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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

First post First post First post
Author
nospet
#1101 - 2014-10-13 00:34:15 UTC
Will pods get full fatigue using a jump bridge or jump portal?
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#1102 - 2014-10-13 02:42:45 UTC
Nice to see you abandon the main threadnaught maybe it was hitting you a bit hard, Oh well not to fear I have found my target again.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

We've collected, parsed and thoroughly discussed your *extensive* feedback on the proposed long-distance travel changes, both in the official thread and elsewhere, consulted with the CSM, and made adjustments accordingly.


Question then:
Is a carrier a combat ship or a logistical ship because the module that is made for carriers points it towards logistics and as such a logistical ship should have better range than the other capitals.

CCP Greyscale wrote:

this is just minimum changes necessary to get these changes on TQ so we can see how they play out in practice and establish how comparatively valuable their different bonuses are.


Will you get any data from un subscribed and dormant capital pilots ?

So if something dies off in practice that has become a staple for small groups you will alter it ?

I don’t see how bashing a carrier ( the biggest logistical platform in the game ) is helpful to small groups of people no matter what you do to black ops, rorqs or JF’s.


CCP Greyscale wrote:

Because we don't want to lock them in systems while their cooldown is ticking down; because not doing so plays havoc with capital accessibility of some areas of space; and because we'd much rather have capitals stuck in gate bubbles than docked up and unused.


Wait do we have a bubble within game that we can anchor on ( and by on I mean directly on ) gates, No I didn’t think so either they are just bubbles.

You would rather have capitals in space then ?
I don’t see capital ships being used at all by anyone informed about these changes they all un subscribed in the last thread or did you gloss over that.

I’m still struggling to see this change as anything good, You ask for feedback then because there was so much ( or just so much rage ) you hide away in this thread redefining the word “logistics” to just mean hauling crap loads of crap.

Logistics is not just done with freighters, Jump freighters or industrial ships it’s done with triage carriers and remote reps A type of gameplay I see dying more and more.
Now the only logistic ship for anyone to care about is a guardian it’s about the same right triage carrier and guardian.
Yet your plan is to still pidgin hole the entire capital range as “combat focused” because they project power over distance, The solution is simple take away the horde’O drones carriers can launch and restrict them to fighters only.

I’ve played this game plenty and given above and beyond to it and its players weather it be in restless nights trying to show dev’s the errors of their ways ( including that aborted feature / expansion encarna ) or fighting 100+ drake gangs with 10 people ( emergent gameplay ) and winning, All of them are coming to an end including my subs.

To put capitals into todays machine of war perspective:

The titan and super carrier is the tank with their fighter bombers and DD’s being weapons of immense destruction
The dreadnaught is infantry
The carrier is the medic

Look i summed up capitals for you, Too bad I’m not going to be here STO just got my money I’m just here to see what sort of mess you make of things so I can rub your noses in it, Throw you outside and leave you there like the decrepit dog eve has become.

You want feedback sure have it but don’t ask for it then totally ignore valid points then start a new thread so you can gloss over all the reply’s.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1103 - 2014-10-13 02:48:32 UTC
smokeydapot wrote:
*snip*

I do not think those words mean what you think they mean.
Also, can I have your stuff, especially your capitals & characters who can fly them.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1104 - 2014-10-13 03:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
smokeydapot wrote:
*snip*

I do not think those words mean what you think they mean.
Also, can I have your stuff, especially your capitals & characters who can fly them.

Send 10 mil ISK to my account if you want my stuff. Maybe a decade later CCP might see the error of their ways and I might re-subscribe and come back so I will want to have something waiting for me just in case. Send 10 mil to smokey too if you want his stuff too. We will thank you for your donations. lol. So many idiots in Eve.

To CCP, I stayed with Eve to train my carrier skills to 5 and intended to stay forever but since carriers have remained at a severe disadvantage, have never been fixed, and now are getting nerfed the crap out of them, now I ready to move on. Thanks for giving me the motivation to let go of Eve.

PS: If you want to see capitals in space, instead of dreaming about carriers stuck in bubbles at gates (which will never happen unless they are in massive cap and subcap fleet ops), you should be dreaming about removing the reasons that carriers are not carelessly exposed to the instant death of DDs, the insane dps and hp of the supercarriers, or the insignificance of the triage module for massive capital battle logistics work. Give carriers reasons to go out in space. If they still don't go out, then either the reasons weren't good enough or the risk remains far too great. They still are multi-BILLION ISK ships which cannot be even remotely compared to the risk of just losing a few million ISK interceptor.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1105 - 2014-10-13 03:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Polo Marco
smokeydapot wrote:
Too bad I’m not going to be here STO just got my money.


