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Marauder bastion modules not going off line on disconnection.

Author
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#41 - 2014-10-12 19:38:16 UTC
afkalt wrote:


He didnt say all, he said most.

Something like 35 thousand dropped last night. You think they all have crappy connections?

There is also the matter of the (afaik) unprecedented speed and volume of reimburses during said ddos.


No idea, but at least you're giving me an actual event as an example. I've honestly never had a ddos related disconnect in the entire time that I've played EVE(7+ years), and it's never been a problem for any corporation that I've been a part of during the time that I've been members of those corporations(which is a very very lengthy list).

My sample of experience flies in the face of everything that has been said prior. Plus, the CCP post could easily be taken out of context. In the sense of irresponsible technical munchausen, when it's really just their own short comings.

But at the very least you're providing me with an actual event rather than straight up hearsay. Just first hand hearsay, but I'd be willing to trust yours.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#42 - 2014-10-12 20:02:48 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



That was on PURPOSE. BEfore the bastio would go off. but you would not warp because the remainign secodns of the bastion cycle would make your emergency warp fail. THen without bastion runnign you would die even faster.

Now bastion keeps running increasing a bit the chance that you can return in time to the game.



If the bastion turns off, as it used to turn on the release. YOU WOULD STILL NOT WARP OFF.

And you would die much faster.


You would think that CCP could code the Bastion mode....

Client --> Server Socket Closed
Server --> Client Ewarp Now
Client --> Server Bastion Mode is Activated, ask again in xx seconds when it shuts off
Server --> Client ACK
Client Turns off Bastion mode at the end of the cycle
...
...
Server --> Client Is the client still disconnected? If so, Ewarp now

Just note that I used the term client in the server to client talks as your client on the server side, not on your actual client. I just didn't know what else to call it, bit confusing though.



They already said they cannot do that. The best they coudl do is LEAVE the bastion mode on so you would at least get extra tank to survive until you reconnect.


TBH, that's a load of crap that they can't do that. Ewarp is just a command, and the server can tell the client to shut off any module it wishes, that's why it's the server and we only have clients. Any command that the client sends is simply a request for the server to do, the server is what makes demands.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Wizzard117
Wizzard117 Corporation
#43 - 2014-10-12 22:03:39 UTC
I believe that whatever fit on your ship should not work against a disconnect protection measures.
Because disconnect protection efforts are metagame mechanic but your ship fitting is only your ingame concern.
Like assume I went to the supermarket and eventually being denied of service because I'm wearing a red T-shirt currently.
But the current disonnect protection mechanic via emergency warp-out actually prevents some ships and some fits of these ships to be "disconnect protected" properly.
Maybe there's a need to make some changes to what happens ingame when disconnect happens to be protected regardless of anything
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2014-10-13 09:47:43 UTC
Kaerakh wrote:
afkalt wrote:


He didnt say all, he said most.

Something like 35 thousand dropped last night. You think they all have crappy connections?

There is also the matter of the (afaik) unprecedented speed and volume of reimburses during said ddos.


No idea, but at least you're giving me an actual event as an example. I've honestly never had a ddos related disconnect in the entire time that I've played EVE(7+ years), and it's never been a problem for any corporation that I've been a part of during the time that I've been members of those corporations(which is a very very lengthy list).

My sample of experience flies in the face of everything that has been said prior. Plus, the CCP post could easily be taken out of context. In the sense of irresponsible technical munchausen, when it's really just their own short comings.

But at the very least you're providing me with an actual event rather than straight up hearsay. Just first hand hearsay, but I'd be willing to trust yours.


I never had them before either, they started around the middle of the alliance tourny for me. They are documented, I find it hard to see you being unaffected, unless you're extremely lucky - the server was unavalable for quite some hours in the early days of it as you can see here if you are inclined https://twitter.com/EVE_status


My connection is pretty stable, perhaps 1 drop/3 months. These days when I drop it's followed by most of the corp, the guys in jita reporting it's suddenly losing 1k+ from local, you see the launcher down to 4 digits (if it even works).

At the time OP made the post, this was probably a more prevalent issue. It has chilled out a lot more since. It's partly my bad for resurrecting it, but I wanted to correct myself so people knew how to mitigate it.

Mitigation: Cap stable marauder.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2014-10-13 11:00:36 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



That was on PURPOSE. BEfore the bastio would go off. but you would not warp because the remainign secodns of the bastion cycle would make your emergency warp fail. THen without bastion runnign you would die even faster.

