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The ISBoxer Saga

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Khema Fera
Doomheim
#121 - 2014-10-13 04:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Khema Fera
Rosewalker wrote:
Okay, for everyone who is complaining about ISBoxer breaking the EULA, please remember that CCP has given ISBoxer dispensation from parts of the EULA. This time, I am going to quote the entire section on Client Modification from the Third Party Policies. In this section, please remember that "the multiboxing application" refers to ISBoxer.

Third Pary Policies wrote:

Client modification

Client modification is strictly prohibited, as per our EULA:

6. CONDUCT

A. Specifically Restricted Conduct

2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.

3. You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.


As well as 9.C:

You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology.

We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. For instance, the use of programs that provide in-game overlays (Mumble, Teamspeak) and the multiboxing application is not something we plan to actively police at this time. However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. Please use such third party applications or other software at your own risk.
So for anyone arguing that ISBoxer breaks the EULA on these grounds, CCP has considered the argument and found, "no harm, no foul". So please, if you want to argue against ISBoxer, please come up with other arguments. Personally, I think that CCP should just start designing and balancing the game with ISBoxer in mind.

Well, I think that just means the guy from earlier was right.. They don't care about it, but it is still against the EULA.
Quote:
We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. For instance, the use of programs that provide in-game overlays (Mumble, Teamspeak) and the multiboxing application is not something we plan to actively police at this time. However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. Please use such third party applications or other software at your own risk.
This makes me think that, while it's not allowed, CCP is currently fine with it being used but can police it if they want to.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#122 - 2014-10-13 07:49:03 UTC
Khema Fera wrote:
Rosewalker wrote:
Okay, for everyone who is complaining about ISBoxer breaking the EULA, please remember that CCP has given ISBoxer dispensation from parts of the EULA. This time, I am going to quote the entire section on Client Modification from the Third Party Policies. In this section, please remember that "the multiboxing application" refers to ISBoxer.

Third Pary Policies wrote:

Client modification

Client modification is strictly prohibited, as per our EULA:

6. CONDUCT

A. Specifically Restricted Conduct

2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.

3. You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.


As well as 9.C:

You may not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile, or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of the Software, or from any information accessible through the System (including, without limitation, data packets transmitted to and from the System over the Internet), or anything incorporated therein, or analyze, decipher, "sniff" or derive code (or attempt to do any of the foregoing) from any packet stream transmitted to or from the System, whether encrypted or not, or permit any third party to do any of the same, and you hereby expressly waive any legal rights you may have to do so. If the Software and/or the System contains license management technology, you may not circumvent or disable that technology.

We do not endorse or condone the use of any third party applications or other software that modifies the client or otherwise confers an unfair benefit to players. We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. For instance, the use of programs that provide in-game overlays (Mumble, Teamspeak) and the multiboxing application is not something we plan to actively police at this time. However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. Please use such third party applications or other software at your own risk.
So for anyone arguing that ISBoxer breaks the EULA on these grounds, CCP has considered the argument and found, "no harm, no foul". So please, if you want to argue against ISBoxer, please come up with other arguments. Personally, I think that CCP should just start designing and balancing the game with ISBoxer in mind.

Well, I think that just means the guy from earlier was right.. They don't care about it, but it is still against the EULA.
Quote:
We may, in our discretion, tolerate the use of applications or other software that simply enhance player enjoyment in a way that maintains fair gameplay. For instance, the use of programs that provide in-game overlays (Mumble, Teamspeak) and the multiboxing application is not something we plan to actively police at this time. However, if any third party application or other software is used to gain any unfair advantage, or for purposes beyond its intended use, or if the application or other software violates other parts of the EULA, we may fully enforce our rights to prohibit such use, including player bans. Please use such third party applications or other software at your own risk.
This makes me think that, while it's not allowed, CCP is currently fine with it being used but can police it if they want to.


Yes, but if you read that part, what is the actual reason it is considered possible harmful? Hint: it's not the ability to control multiple characters at the same time.