Star Trek Online is a Perfect Word Entertainment property. Like all the rest of their titles, it advertises Free To Play but in reality is Pay To Win. The lockbox/key system is a black hole for your money, and often you don't get what you want anyway. PWE forums are moderated by ban - happy lackeys who won't let you play for them long anyway if you keep venting there like you have vented here.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#1106 - 2014-10-13 06:09:21 UTC
ok while everyone else is arguing ill post feedback.

1. Black ops 8 ly is good In fact they can reach in slightly deeper to a few places that is going to be great for some hit and run.
2. Carriers are still the poor mans jump freighter, give them 7 lys but increase fuel consumption by another 25%
3. Half the rorquals drone bonus and increase the jump range by 50%. It can go farther but still have some sort of ability to defend itself.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1107 - 2014-10-13 06:15:13 UTC
smokeydapot wrote:
Yet your plan is to still pidgin hole the entire capital range as “combat focused” because they project power over distance, The solution is simple take away the horde’O drones carriers can launch and restrict them to fighters only.

That damn rorqural drone bonus

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1108 - 2014-10-13 06:17:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
ok while everyone else is arguing ill post feedback.

1. Black ops 8 ly is good In fact they can reach in slightly deeper to a few places that is going to be great for some hit and run.
2. Carriers are still the poor mans jump freighter, give them 7 lys but increase fuel consumption by another 25%
3. Half the rorquals drone bonus and increase the jump range by 50%. It can go farther but still have some sort of ability to defend itself.

Let's argue about carriers and rorqurals.

Wait a sec, haha more fuel consumption for carriers, some need to stimulate the isotope market again, like last time it was increased?

No wait, actually... since titans can take gates, their ability to doomsday on a tank of fuel is greater. Perhaps to prevent excessive doomsdaying (and to make friends have to bring them fuel on the field, oooh combat refuelling) we should increase DD costs by 50%, no 100%

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Meyrr Odebe
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1109 - 2014-10-13 06:33:25 UTC
Eh... Still no reason to get crazy about capitals in the game anymore. Just making a sub-cap fleet game now. Might be fun or until people start going broke because of losses. But hey they have pushing PLEX purchase for a while now. Bummer, wish they would just fix the broken null sov mechanics... one of the cool things about the game was how it mirrored how things would actually unfold. A synthetic alteration like this, IMHO ,feels like so many other changes that seriously affected the affected MMO's future. But hey,,. well see...
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1110 - 2014-10-13 07:02:01 UTC
Meyrr Odebe wrote:
Eh... Still no reason to get crazy about capitals in the game anymore. Just making a sub-cap fleet game now. Might be fun or until people start going broke because of losses. But hey they have pushing PLEX purchase for a while now. Bummer, wish they would just fix the broken null sov mechanics... one of the cool things about the game was how it mirrored how things would actually unfold. A synthetic alteration like this, IMHO ,feels like so many other changes that seriously affected the affected MMO's future. But hey,,. well see...

It was bound to happen when certain groups starting using carriers to kill everything in a post-isk-on-field world.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Miyammato Musashi
Freeport Exploration
Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
#1111 - 2014-10-13 07:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Miyammato Musashi
CCP Greyscale wrote:

We would like nullsec to transition to a new status quo over time in as orderly a manner as possible, and maintaining as much of its current population as possible (or increasing it, obviously), while still actually achieving the new status quo. We're of the opinion that if we push the 5LY range through now, we'll lose a lot of nullsec players while they try to reach a new equilibrium, and it's possible that it would significantly reduce the carrying capacity of nullsec overall, which is not an outcome we'd be happy with.


Hmmm... ah... well it seems to me like not too terribly much is changing now. I can't imagine this is going to have a terribly huge effect on logistics or hotdrops in null now. A lot of pods are writing about very case specific things in this thread. I guess I'm just a little fuzzy on what the broader thinking is here.