Now bastion keeps running increasing a bit the chance that you can return in time to the game.



If the bastion turns off, as it used to turn on the release. YOU WOULD STILL NOT WARP OFF.

And you would die much faster.


You would think that CCP could code the Bastion mode....

Client --> Server Socket Closed
Server --> Client Ewarp Now
Client --> Server Bastion Mode is Activated, ask again in xx seconds when it shuts off
Server --> Client ACK
Client Turns off Bastion mode at the end of the cycle
...
...
Server --> Client Is the client still disconnected? If so, Ewarp now

Just note that I used the term client in the server to client talks as your client on the server side, not on your actual client. I just didn't know what else to call it, bit confusing though.



They already said they cannot do that. The best they coudl do is LEAVE the bastion mode on so you would at least get extra tank to survive until you reconnect.


TBH, that's a load of crap that they can't do that. Ewarp is just a command, and the server can tell the client to shut off any module it wishes, that's why it's the server and we only have clients. Any command that the client sends is simply a request for the server to do, the server is what makes demands.



You would get reaally surprised how things that should be simple get messily complicated in a software 10 years old that has been patched by 100 developers and the ones that did the initial code are gone..

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#46 - 2014-10-13 13:32:13 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Kaerakh wrote:
afkalt wrote:


He didnt say all, he said most.

Something like 35 thousand dropped last night. You think they all have crappy connections?

There is also the matter of the (afaik) unprecedented speed and volume of reimburses during said ddos.


No idea, but at least you're giving me an actual event as an example. I've honestly never had a ddos related disconnect in the entire time that I've played EVE(7+ years), and it's never been a problem for any corporation that I've been a part of during the time that I've been members of those corporations(which is a very very lengthy list).

My sample of experience flies in the face of everything that has been said prior. Plus, the CCP post could easily be taken out of context. In the sense of irresponsible technical munchausen, when it's really just their own short comings.

But at the very least you're providing me with an actual event rather than straight up hearsay. Just first hand hearsay, but I'd be willing to trust yours.


I never had them before either, they started around the middle of the alliance tourny for me. They are documented, I find it hard to see you being unaffected, unless you're extremely lucky - the server was unavalable for quite some hours in the early days of it as you can see here if you are inclined https://twitter.com/EVE_status


My connection is pretty stable, perhaps 1 drop/3 months. These days when I drop it's followed by most of the corp, the guys in jita reporting it's suddenly losing 1k+ from local, you see the launcher down to 4 digits (if it even works).

At the time OP made the post, this was probably a more prevalent issue. It has chilled out a lot more since. It's partly my bad for resurrecting it, but I wanted to correct myself so people knew how to mitigate it.

Mitigation: Cap stable marauder.


Fair enough, as you correctly guessed. I was taking issue with the assertion that most connection related problems with EVE(period). Were related to DDoS attacks.
As for why I haven't experienced these issues it's probably related to the fact that I don't have to slave away on L4s all day to make isk.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#47 - 2014-10-13 14:24:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
It was stated earlier that a ship that was scrammed cannot safe warp because the ship cannot respond to the one and only safe warp command issued at DC. My experience proves that to be incorrect and if the server can override a scram then it can and should override the bastion and allow for a safe warp. Despite claims to the contrary this would be a easily fixed, why you may ask and the answer is simple. Once the client has DC'ed the servers are in complete control of the situation and that allows CCP to do what is right for the player.

In case there is some unimaginable difficulty in correcting this through the safe warp mechanic then the servers should adjust resists to 100% for all damage types in effect making the ship invulnerable and have unlimited cap.

To cause players to lose ships in a PvE situation that they have no control over is, well I can't use those terms here so we will just go with idiotic in the extreme and leave it at that.

Kaerakh wrote:
I've honestly never had a ddos related disconnect in the entire time that I've played EVE(7+ years), and it's never been a problem for any corporation that I've been a part of during the time that I've been members of those corporations(which is a very very lengthy list)..


Then you are an extremely lucky person. In a little over 4 years in the game I have experienced at least 3 DC's caused by DDOS attacks, at least CCP says they were DDOS attacks.

