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How does targeting someone prevent cloak?

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#21 - 2014-10-11 23:40:50 UTC
Hades Dark wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Hades Dark wrote:
A targeting system pinpoints a mass using visual, radar, sonar. It no way sends anything that disturbs any equipment


[Citation Needed]

In other words, from what source are you basing your idea that targeting works like that in EVE.

Well when this game bases its stuff off earth physics meaning mass and speed etc. One could assume targeting would fall into that category to correct?


So you say Earth physics says that spaceships have maximum speeds, go about as fast as a Cessna, turn like they're going through corn syrup, and stop when they turn their engines off?

Which Earth are you from?

And no, you cannot assume that things in EVE work the same as they do in the real world just because some of the names of things are the same.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Nevil Oscillator
#22 - 2014-10-12 01:55:28 UTC
From what I can gather, this is a question about the rational explanation. So..

2 science fiction pieces of equipment - Targeting System - Cloaking Device

TS = Something connected with radar and unknown variants of a similar thing

CD = Limited stability, stops to function when another ship is within close proximity.

Sounds consistent enough to me.
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#23 - 2014-10-12 02:16:08 UTC
Milan Nantucket wrote:
Hades Dark wrote:
Milan Nantucket wrote:
Hades Dark wrote:
So why and how does targeting someone prevent cloak? Really I do not understand this concept at all. A targeting system pinpoints a mass using visual, radar, sonar. It no way sends anything that disturbs any equipment but yet when your targeted in EVE you can't use cloak due to what?
Also I should be able to cloak regardless if there is someone tracking me or not because unless something is preventing me from using that module then really how can they?

Well the theory is when a tracking computer get a lock it maintains the lock with a wave of energy... sort of like a radio wave. The wave is strong when the lock is made due to it being focused on that one target.... well the side effect is it disrupts the cloaking mechanism.

Cloaking isnt magical invisible... its a field that reflects the energy on one side to its counter side. Light is energy, so to the eye it is invisible. It cant handle the waves made from targetting computers and hence cant cloak... simple science really.

Once again targeting not Locked on.

Also how do visual and sonar systems work them? HMM. You do not need to send a signal to receive one and lock on to it. Look at submarines.

I looked for a sonar module and didnt see one. This is Jovian Science so if you want to use the less technologically advanced science and theories then find a way through the eden gate and go back to earth where submarines exist.


That would be pretty cool.
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#24 - 2014-10-12 03:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: HeXxploiT
The cloaking device itself works by taking a "snapshot" if you will of incoming radiation from all sides of the ship and generates its own matrix that is meant to fool observers watching on certain frequencies. The cloaking device will not engage until it has a successful snapshot of all surrounding radiation and can therefor reproduce said matrix.

A targeting system is a powerful electromagnetic beam that has the secondary effect of overwhelming or confusing the cloaking device with an excessive amount of radiation such that the the cloak cannot engage as it is not able to reproduce the beam generated by the targeting system.
Nevil Oscillator
#25 - 2014-10-12 03:27:41 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:
The cloaking device itself works by taking a "snapshot" if you will of incoming radiation from all sides of the ship and generates its own matrix that is meant to fool observers watching on certain frequencies. The cloaking device will not engage until it has a successful snapshot of all surrounding radiation and can therefor reproduce said matrix.

A targeting system is a powerful electromagnetic beam that has the secondary effect of overwhelming or confusing the cloaking device with an excessive amount of radiation such that the the cloak cannot engage as it is not able to reproduce the beam generated by the targeting system.


I'm definitely coming to you when I need reminding why acceleration gates exist.
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-10-12 03:40:47 UTC  |  Edited by: HeXxploiT
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
HeXxploiT wrote:
The cloaking device itself works by taking a "snapshot" if you will of incoming radiation from all sides of the ship and generates its own matrix that is meant to fool observers watching on certain frequencies. The cloaking device will not engage until it has a successful snapshot of all surrounding radiation and can therefor reproduce said matrix.

A targeting system is a powerful electromagnetic beam that has the secondary effect of overwhelming or confusing the cloaking device with an excessive amount of radiation such that the the cloak cannot engage as it is not able to reproduce the beam generated by the targeting system.


