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CSM, pressure CCP to ban IsBoxer.

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#261 - 2014-10-12 07:32:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Darkblad wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Darkblad wrote:
Thanks for that. I'll quote the relevant part that directly adresses input mirroring:
GM Lelouch wrote:
programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands;
My bad that I took a GM statement, that later got confirmed as official stance of CCP Customer Support as fact.
Yes I looked at the GM you quoted and saw your error.

Plus I do not know what has been written, only what you suggest. Seeing as many cannot even read the EULA correctly and misquote that often in this regard, I'll stick to the English versions posted by respected members.

Also I think you'll find GM Lelouch is the lead GM. Blink
I do.

And for myself, I'll take this as an example of how much I should believe statements made by the GM Team in general, GM Karidor especially (I was't that previously aware of Mallak's examples).
Oh I agree, the majority of GMs should be taken with a pinch of salt. As long as you enjoy the game and don't break the rules, you never have to interact with them.

You say you do, that's fine. But even English speaking people misquote the EULA to try and prove a point in this regard. Either that or they read only what they want to read, skipping the relevant parts.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#262 - 2014-10-12 20:42:34 UTC
Mag's wrote:
... tell how you think they pay for their accounts with ISK and how that doesn't contribute. I would sure like to know.


unlike subs, plexes do not contribute to CCP bottom line today, like monthly subs do.


Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Mag's
Azn Empire
#263 - 2014-10-12 21:07:16 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Mag's wrote:
... tell how you think they pay for their accounts with ISK and how that doesn't contribute. I would sure like to know.


unlike subs, plexes do not contribute to CCP bottom line today, like monthly subs do.


You're joking right? Just how do you think a plex is created?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Solecist Project
#264 - 2014-10-12 21:45:36 UTC
The loudest part of the crowd against ISBoxer are the ones ...
... who can not deal with the fact that others are better than them.


CCP ... ban these instead.


Thanks!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#265 - 2014-10-13 00:17:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Saisin
Mag's wrote:
Saisin wrote:
Mag's wrote:
... tell how you think they pay for their accounts with ISK and how that doesn't contribute. I would sure like to know.


unlike subs, plexes do not contribute to CCP bottom line today, like monthly subs do.


You're joking right? Just how do you think a plex is created?


Of course it has been bought, at some point, possibly even this month (but this not a certainty) with real money, and even at a higher rate when used for 30 days of time than a subscription.

but as any in-game commodities, there are PLEXes in game that have been bought long ago and stocked. these PLEX do not provide income right now to CCP, albeit they certainly have provided income before. Still CCP has to pay their monthly expenses every single month, going forward, no matter what for the game to continue to exist.

So it all depends on how CCP manages over the long term the income from their PLEXes, but this is why PLEXes are fundamentally different from subscription income.

Using isboxing to make enough ISK to buy enough PLEXes to get characters' game time is bad for everybody else.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#266 - 2014-10-13 01:35:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Plex sit on CCPs books as deferred income, until they're consumed or destroyed.


It's money they can't do anything with, until the plex no longer exists. The moment a plex is consumed, the money is freed up for use.


(As for the original point in the topic, it's something I can't talk about.)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Mag's
Azn Empire
#267 - 2014-10-13 08:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Saisin wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Saisin wrote:
Mag's wrote:
... tell how you think they pay for their accounts with ISK and how that doesn't contribute. I would sure like to know.


unlike subs, plexes do not contribute to CCP bottom line today, like monthly subs do.


You're joking right? Just how do you think a plex is created?


Of course it has been bought, at some point, possibly even this month (but this not a certainty) with real money, and even at a higher rate when used for 30 days of time than a subscription.

but as any in-game commodities, there are PLEXes in game that have been bought long ago and stocked. these PLEX do not provide income right now to CCP, albeit they certainly have provided income before. Still CCP has to pay their monthly expenses every single month, going forward, no matter what for the game to continue to exist.

So it all depends on how CCP manages over the long term the income from their PLEXes, but this is why PLEXes are fundamentally different from subscription income.

Using isboxing to make enough ISK to buy enough PLEXes to get characters' game time is bad for everybody else.
Well Steve has just told you how and when CCP get the income from a plex. But even so, you really are stretching reality if you think they do not contribute, even if it was as you suggested and paid some time ago.

Your argument was that they do not contribute. That's blatantly false and not even founded in reality. Plex users pay more than I do and it seems CCP get the money as and when they use them.

The joke is, I pay yearly. So CCP do actually get my money a full year before the end of my sub. So using your logic, I also do not contribute. I had at some point in my sub, changed my credit card. Doing so took another payment and my days left were almost 600. I guess I really wasn't contributing at all then. Roll

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#268 - 2014-10-13 11:38:40 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Well Steve has just told you how and when CCP get the income from a plex. But even so, you really are stretching reality if you think they do not contribute, even if it was as you suggested and paid some time ago.

