not bringing WCS or cloaks? Why beat around the bush and stop kite fits, just stop people from running the timer down if they have t1 cloaks or stabs. Eliminating kite fits because we're trying to stop farmers, and then calling it a good thing, is a bad unintended consequence.


No one is eliminating kite fits. Im just thinking that solo kites fitted with terrible dps perhaps shouldnt be able to take systems from people alone. Fly in groups, fixed.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-10-12 23:49:30 UTC
Solo pilots have never been able to take systems, its always been a group effort.


Also, we are only discriminating against kite frigates here. Kiting cruisers and destroyers quite easily meet their DPS checks. (My 150mm corm hits 230ish dps with regular AM)
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#49 - 2014-10-13 00:19:53 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Solo pilots have never been able to take systems, its always been a group effort.


Also, we are only discriminating against kite frigates here. Kiting cruisers and destroyers quite easily meet their DPS checks. (My 150mm corm hits 230ish dps with regular AM)


You are correct, the tank on small med and large rats should be increased. There are people doing up to larges in catalysts.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#50 - 2014-10-13 01:39:17 UTC
best solution is to remove lp reward from plexing and remove all rats totally.

then there is no more npc to complain about.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#51 - 2014-10-13 02:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Bad Messenger wrote:
best solution is to remove lp reward from plexing and remove all rats totally.

then there is no more npc to complain about.


Or any activity for anyone to be concerned with in low sec either. GOOD IDEA!

MAKE FW LOW SEC LIKE NON FW LOW SEC!!! + eleventyone
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#52 - 2014-10-13 03:24:36 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
May Arethusa wrote:
If my low DPS kiting ship can kill or force off an enemy player, I fail to see why poor game mechanics should prevent it from being useful in contesting systems. When module rebalancing and plex changes forces a player to choose between contesting a system or kiting, that's poor design, and shouldn't be encouraged.

It's fine, I know why you're okay with the current state of affairs, just don't try and pass it off as objective feedback.


Because you chose a ship with terrible dps due to other advantages it offers. Dont pick a ship with an anemic dps and expect to effect where other players can dock all by yourself. Kites have a place in occupancy war, but perhaps they dont have a place in completing plexes solo.

I will use whatever mechanics are available to my advantage. But lets not forget that the solution you liked where 2 opposing rats fight in each plex was MY idea, before you start questioning other peoples motives. That change would bring perfect balance to o+d plexing. Though i think in combination with blue balling strategies it would just lead to systems flipping back and forth unless LP for d-plexing was brought up to the level of o-plexing.

As for people being able to undock with the absolute minimum dps possible (if any) and be effective, weve been there, it was ridiculous.


Go beat your chest in one of the other GalMil circle jerk threads Crosi, I'm really not interested. A good idea is a good idea, regardless of its source. How's your kiting Garmur doing these days, still dictating where people can and can't dock I assume? When you're talking sense, I'll happily agree with you, but when you're being hypocritical, expect it to be pointed out.

I still think your idea has merit by the way, and I'd like to see it implemented. Yet when a "minor" change to a weapon system prevents a large portion of its users from performing the relatively simple task of killing an NPC (despite being fully combat fit and more than capable of dispatching hostile pilots), it's a strong indication that the mechanic in place (in this case, the DPS check) is flawed. I highly doubt it was even considered in CCP's quest to expunge the Sniper Crow and LML Malediction from New Eden.

Prevent stabbed ships from entering plexes, and you remove the need for a DPS check. The issue was never with how much damage they could do, it was their ability to run plexes at zero risk to themselves, while paying no attention to the game. This hasn't changed, the methods have simply been altered to compensate. It may have made the problem less obvious, at a price. One that got worse in the wake of Oceanus.

Until you remove their safety net, there will always be stabbed farmers running plexes while AFK for profit. Any changes other than stabs being removed from the equation are redundant.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#53 - 2014-10-13 06:43:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
May Arethusa wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
May Arethusa wrote:
If my low DPS kiting ship can kill or force off an enemy player, I fail to see why poor game mechanics should prevent it from being useful in contesting systems. When module rebalancing and plex changes forces a player to choose between contesting a system or kiting, that's poor design, and shouldn't be encouraged.

It's fine, I know why you're okay with the current state of affairs, just don't try and pass it off as objective feedback.


Because you chose a ship with terrible dps due to other advantages it offers. Dont pick a ship with an anemic dps and expect to effect where other players can dock all by yourself. Kites have a place in occupancy war, but perhaps they dont have a place in completing plexes solo.

I will use whatever mechanics are available to my advantage. But lets not forget that the solution you liked where 2 opposing rats fight in each plex was MY idea, before you start questioning other peoples motives. That change would bring perfect balance to o+d plexing. Though i think in combination with blue balling strategies it would just lead to systems flipping back and forth unless LP for d-plexing was brought up to the level of o-plexing.

As for people being able to undock with the absolute minimum dps possible (if any) and be effective, weve been there, it was ridiculous.


Go beat your chest in one of the other GalMil circle jerk threads Crosi, I'm really not interested. A good idea is a good idea, regardless of its source. How's your kiting Garmur doing these days, still dictating where people can and can't dock I assume? When you're talking sense, I'll happily agree with you, but when you're being hypocritical, expect it to be pointed out.

I still think your idea has merit by the way, and I'd like to see it implemented. Yet when a "minor" change to a weapon system prevents a large portion of its users from performing the relatively simple task of killing an NPC (despite being fully combat fit and more than capable of dispatching hostile pilots), it's a strong indication that the mechanic in place (in this case, the DPS check) is flawed. I highly doubt it was even considered in CCP's quest to expunge the Sniper Crow and LML Malediction from New Eden.