It has been asked but never answered. Is there a valid reason why a PvE ship with bastion running should not safe warp?
Is there some game breaking exploit that this would make possible?
And NO working as intended is not valid reason, it is simply your opinion. However if you are in possession of some form of proof for the statement of working as intended then please share the link.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#48 - 2014-10-13 14:39:23 UTC
Way back when, I was told by a dev or GM that when you disconnect while being attacked, all running defenses will stay on until you disappear or run out of cap. If the Bastion module is classified as a defensive Mod then it is probably the same. Alternatively it is possible (though I never tested this) that the module does turn off - but if it blocked your initial warp off attempt, does the disconnection/logoff try to warp you again?
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#49 - 2014-10-13 15:02:13 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:


Kaerakh wrote:
I've honestly never had a ddos related disconnect in the entire time that I've played EVE(7+ years), and it's never been a problem for any corporation that I've been a part of during the time that I've been members of those corporations(which is a very very lengthy list)..


Then you are an extremely lucky person. In a little over 4 years in the game I have experienced at least 3 DC's caused by DDOS attacks, at least CCP says they were DDOS attacks.


Honestly, your response makes me think you're justifying other inadequacies in your hardware, ISP, or location by latching onto the word DDoS. Mainly because I could select 10 people from my contacts list and they'd all say, "What, really?"

While I won't deny that the recent DDoSing might have caused any recent disconnects for you. I sincerely and fervently believe that the rest of those disconnects that you mentioned are probably among the group of people I mentioned earlier that can't tell a switch from a hub.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-10-13 15:46:01 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
It was stated earlier that a ship that was scrammed cannot safe warp because the ship cannot respond to the one and only safe warp command issued at DC. My experience proves that to be incorrect and if the server can override a scram then it can and should override the bastion and allow for a safe warp. Despite claims to the contrary this would be a easily fixed, why you may ask and the answer is simple. Once the client has DC'ed the servers are in complete control of the situation and that allows CCP to do what is right for the player.

In case there is some unimaginable difficulty in correcting this through the safe warp mechanic then the servers should adjust resists to 100% for all damage types in effect making the ship invulnerable and have unlimited cap.

To cause players to lose ships in a PvE situation that they have no control over is, well I can't use those terms here so we will just go with idiotic in the extreme and leave it at that.

Kaerakh wrote:
I've honestly never had a ddos related disconnect in the entire time that I've played EVE(7+ years), and it's never been a problem for any corporation that I've been a part of during the time that I've been members of those corporations(which is a very very lengthy list)..


Then you are an extremely lucky person. In a little over 4 years in the game I have experienced at least 3 DC's caused by DDOS attacks, at least CCP says they were DDOS attacks.

It has been asked but never answered. Is there a valid reason why a PvE ship with bastion running should not safe warp?
Is there some game breaking exploit that this would make possible?
And NO working as intended is not valid reason, it is simply your opinion. However if you are in possession of some form of proof for the statement of working as intended then please share the link.


Let me explain you a simple thing. This is a PVP game, and if they do as you want then that will be exploited in pvp.
If ships can e-warp while in bastion then people under attack will put bastion red, control-q, their ship woudl warp off and no one would be able to point it, then about 20 seconds later will re-log and will get enough time with that combined warps to land at station with the bastion no DOCK for 1 minute timer clean.

Simple example of why they CANNOT DO THAT! Marauders would get unkillable in station games

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2014-10-13 15:47:56 UTC
Kaerakh wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:


Kaerakh wrote:
I've honestly never had a ddos related disconnect in the entire time that I've played EVE(7+ years), and it's never been a problem for any corporation that I've been a part of during the time that I've been members of those corporations(which is a very very lengthy list)..


Then you are an extremely lucky person. In a little over 4 years in the game I have experienced at least 3 DC's caused by DDOS attacks, at least CCP says they were DDOS attacks.


Honestly, your response makes me think you're justifying other inadequacies in your hardware, ISP, or location by latching onto the word DDoS. Mainly because I could select 10 people from my contacts list and they'd all say, "What, really?"

While I won't deny that the recent DDoSing might have caused any recent disconnects for you. I sincerely and fervently believe that the rest of those disconnects that you mentioned are probably among the group of people I mentioned earlier that can't tell a switch from a hub.



And maybe we should quality you on the group of people that are extremely arrogant, way abouve their real knowledge?

Some of us are developers of other complex softwares, and still we do have disconnections. Even with hardware and ISPs as good as money can buy.

So shut up, the fact that you have not faced somethign is NOT evidence of the non existence of that event

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

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