That clause is about overlays, which by definition are a form of picture-in-picture. What ISBoxer currently does is software level of picture mixing, hardware has existed for over 40 years to do this. It's a bit on the expensive side, but so were computer a while ago. Pop the software solution, hardware will replace it again, used hardware is getting cheaper and cheaper while TV's and monitors supporting multiple simultaneous inputs are becoming more popular.
Solecist Project
#123 - 2014-10-13 07:59:02 UTC
I think that CCP could market a widespread banwave as HTFU.

The highpoint of marketing.

WE BAN OUR PLAYERS IF THEY DON'T STOP WHINING!


Insane. It would attract people like mad,
just because it would be perceived as challenge.

And it would attract the other side too,
because they will believe they win.

Twist: SchadenFreude becomes a bannable offense.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Voxinian
#124 - 2014-10-13 08:03:05 UTC
I haven't followed the discussion closely, but I am against letting a program flying ships in sync. This is not playing EVE as intended, has nothing to do anymore with playing an MMO. EVE ships needs to be flown by players directly and not 'one click flies all ships in a fleet'. If it were up to me all players would only be allowed to have one active alt account (for scout/cyno) and thats it. I also wonder if CCP has an idea of how gamers that haven't played EVE yet percieve this way of playing. If I never would have played EVE and read about people using like 8 accounts to fly a fleet with a program to cause havok to solo players with one account then I might not even have bothered with EVE.... as it has nothing to do with game mechanics, but a 3rd party exploit to manipulate the game beyond the normal ingame mechanics.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#125 - 2014-10-13 08:07:53 UTC
Voxinian wrote:
I haven't followed the discussion closely, but I am against letting a program flying ships in sync. This is not playing EVE as intended, has nothing to do anymore with playing an MMO. EVE ships needs to be flown by players directly and not 'one click flies all ships in a fleet'. If it were up to me all players would only be allowed to have one active alt account (for scout/cyno) and thats it. I also wonder if CCP has an idea of how gamers that haven't played EVE yet percieve this way of playing. If I never would have played EVE and read about people using like 8 accounts to fly a fleet with a program to cause havok to solo players with one account then I might not even have bothered with EVE.... as it has nothing to do with game mechanics, but a 3rd party exploit to manipulate the game beyond the normal ingame mechanics.


So you posted in a thread reguirgitating the same opinion as everyone else who hasn't paid any attention to the discussion.

Please read the thread and use at least one post as an argumentative point so it'll stay on track.
Voxinian
#126 - 2014-10-13 08:09:57 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
The loudest part of the crowd against ISBoxer are the ones ...
... who can not deal with the fact that others are better than them.


The fairbears.
I coined a new term.


CCP ... ban these instead.


Thanks!


How does a lame program to' one flick flies all' make you better exactly? It makes you even worse then a carebear that is having fun with his/her one account mining belts silly. Hell, I respect the lone carebear miner more then someone that does not know how to normally play a game with other people anymore without using an external program to fly multi ships for him. If you want to fly in a fleet, join a player corp, thats why they exist.
Voxinian
#127 - 2014-10-13 08:32:19 UTC
Elsa Hayes wrote:
EvE online a massive alt player online game where you are told you are playing with thousands of other player when in reality you are just playing with the same couple of hundred guys and their thousands of alts.

Not sure if it is beneficial to a game when out of 30k logged in accounts less than 10k actually represent individual humans.

When a noob these days looks for a corp he can´t judge activity by numbers of accounts in corp, he can´t even judge activity by numbers of accounts logged in. There are literally hundreds of corps out there with 3-50 members that are only played by 1 to 10 actual humans with each having numerous alts.

Only just recently I saw something very stupid in local, a fleet of SteveX1 through SteveX18 (name does not exist , just an example) getting ready for a massive solo mining op...... If thats not sad what is?

It´s like Bobby and his 10 imaginary friends fantasizing about having a great social life.