Is it something like "we don't want to scare the existing players out of null who are freaking out that they may actually have to find a new way to play to accommodate these changes, but at the same time things definitely need to change. At 10LY our objective is not achieved. There aren't any 'islands' of space that are particularly difficult to get to, and logistics people just need to think about timing a little more. Little changes... but once pods get used to thinking about their caps with jump fatigue as a factor, we can throttle back, and throttle back, and throttle back."

I guess it just seems like to me nothing big is really going to change here (@10LY). 10LY is a pretty decent range. I can still get to Fountain in 2 jumps and never leave docking range of an NPC station. There's not much incentive to switch from Jump freighters to anything else. Yah you might want to wait a bit more before going to or coming from empire... but that's about it. I hear your goals. I like your goals. I just wonder... if you are serious about achieving them. 5LY sounded perfect. I saw an entirely new EvE world map opening up before my eyes. Now it looks... almost identical to how it was before (tactically).


Nevermind. I didn't see that only applies to Jump Freighters. We're still in business... though I do think JF ranges should be in line with other caps.

I am a meat popsicle. 

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1112 - 2014-10-13 07:26:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Polo Marco
One of the truly boring fixtures of this game is travel time. Whether for fedex missions, op staging, immigration, or market access. Nothing I have heard here, put for by ANYONE - trolls, Greyscale, pros, or cons - has shown me anywhere close to a good enough side effect of this radical mobility nerf to justify the aggravation and wasted player time its going to cause.

Sov wars are already unpopular due to boredom and the amount of free playing time those who participate must sacrifice. I don't see this doing anything more than setting the status quo in concrete by costing those who want to grow more precious playing time. Once the JF nerf was lowered just slightly below train wreck economic status, and the megacorps managed to smother their logistics carriers, their only comments have been rather smugly satisfied. Curious that, as this nerf anvil is designed to hit them where it hurts the most.

Meanwhile, it just makes it harder and harder for your average small entity to either get to null or grow once they arrive. It's too late to take back the year or so training per pilot it cost a subscriber to be jump capable. How do you justify the HUGE cost of this 'theorycraft' to the common player?

Are you willing to allow players to 'trade in' these high dollar skills for a skill point refund? Are you going to build a Red Frog like logistical service in game to mitigate the huge increase in time to move ANYTHING over long distances?

I'll repeat what I said earlier. The ineffectiveness of this change will be DWARFED by it's collateral damage.

Go back to the drawing board. It's not too late to abort this abortion.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1113 - 2014-10-13 07:40:51 UTC
Miyammato Musashi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We would like nullsec to transition to a new status quo over time in as orderly a manner as possible, and maintaining as much of its current population as possible (or increasing it, obviously), while still actually achieving the new status quo. We're of the opinion that if we push the 5LY range through now, we'll lose a lot of nullsec players while they try to reach a new equilibrium, and it's possible that it would significantly reduce the carrying capacity of nullsec overall, which is not an outcome we'd be happy with.

Is it something like "we don't want to scare the existing players out of null who are freaking out that they may actually have to find a new way to play to accommodate these changes, but at the same time things definitely need to change. At 10LY our objective is not achieved. There aren't any 'islands' of space that are particularly difficult to get to, and logistics people just need to think about timing a little more. Little changes... but once pods get used to thinking about their caps with jump fatigue as a factor, we can throttle back, and throttle back, and throttle back."

More like (just) throttle nullsec But don't pay me any mind, just another goon crying or something.

(He's basically bragging that they pulled it off. Op success)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1114 - 2014-10-13 07:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Polo Marco wrote:
Sov wars are already unpopular due to boredom and the amount of free playing time those who participate must sacrifice. I don't see this doing anything more than setting the status quo in concrete by costing those who want to grow more precious playing time. Once the JF nerf was lowered just slightly below train wreck economic status, and the megacorps managed to smother their logistics carriers, their only comments have been rather smugly satisfied. Curious that, as this nerf anvil is designed to hit them where it hurts the most.

Yep, confirming I'm totally smugly satisfied. (Disclaimer: I don't own a JF, but obviously rely on people who do)

Polo Marco wrote:
How do you justify the HUGE cost of this 'theorycraft' to the common player?

Why, do they have to? All that is necessary is to prevent mass unsubs (a few is fine of course)


Polo Marco wrote:
Are you going to build a Red Frog like logistical service in game to mitigate the huge increase in time to move ANYTHING over long distances?