Your argument was that they do not contribute. That's blatantly false and not even founded in reality. Plex users pay more than I do and it seems CCP get the money as and when they use them.

The joke is, I pay yearly. So CCP do actually get my money a full year before the end of my sub. So using your logic, I also do not contribute. I had at some point in my sub, changed my credit card. Doing so took another payment and my days left were almost 600. I guess I really wasn't contributing at all then. Roll



Just as a small note:

Multi month subscriptions also count as deferred income. (Though it's more certain, as you can't pause it, or stockpile time)


Accountants far prefer it when you know when income will become available, rather than being carried on the books. Smile



You're right about the plex though. CCP like it when people use plex. Reduces their liability. (though they prefer it when they explode)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Mag's
Azn Empire
#269 - 2014-10-13 20:56:31 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Well Steve has just told you how and when CCP get the income from a plex. But even so, you really are stretching reality if you think they do not contribute, even if it was as you suggested and paid some time ago.

Your argument was that they do not contribute. That's blatantly false and not even founded in reality. Plex users pay more than I do and it seems CCP get the money as and when they use them.

The joke is, I pay yearly. So CCP do actually get my money a full year before the end of my sub. So using your logic, I also do not contribute. I had at some point in my sub, changed my credit card. Doing so took another payment and my days left were almost 600. I guess I really wasn't contributing at all then. Roll



Just as a small note:

Multi month subscriptions also count as deferred income. (Though it's more certain, as you can't pause it, or stockpile time)


Accountants far prefer it when you know when income will become available, rather than being carried on the books. Smile



You're right about the plex though. CCP like it when people use plex. Reduces their liability. (though they prefer it when they explode)
Makes sense regarding the multi month sub.

Also I can see why CCP like it when we use or lose a plex. I'm just amazed at some peoples lack of understanding, in regards to their contribution to CCP and the game.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#270 - 2014-10-14 05:04:12 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Plex sit on CCPs books as deferred income, until they're consumed or destroyed.
It's money they can't do anything with, until the plex no longer exists. The moment a plex is consumed, the money is freed up for use.

Thanks for the insight.
Then isboxing is not as bad as I thought economically for the game...
I still believe that it projects a pay-to-win perception that is detrimental, but at least isboxers do continue to contribute income to CCP's coffer every month then.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Mag's
Azn Empire
#271 - 2014-10-14 07:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Saisin wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Plex sit on CCPs books as deferred income, until they're consumed or destroyed.
It's money they can't do anything with, until the plex no longer exists. The moment a plex is consumed, the money is freed up for use.

Thanks for the insight.
Then isboxing is not as bad as I thought economically for the game...
I still believe that it projects a pay-to-win perception that is detrimental, but at least isboxers do continue to contribute income to CCP's coffer every month then.
Not as bad as you thought economically? Even if it wasn't deferred, your argument was still wrong and without any basis in reality. As I pointed out, my yearly sub was just as poor in your logic as a contributor, as plex.

Whether or not it projects something is also relevant. ISBoxer cannot be held responsible for illogical thoughts, baseless accusations and pointless arguments.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Par'Gellen
#272 - 2014-10-17 12:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Par'Gellen
Mag's wrote:
But even English speaking people misquote the EULA to try and prove a point in this regard. Either that or they read only what they want to read, skipping the relevant parts.
I've noticed this as well. Even with CCP (you know, only the people that wrote and enforce the EULA in the first place) telling them they are wrong they still choose to believe they know better. Baffling.

Edit: Quote fail

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...
Pain Time
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#273 - 2014-10-17 18:40:41 UTC
Ban isboxer? I'll still be here, granted it may take abit to setup, but im quite aware of how to do this exact same setup i personally use, with hardware. not to mention i publicly can state that there is over 1000 accounts in the channel I currently privately invite to. and yes, we do communicate.
Syllviaa
Hole Exploitation Inc.
#274 - 2014-10-18 04:55:13 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
tl;dr: If ISBoxer does not give an advantage to players that use it, why do they use it?

Mallak Azaria wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
I see a problem with this as the non Isboxers are gaining ice/isk much more slowly to the ISboxer fleet idea. Eventually they are forced to give up to find other ways to plex or run their industry....as in fuel block production...or collecting fuel for Jump drives.
This i believe it the heart of the matter for those that truly wish to ban ISboxer.....because it is an unfair advantage.


Explain how each single pilot is unfairly gaining more product per cycle than other characters.


It isn't about the single pilot/character. Of course any single pilot/character is no better than another.