Exactly my feeling about it and I also see the Stevex1 to Stevex20 more and more in local. EVE is not a true MMO when they allow this kind of 'playing'. People needing to use a dozen accounts take playing a game way to seriously or desperately trying to compensate for some other real life shortcommings (I can't look inside their heads).
Mag's
Azn Empire
#128 - 2014-10-13 08:41:58 UTC
Voxinian wrote:
People needing to use a dozen accounts take playing a game way to seriously or desperately trying to compensate for some other real life shortcommings (I can't look inside their heads).
Roll

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Solecist Project
#129 - 2014-10-13 09:11:27 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Voxinian wrote:
People needing to use a dozen accounts take playing a game way to seriously or desperately trying to compensate for some other real life shortcommings (I can't look inside their heads).
Roll

RollRoll

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#130 - 2014-10-13 09:12:28 UTC
Voxinian wrote:
Elsa Hayes wrote:
EvE online a massive alt player online game where you are told you are playing with thousands of other player when in reality you are just playing with the same couple of hundred guys and their thousands of alts.

Not sure if it is beneficial to a game when out of 30k logged in accounts less than 10k actually represent individual humans.

When a noob these days looks for a corp he can´t judge activity by numbers of accounts in corp, he can´t even judge activity by numbers of accounts logged in. There are literally hundreds of corps out there with 3-50 members that are only played by 1 to 10 actual humans with each having numerous alts.

Only just recently I saw something very stupid in local, a fleet of SteveX1 through SteveX18 (name does not exist , just an example) getting ready for a massive solo mining op...... If thats not sad what is?

It´s like Bobby and his 10 imaginary friends fantasizing about having a great social life.


Exactly my feeling about it and I also see the Stevex1 to Stevex20 more and more in local. EVE is not a true MMO when they allow this kind of 'playing'. People needing to use a dozen accounts take playing a game way to seriously or desperately trying to compensate for some other real life shortcommings (I can't look inside their heads).


And you'd be crying if the CFC made an OP to mine out all the ice in highsec with their alts aptly named iceminer1 to iceminer30000.

Face it you're just having a bout of sour grapes with isboxers. You also lose all forms of credibility the moment you attack someone about their real life over a VIDEO GAME.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Voxinian
#131 - 2014-10-13 09:16:05 UTC
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Voxinian wrote:
Elsa Hayes wrote:
EvE online a massive alt player online game where you are told you are playing with thousands of other player when in reality you are just playing with the same couple of hundred guys and their thousands of alts.

Not sure if it is beneficial to a game when out of 30k logged in accounts less than 10k actually represent individual humans.

When a noob these days looks for a corp he can´t judge activity by numbers of accounts in corp, he can´t even judge activity by numbers of accounts logged in. There are literally hundreds of corps out there with 3-50 members that are only played by 1 to 10 actual humans with each having numerous alts.

Only just recently I saw something very stupid in local, a fleet of SteveX1 through SteveX18 (name does not exist , just an example) getting ready for a massive solo mining op...... If thats not sad what is?

It´s like Bobby and his 10 imaginary friends fantasizing about having a great social life.


Exactly my feeling about it and I also see the Stevex1 to Stevex20 more and more in local. EVE is not a true MMO when they allow this kind of 'playing'. People needing to use a dozen accounts take playing a game way to seriously or desperately trying to compensate for some other real life shortcommings (I can't look inside their heads).


And you'd be crying if the CFC made an OP to mine out all the ice in highsec with their alts aptly named iceminer1 to iceminer30000.

Face it you're just having a bout of sour grapes with isboxers. You also lose all forms of credibility the moment you attack someone about their real life over a VIDEO GAME.

I am not sour, I define gaming and playing an MMO different then you. Playing a game beyond the designed game mechanics I call exploit. And sure you can make the exploit a game mechanic itself. You can even could call DDossing EVE gameplay with 3rd party softwarew then.
Solecist Project
#132 - 2014-10-13 09:38:47 UTC
Definitions are beyond "individualism".

People who rather make up their own definitions ...
... instead of sticking with what most people agree on ...
... usually aren't the best people to listen to or argue with.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Solecist Project
#133 - 2014-10-13 09:42:52 UTC
Why?

Oh that's easy.

People who ignore definitions and also ignore written down documents,
such as the EULA and ToS, usually are only about themselves.Actual
reality does not matter compared to the own beliefs and dismissing it
in favour of the own views is not just common, but the norm.