Prevent stabbed ships from entering plexes, and you remove the need for a DPS check. The issue was never with how much damage they could do, it was their ability to run plexes at zero risk to themselves, while paying no attention to the game. This hasn't changed, the methods have simply been altered to compensate. It may have made the problem less obvious, at a price. One that got worse in the wake of Oceanus.

Until you remove their safety net, there will always be stabbed farmers running plexes while AFK for profit. Any changes other than stabs being removed from the equation are redundant.


Ill use my garmur and alts to defend systems until mechanics change. Nothing hypocritical there. In fact i penned the idea of dueling rats in each plex which would impact me personally more than most people out there.

If that did happen and my garmur became impotent in terms of completing plexes i could live with that. My garmur has its place, but its so very good that i could live with it not being capable of completing plexes on top of all its other niceties.

Incidentally, my ideas to fix FW stand at;

Dueling rats in all plexes. These do not interfere with players and still act as a dps check.
Prevent ships with cloaks and stabs from running timers, let them enter plex but the button should not respond to their presence.

I want FW to be a good playing field for everyone. These simple changes would impact me more than most, but they are needed to make FW fairer.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#54 - 2014-10-13 12:36:37 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
best solution is to remove lp reward from plexing and remove all rats totally.

then there is no more npc to complain about.


Or any activity for anyone to be concerned with in low sec either. GOOD IDEA!

MAKE FW LOW SEC LIKE NON FW LOW SEC!!! + eleventyone


no one playing fw because of rats in plexes.

People played FW before there was any rewards on it.

So lp and rats in plexes has anything to with fw.

If you give lp it means that you will get more farmers to do fw and those are just people who does not care about fw, they want just lp/isk.
Arla Sarain
#55 - 2014-10-13 12:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
May Arethusa wrote:
The issue was never with how much damage they could do, it was their ability to run plexes at zero risk to themselves, while paying no attention to the game.

I think this as fundamental as it gets. Everything else discussed just sounds like bravado competition.

I bet CCPs design choice hinged not on procedure, but on the availability of tools - changing NPC stats is datatable/database manipulation, whilst gate activation rules, that are based on fit modules, might not have had the required parameters in whatever UI or software holding the settings for those objects.Hence why it wasn't done in the first place: because it wasn't as easy as 1 - 2 - 3.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#56 - 2014-10-13 13:06:27 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
best solution is to remove lp reward from plexing and remove all rats totally.

then there is no more npc to complain about.


Or any activity for anyone to be concerned with in low sec either. GOOD IDEA!

MAKE FW LOW SEC LIKE NON FW LOW SEC!!! + eleventyone


no one playing fw because of rats in plexes.

People played FW before there was any rewards on it.

So lp and rats in plexes has anything to with fw.

If you give lp it means that you will get more farmers to do fw and those are just people who does not care about fw, they want just lp/isk.


Perhaps they did for 6 months when it was new. Then it died for over a year where you damar and val erian were the only people in the game that EVER entered a plex. If you gonna troll at least make it believable.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-10-13 17:57:29 UTC
Honestly, FW needs farmers to succeed. I was getting the most and best fights before the FW changes. The issue is that they just need to be toned down from their previous levels. I honestly think CCP went too far in the changes. They either needed to make the rat respawn several times, or give the rat the DPS tank.

One of them would have been fine. Or even better, have them correspond to system rank. A tier 0 system would have 0 tank and only 1 rat, while the tier 5 systems have what we currently have.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#58 - 2014-10-13 18:46:42 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Honestly, FW needs farmers to succeed. I was getting the most and best fights before the FW changes. The issue is that they just need to be toned down from their previous levels. I honestly think CCP went too far in the changes. They either needed to make the rat respawn several times, or give the rat the DPS tank.

One of them would have been fine. Or even better, have them correspond to system rank. A tier 0 system would have 0 tank and only 1 rat, while the tier 5 systems have what we currently have.


I strongly disagree with your assessment of the warzone, also you dont seem to have been very active so not sure what you are basing your opinion on.

FW needed farmers to push the pendulum. Now the pendulum is gone what we are left with is a game of tug of war. Successful effort from actual players rewards progress in the occupancy war. This is good.

I disagree with your view on the rat changes. 1 rat would be far too easy to abuse.

System ranks effecting rat strength seems like a workable idea. Might lead to flip flop though. Also, apart from farmers not being able to run plexes easily i still dont recognise any real problem with he current rats. Plenty of people out there to fight.
Fret Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-10-13 19:46:05 UTC
Well was out of game for while so my fresh perspective on the changes in the Amarr militia:

-More small gangs of 4-6 people.

-Fewer soloers.

-Less people (more mission runners I believe less plex farmers)

-Less farmers

-More "good fights"

So the changes I think were overall positive. Not overly found of the reps on the large plex rats though. Novice-Medium seems about right to me.

CCP maybe could look into upping the % that goes to system control after u conquer a plex. Too much of grind for the amount of people active in fleet wars in my opinion. The slow rate that systems turn leads to fewer conflicts over system control.



Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2014-10-13 21:00:42 UTC
Changes are definitely overall positive. Though the DPS nerf was way too much. I would happily support something like the old DPS with the current tank and maybe a slightly longer respawn.

Better yet would be a more interesting overall system for NPC strength in plexes. I would love to see capturable systems be limited to "front lines" and system level transformed into something that actually affects the quality of NPC defenders. Could make the system capture game actually interesting to play on a strategic level.

Also, remove the missions entirely. They are bad game design in about every way. Either have the missions actually be integrated into the system capture mechanic, or remove them entirely.

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family