Suspect it will be to fatiguing for them to run.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Bohnsen
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#1115 - 2014-10-13 08:29:50 UTC
Hmm This **** up the game in so many ways... can we get all the millions of skill points in caps back there is no use form them anymore who is going to pay a **** load of isk for super that "can't" be used...
i love to fly carriers and have fun but thing whit this changes i might have to find another game
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1116 - 2014-10-13 08:51:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Bohnsen wrote:
Hmm This **** up the game in so many ways... can we get all the millions of skill points in caps back there is no use form them anymore who is going to pay a **** load of isk for super that "can't" be used...
i love to fly carriers and have fun but thing whit this changes i might have to find another game

But you can take gates with the subcaps you love

And you can rep them, and the enemy can't really kill you, neut you out, jam you, damp you and the like... it's basically a SuperGuardian


If you're a not-Aeon, you could take gates with the carriers when it's time to rep pos!! Exciting. Hm, but I'm stuck in an Aeon

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1117 - 2014-10-13 09:00:11 UTC
Bohnsen wrote:
Hmm This **** up the game in so many ways... can we get all the millions of skill points in caps back there is no use form them anymore who is going to pay a **** load of isk for super that "can't" be used...
i love to fly carriers and have fun but thing whit this changes i might have to find another game


If you were refunded those skillpoints, would you invest them into better posting?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1118 - 2014-10-13 09:34:01 UTC
Meyrr Odebe wrote:
Eh... Still no reason to get crazy about capitals in the game anymore. Just making a sub-cap fleet game now. Might be fun or until people start going broke because of losses. But hey they have pushing PLEX purchase for a while now. Bummer, wish they would just fix the broken null sov mechanics... one of the cool things about the game was how it mirrored how things would actually unfold. A synthetic alteration like this, IMHO ,feels like so many other changes that seriously affected the affected MMO's future. But hey,,. well see...



Amazing how many people fail to see that being able to cross gates is a MASSIVE boost to capitals. They will be Even MORE powerful now on the tactical level, they are just less strategically immediate. That means they can apply even more power than before with more combat options, but they cannot do it in the blink of an eye from the other side of the map.

The only real problem I see with the changes will be titans crossing gates and screwing up any camps or fleets at other side by sheer mega bumping.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1119 - 2014-10-13 09:46:58 UTC
smokeydapot wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Because we don't want to lock them in systems while their cooldown is ticking down; because not doing so plays havoc with capital accessibility of some areas of space; and because we'd much rather have capitals stuck in gate bubbles than docked up and unused.


Wait do we have a bubble within game that we can anchor on ( and by on I mean directly on ) gates, No I didn’t think so either they are just bubbles.

You would rather have capitals in space then ?
I don’t see capital ships being used at all by anyone informed about these changes they all un subscribed in the last thread or did you gloss over that.

Yeah, no, the unsubbing masses is most likely nothing but hot air and bluster, and I'm sure you know that (or, you should).

smokeydapot wrote:
I’m still struggling to see this change as anything good, You ask for feedback then because there was so much ( or just so much rage ) you hide away in this thread redefining the word “logistics” to just mean hauling crap loads of crap.

The good part of it is that the deployment of caps become more strategic. I personally would've preferred sov changes to happen before the capital changes, but I'll live with sov being done afterwards, and I love the fact CCP actually have the balls to make changes of this nature AND remove the restriction against taking gates. It gives me hope they'll actually do the right thing for the sov system as well.

smokeydapot wrote:
Logistics is not just done with freighters, Jump freighters or industrial ships it’s done with triage carriers and remote reps A type of gameplay I see dying more and more.

Completely different type of logistics, and you can't come here and try to pretend that carriers aren't "combat focused" in their application.

smokeydapot wrote:
Yet your plan is to still pidgin hole the entire capital range as “combat focused” because they project power over distance, The solution is simple take away the horde’O drones carriers can launch and restrict them to fighters only.

I've said this multiple times on f.ex kugu (while it was still alive) as a quick and easy solution to the problem of neverending sentries which just exacerbated the problem of supercaps online (another alternative was giving carriers one drone and one fighter-bay, so carriers had, say, 3 flights of sentry drones).

That only turned into Grath et al yelling bloody murder all the way until Kugu was shut down.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1120 - 2014-10-13 09:53:07 UTC
I don't really get why carriers need to have drones or fighters, except duh they're called carriers. RR and triage is enough of a thing for a ship to do, it doesn't need to be a solopwnmobile long range teleporting gank hauler as well.