These people usually are ignorant about arguments that reflect actual reality
and are unaware that logical analysis always leads to a logical conclusion,
even though the information used may be wrong, biased or simply incomplete.


That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Mag's
Azn Empire
#134 - 2014-10-13 09:43:59 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Definitions are beyond "individualism".

People who rather make up their own definitions ...
... instead of sticking with what most people agree on ...
... usually aren't the best people to listen to or argue with.

They also should be kept away from rule making and the naming of exploits.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#135 - 2014-10-13 10:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Voxinian wrote:
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Voxinian wrote:
Elsa Hayes wrote:
EvE online a massive alt player online game where you are told you are playing with thousands of other player when in reality you are just playing with the same couple of hundred guys and their thousands of alts.

Not sure if it is beneficial to a game when out of 30k logged in accounts less than 10k actually represent individual humans.

When a noob these days looks for a corp he can´t judge activity by numbers of accounts in corp, he can´t even judge activity by numbers of accounts logged in. There are literally hundreds of corps out there with 3-50 members that are only played by 1 to 10 actual humans with each having numerous alts.

Only just recently I saw something very stupid in local, a fleet of SteveX1 through SteveX18 (name does not exist , just an example) getting ready for a massive solo mining op...... If thats not sad what is?

It´s like Bobby and his 10 imaginary friends fantasizing about having a great social life.


Exactly my feeling about it and I also see the Stevex1 to Stevex20 more and more in local. EVE is not a true MMO when they allow this kind of 'playing'. People needing to use a dozen accounts take playing a game way to seriously or desperately trying to compensate for some other real life shortcommings (I can't look inside their heads).


And you'd be crying if the CFC made an OP to mine out all the ice in highsec with their alts aptly named iceminer1 to iceminer30000.

Face it you're just having a bout of sour grapes with isboxers. You also lose all forms of credibility the moment you attack someone about their real life over a VIDEO GAME.

I am not sour, I define gaming and playing an MMO different then you. Playing a game beyond the designed game mechanics I call exploit. And sure you can make the exploit a game mechanic itself. You can even could call DDossing EVE gameplay with 3rd party softwarew then.


No, DDoS attacks are both illegal in most 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries and is also prohibited by the EULA, specifically 6.a.1.

If you believe something is an exploit, do not announce it here on the forums, raise a ticket in-game or at the account management page and wait for an official response.
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#136 - 2014-10-13 10:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Yang Aurilen
Voxinian wrote:
Yang Aurilen wrote:
Voxinian wrote:
Elsa Hayes wrote:
EvE online a massive alt player online game where you are told you are playing with thousands of other player when in reality you are just playing with the same couple of hundred guys and their thousands of alts.

Not sure if it is beneficial to a game when out of 30k logged in accounts less than 10k actually represent individual humans.

When a noob these days looks for a corp he can´t judge activity by numbers of accounts in corp, he can´t even judge activity by numbers of accounts logged in. There are literally hundreds of corps out there with 3-50 members that are only played by 1 to 10 actual humans with each having numerous alts.

Only just recently I saw something very stupid in local, a fleet of SteveX1 through SteveX18 (name does not exist , just an example) getting ready for a massive solo mining op...... If thats not sad what is?

It´s like Bobby and his 10 imaginary friends fantasizing about having a great social life.


Exactly my feeling about it and I also see the Stevex1 to Stevex20 more and more in local. EVE is not a true MMO when they allow this kind of 'playing'. People needing to use a dozen accounts take playing a game way to seriously or desperately trying to compensate for some other real life shortcommings (I can't look inside their heads).


And you'd be crying if the CFC made an OP to mine out all the ice in highsec with their alts aptly named iceminer1 to iceminer30000.

Face it you're just having a bout of sour grapes with isboxers. You also lose all forms of credibility the moment you attack someone about their real life over a VIDEO GAME.

I am not sour, I define gaming and playing an MMO different then you. Playing a game beyond the designed game mechanics I call exploit. And sure you can make the exploit a game mechanic itself. You can even could call DDossing EVE gameplay with 3rd party softwarew then.