And that is all that matters.

RIP Richard A. Butt
Empyre
Chaotic Balance
#275 - 2014-10-21 16:14:29 UTC
As an older player attempting to return to Eve, I ran into Mr Borg x50 on one of my characters almost immediately. The only thing that annoys the crap out of me about that person is that traffic control and lag get all sorts of messed up whenever I have to travel near the systems they are in. They are like a giant ball of lag that slowly travels throughout Lonetrek.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#276 - 2014-10-27 08:58:13 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:


Besides to do so would require CCP to add a clause to the EULA allowing them to scan clients computers activities outside of the EVE client. That would likely get EVE banned by most large countries due to privacy violations.

It just can not be done, at least not legally.



I'm fairly certain that Valve, and a variety of other games already actively do this without legal hassle because a) you are consenting to it and b) because they are only searching for certain file types, they are not snooping through personal data or information any more than an electronic security is used to scan for weapons.


As for isboxer, the amount of people that DO run more than 30 accounts is so ridiculously small, that its silly to address the entire subject based around them, which is probably why CCP doesn't. However, if this really is such a big issue, players can combat it. If you are determined, bump or suicide gank palyers like memory alpha. Sure, having enough battleships to gank all his skiffs before they simply warp off is probably not cost effective, and something he can probably replace quickly, but having a few characters simply bumping his freighters repeatedly, preventing them from warping out is particularly effective at shutting down his operation. Sure, the miners keep mining, but without anywhere to put the ore, or ice, it'll overflow fast with 40 skiffs, something that would create a real problem for him. Take it upon yourselves, to combat the actions of mega players like this.

The general userbase that uses isboxer and similar applications are not a problem for eve.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#277 - 2014-10-27 09:09:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
EULA:
D. MONITORING

You agree that CCP may remotely monitor your Game hardware solely for the purpose of establishing whether in playing the Game and accessing the System you are using software created or approved by CCP, or whether you are using unauthorized software created by you or a third party in contravention of Section 6.


But as Input mirroring is valid, such Monitoring doesn't matter anyway.

NPE – ISD – RIP
Vas Vadum
Draconian Empire
#278 - 2014-10-27 11:41:34 UTC
mynnna wrote:
I'd rather CCP look at common uses for IsBoxer and come up with inventive ways to reward individual players or individual players working cooperatively.

Nicely said.

I was slightly annoyed by people using ISBoxer many times around me, because I play with one single account, and work with a corporation or even out in null with others cooperatively and these people using ISBoxer come in, take everything I was doing, leaving me in the dust because I can't keep up and they just click one button to do 10 things at once.

I do know it gives CCP more income, so they won't really ban it, nor can they detect for it and there are ways of hiding it's usage even if CCP were to poke into the privacy of their users by hiding a process checking tool into the game client.

However, it's about the only way the game survives at this point, solo players are becoming extremely rare, I'm a rare breed now. :P Being a mining/industry person with only one account. It sucks when I'm mining with someone and a team of 10-30 ISBoxer guys comes in and deletes the entire belt before I can get what I need, shoving me off to have to leave the area. But meh. A reward for the solo account users that properly work with other human players or even work solo just fine, would be pretty nice.

However there is no real way for CCP to reward those types of people because again, they won't be able to detect the isboxer users from the non-isboxer guys.

Anyway, I don't support banning ISBoxer at this point, even though users using it have annoyed me quite a lot.
Brisco County
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#279 - 2014-10-30 06:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Brisco County
Why not just let me pay another plex every month to be able to duct tape another bomber to my own? Skip isboxer altogether, just give me a bomber that has double the grid/cpu/slots. That is functionally what isboxer does. CCP needs to handle this ****. If you are only controlling one ship and your commands are replicated (huehue replicator) to 30 others, you are functionally controlling a massive voltron of 31 ships as one with all of their weapons grouped. Being able to do such with a bunch of plex makes Eve P2W.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#280 - 2014-11-01 05:04:29 UTC
I realize OSX is a minority in the game, but if you ban ISBoxer for the reason stated...yes, I read every page of this...

You will have to kill the OSX client. I don't and won't use win blows, I am also not alone, there are plenty of people who don't have ready access to a PC.

That would certainly limit my ability to play to a point where it would be impossible to continue my subscription.

People would say, if you make ISBoxer illegal, you would lose subs etc, but in reality, if you kill OSX then you would be killings subs for sure. I have no way of logging in on a PC.

Can you imagine the legal ramifications of declaring an operating system against the EULA?? CCP surely doesn't want to get into a legal battle with a company with roughly 160 billion USD in cash laying around. (Look at Samsung, they have wasted billions trying to fight and only have bills and a 1.1 billion USD settlement to pay for it)