I'm definitely coming to you when I need reminding why acceleration gates exist.


That's easy. Hitting anything in space nomatter how small will naturally cause damage to any spaceship traveling at faster then lightspeed. Acceleration gates are used in parts of space where there is excessive matter that interferes with spaceship travel. The acceleration gate fires a Consistent and powerful stream of antimatter particles directly in the path of the ship in order to obliterate all matter thereby making the trip safe to what would normally be matter congested locations.
Nevil Oscillator
#27 - 2014-10-12 03:54:46 UTC
HeXxploiT wrote:


That's easy. Hitting anything in space nomatter how small will naturally cause damage to any spaceship traveling at faster then lightspeed. Acceleration gates are used in parts of space where there is excessive matter that interferes with spaceship travel. The acceleration gate fires a Consistent and powerful stream of antimatter particles directly in the path of the ship in order to obliterate all matter thereby making the trip safe to what would normally be matter congested locations.


That explains how I warped right through the middle of a planet, I hope they have enough filler to patch up the hole I made.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#28 - 2014-10-12 09:32:50 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Let's start with the earth physics explanation of a cloak on a spaceship in the first place.

I really wish I could find the blog/article/whatever that discusses this, but someone basically showed using thermodynamics that it's really not possible to cloak spaceships in reality, regardless of advancements in technology.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#29 - 2014-10-12 09:37:14 UTC
Unless of course there's some magical device that we somehow invent that allows us to circumvent the laws of thermodynamics altogether, but cloaking would frankly be one of the less exciting implications of such technology.
Nevil Oscillator
#30 - 2014-10-12 19:04:06 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:

I really wish I could find the blog/article/whatever that discusses this, but someone basically showed using thermodynamics that it's really not possible to cloak spaceships in reality, regardless of advancements in technology.



Objects are inherently only visible to sensors that can detect them, so without knowing what the sensors are, it is fairly difficult to answer whether or not it is possible to block them or omit a signal that replicates the object not being there. That's as much as I've thought about it.
Lady Areola Fappington
#31 - 2014-10-12 22:35:48 UTC
Hey, a lore question, I like lore stuff, lets see if I can help!

To start, lets assume that ship sensors behave the same way your in-built human sensors work...your eyes, ears, etc. Normally you aren't fully aware of all of your surroundings on a conscious level. You brain has a general idea of where things are outside of what you are focusing on, but you aren't really paying attention. It's how the "gorilla during basketball" trick works (seriously, google it, it's really cool).

So, lets say ship sensors work the same way. There's so much information coming in, your ship isn't really paying direct attention to anything you aren't focused on. That's how the cloak works, since nobody else is "looking" at you, it's easy to just drop off the awareness grid. Now, when a ship starts targeting you, that's different. It's bringing all of it's "attention" towards you as a target, so there's no way to just "disappear" from the awareness sphere. Metaphorically, the ship is staring at the spot you're sitting in, turning it's head to listen for you, that stuff. The cloaking ship is able to detect that increase in directed "attention", so rather than waste time and energy powering up a cloak, it just tells you "I can't do that".

There, lore done, yay!

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Nevil Oscillator
#32 - 2014-10-12 22:49:14 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:


Now, when a ship starts targeting you, that's different. It's bringing all of it's "attention" towards you as a target, so there's no way to just "disappear" from the awareness sphere. Metaphorically, the ship is staring at the spot you're sitting in, turning it's head to listen for you, that stuff. The cloaking ship is able to detect that increase in directed "attention", so rather than waste time and energy powering up a cloak, it just tells you "I can't do that".

There, lore done, yay!


Possibly but that would probably only effect the ship that is targeting you, why would you be visible to everyone ?

Too much lore can prevent you from correcting mistakes..


Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-10-12 23:06:44 UTC
It's a question of balance from my point of view.
Not just game balance, that should be perfectly obvious. I'm referring to my obnoxious autism being balanced by my extreme laziness, it really is a ton of work to reconcile sci-fi with a grinding need for detail and veracity.
Some stuff you just let go because *effort* ughhh.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-10-12 23:20:44 UTC
Hades Dark wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Hades Dark wrote:
A targeting system pinpoints a mass using visual, radar, sonar. It no way sends anything that disturbs any equipment


[Citation Needed]

In other words, from what source are you basing your idea that targeting works like that in EVE.