You heard it here folks! ISBoxing is equivalent to DDoSing EVE! But at the end of the day the ISBoxer got what he wants and you didn't and are not using any of the ingame mechanics available to you to do something about it and instead whine on the forums because :effort: and :maybenofriendsbecauseisolo:.

Also unlike DDoSing any EVE player can actually deal with an ISBoxer ingame. See that clumped up 50 man mackinaw fleet getting all the ice? Get your friendSHIP* ships and warp in zero on them in smart bombing BS. See that guy ISBoxing a 20 man harpy fleet? Bring in more friendSHIP* ships than him and win.

DDoS on the other hand you can't do anything about it ingame other than die to the next dude that didn't disconnect.

*FriendSHIP quality and quantity may vary please do not use your friendSHIP ships against any major nullsec entity they have bigger friendSHIPs than you can ever hope to have.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Voxinian
#137 - 2014-10-13 10:53:44 UTC
You can bash all you want about my opinion, thats fine. Using 3rd party software to fake fleet in EVE is lame, has nothing to do with the actual game design, ingame mechanics and the pure natural gameplay. It degrades actual gaming thats where I stand, even if CCP gives a super duper thumbs up about this (mal)practice. The fact that you can use dozens accounts simultaneously is already lame beyond words and reduces the quality of the overal gaming experiece for the ones that do actually play the game normally. If you multi-account and have several clients open where you control the accounts manually is at least something, but letting a 3rd party progam do the click sync with a thumbs up from the devs is not good for gaming nor the future of gaming in general.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#138 - 2014-10-13 10:58:19 UTC
Voxinian wrote:
You can bash all you want about my opinion, thats fine. Using 3rd party software to fake fleet in EVE is lame, has nothing to do with the actual game design, ingame mechanics and the pure natural gameplay. It degrades actual gaming thats where I stand, even if CCP gives a super duper thumbs up about this (mal)practice. The fact that you can use dozens accounts simultaneously is already lame beyond words and reduces the quality of the overal gaming experiece for the ones that do actually play the game normally. If you multi-account and have several clients open where you control the accounts manually is at least something, but letting a 3rd party progam do the click sync with a thumbs up from the devs is not good for gaming nor the future of gaming in general.


I guess your bio is equal to your views on this issue: "Risistance is futile".
Nidal Fervor
Doomheim
#139 - 2014-10-13 11:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nidal Fervor
Voxinian wrote:
I haven't followed the discussion closely, but I am against letting a program flying ships in sync. This is not playing EVE as intended, has nothing to do anymore with playing an MMO. EVE ships needs to be flown by players directly and not 'one click flies all ships in a fleet'. If it were up to me all players would only be allowed to have one active alt account (for scout/cyno) and thats it. I also wonder if CCP has an idea of how gamers that haven't played EVE yet percieve this way of playing. If I never would have played EVE and read about people using like 8 accounts to fly a fleet with a program to cause havok to solo players with one account then I might not even have bothered with EVE.... as it has nothing to do with game mechanics, but a 3rd party exploit to manipulate the game beyond the normal ingame mechanics.


This.

Many potential customers will see the problem EVE has with those who go to extremes of playing with with 20 or 30 accounts and just not bother to even try the game because of it.

There is also likely those who try the game and after seeing this kind of behaviour first hand decide to quit.

Bottom line. While isboxer fleets get more alt accounts made by those obsessive enough to play that way, it also drives paying customers away from the game. And the average isboxer is making enough isk to subscribe in market purchased plex, so all you end up with is less paying customers and more plexing isboxer alt fleets (in turn driving away more paying customers).

The longer this is allowed to go on for, the more damage it does. If EVE just ends up known for its massive isboxer fleets everywhere, do you think people will still want to play this game? (other than the isboxer fleets). This is already happening in some areas. Gallente space for example, some of the ice field systems have 5 or 6 players with 20-30 man mining fleets each, and these 5 players account for most of the players in this area.
Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#140 - 2014-10-13 11:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsa Hayes