Well when this game bases its stuff off earth physics meaning mass and speed etc. One could assume targeting would fall into that category to correct?


Well we don't have cloaking in reality and even the pseudo invisible effect we see in prototypes do not block the rest of the spectrum. Thermal, UV and such can still readily detect the "invisible" object/individual and you can still see them with a cloak active.

If you lock an F 35 fighter - it's 5th gen stealth capabilities are WORTHLESS. All that advanced technology doesn't help once a lock is obtained - it's back to flares, chaff and the like for countermeasures. The pilot also tends to know when he's locked by an enemy.

Cloaking in the game blocks most everything but to do so...

Mechanics wise it's a balancing gig.

Technology wise - it's an unknown how locking technologies work exactly in the game when each race has a different type of sensor yet cloaking blocks all types of sensor effects - including visual spectrum.

So a lock blocking a cloak may be via an innate ability or an active application built into the process. It quite readily could directly incorporate anti-cloaking effects via pulsing or what not - Or it might be a side effect of the lock-on process.

Being as anyone within 2k of the cloaked ship will prevent and deactivate the cloak, the fact a type of lock-on "beam" is used could readily prevent a cloak field from forming.

It's an unknown and lore wise could be explained in any way CCP likes.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#35 - 2014-10-12 23:30:47 UTC
Hades Dark wrote:
So why and how does targeting someone prevent cloak? Really I do not understand this concept at all. A targeting system pinpoints a mass using visual, radar, sonar. It no way sends anything that disturbs any equipment but yet when your targeted in EVE you can't use cloak due to what?
Also I should be able to cloak regardless if there is someone tracking me or not because unless something is preventing me from using that module then really how can they?


If you lock something, your computer already knows exactly where that ship is and that ship engaging it's cloak can fool the targeting mechanisms anymore.

If the cloak gets up before you can target someone, then your ship's computers get confused to where exactly that ship is and you won't get a lock.

Done and done. Cool
Grendaran
Celestial Tomb
#36 - 2014-10-13 00:06:04 UTC

I drove down to the local space ship dealer where I live, and asked the question about cloaking and targeting for real, they just laughed at me, Grrrrrr
Nevil Oscillator
#37 - 2014-10-13 00:26:18 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:


If you lock something, your computer already knows exactly where that ship is and that ship engaging it's cloak can fool the targeting mechanisms anymore.

If the cloak gets up before you can target someone, then your ship's computers get confused to where exactly that ship is and you won't get a lock.

Done and done. Cool


It doesn't work like that because a cloak affects all ships that could normally see it, not just the one targeting it. The targeting system does therefore literally cause the cloaking device to fail as opposed to see through it.
Lady Areola Fappington
#38 - 2014-10-13 01:33:01 UTC
Nevil Oscillator wrote:


It doesn't work like that because a cloak affects all ships that could normally see it, not just the one targeting it. The targeting system does therefore literally cause the cloaking device to fail as opposed to see through it.



Slight change then. During the process of locking, the target in question gets "lit up" by the targeting vessel. The illumination starts at the beginning of the lock sequence, it just takes the locking ships computer time to narrow down specifically what is being seen.

Analogy, it's easy to hide in a dark room by throwing on a black trenchcoat (cloak). You can't hide at all in that dark room, if someone is shining a flashlight on you (being locked).

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2014-10-13 02:34:58 UTC
Because game mechanic. Not everything has a lore background.

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Nevil Oscillator
#40 - 2014-10-13 02:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevil Oscillator
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:




Slight change then. During the process of locking, the target in question gets "lit up" by the targeting vessel. The illumination starts at the beginning of the lock sequence, it just takes the locking ships computer time to narrow down specifically what is being seen.
.


Which is much the same thing as causing it to fail. Can't think of any problem with that, ship unlocks, then you can cloak again. Damn I should actually try using a cloak for something, then I might be better at this, it's been sat in my hanger for 3 months.
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