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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Lando Cenvax
The Nose Picker Clown Group
#921 - 2014-10-10 22:24:14 UTC
Glad you guys listened... now looking forward to this expansion.
Also good to know the Rorq will get its long overdue makeover...

On a sidenote: Standard Carriers currently have the most jump range and are also used as jump-freighters for assembled ships or as personal mobile base. Please consider giving them a slightly higher jump-range than the other cap ships, let's say 3,5 LY Base-Range.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#922 - 2014-10-10 22:25:03 UTC
Can we also remove ewar immunity from supers? Cool
Megarom
Shiva
Northern Coalition.
#923 - 2014-10-10 22:30:17 UTC
Couple of questions for Grayscale
The big general one:
Why is there any need for the fatigue math do more than limit the sustained speed to 0.1?

Smaller more specific ones, but:
1. Why so complicated model when a simple model satisfies the main requirement and situations in which the complex one is different very very rare anyway, assuming near max range jumps.
2. What purpose does it serve that you get bigger fatigue if you make two 1 LY jumps back to back compared to one 2 LY jump?
3. What purpose does it serve that you get bigger fatigue if you
1. jump 2. wait 6 minutes 3. jump 4. wait 50 minutes 5. jump
vs
1. jump 2. wait 50 minutes 3. jump 4. wait 6 minutes 5. jump
?


Rest of the post will be just long winded 'splain how it's going to be for Alekseyev's benefit.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Segava wrote:

Any news on a cap on extreme jump fatigue times? Or is this a myth that has been misunderstood?


Capped at 1 month of fatigue, so ~3 days of cooldown.

One month seems like a very low cap. It removes a lot of the disruptive potential of the change which has me somewhat less excited about the positive aspects of the long distance travel nerf.

One month isn't a very long time in EVE, especially on a large scale when you're talking about alliance/coalition deployments.

A cap is definitely needed to keep that math from going out of hand, but how did you arrive at a 1 month cap instead of 2/3?


Almost nobody is ever going to hit the cap. It's just a hand holding measure to make sure people who are intentionally raising their fatigue can shoot them selves in the foot only in a limited extend. Think of the bonus room where people are asked to jump their fatigue to years. That's what the cap protects players from.

The 1 month cap basically means that when you are at cap if you have to wait for more that 5/6 months ie. 25 days before you can make a 5 LY jump without fatigue being back to the cap. So unless you wait for more than that your travel speed is 5 LY / 3 days, Why would you not wait for extra 5 to you drop to 1.

In general if have the fatigue value of X and you are thinking of how much of it you should let decay before making the next 5 LY jump, you can wait for X*10 minutes for it to totally decay or X * 10 * (5/6) minutes or you can wait for less than the latter which is going to push you even farther into fatigue.

For what values of X and situations is it going to be the smart choice to not wait for the extra X * 10 (1/6)?

The only situation I can think of is that you are going to be AFG for the total fatigue decay time anyway, IE for the night for fatigue values in the area of 6 -12 hours, for the night + work day for 6-20 hours. The bigger ones if you are taking a breather. Alternative to AFG is of course not using anything that induces jump fatigue.

You can in theory hit 3 month cap with five 5 LY jumps with the last cooldown being 19 hours. The total distance traveled would be 25 LY. If you wait 50 minutes between all but the last 3 jumps, you can make the same trip in 3 hours 8 minutes. Or if you can't do it in one stretch dou to limited play time you can travel 10 LY on the first day and waiting 6 minute cooldown in the middle and 15 LY on the second with 6 and 32 minute cooldown respectively. Hitting the cap is just never going to happen to reasonable people. The cap has noting to do with how fast people are going to be redeploying with suitcase carriers.

Here are the maximum LYs per day depending on the length of play session.
< 6 m 5 LY / day
<38 m 10 LY / day
<1 h 28 m 15 LY / day
and from that up every 50 minutes adds another 5 LY jump
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#924 - 2014-10-10 23:16:35 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

BEfore jf EXISTED, BEFORE JUMP BRIDGES AND before INVETION existed. A HAC costed 300M isk..

So stop exagerating. These changes woould NOT have an impact of more than 20-30% on the prices.


you're leaving out the devaluation of the isk, IDK if you're doing it intentionally, or just didn't think about it, so let me add some information that actually validates the guy's statement.

"back then, a PLEX DIDN'T cost 800m isks either"

"back then, your isks bought more" (so 300m then would be allot closer to 800m today than you may want to admit)

"as recently as 4 years ago, the PLEX prices were about 1 quarter of what they are today"

Economics 101...

just saying

o/
Celly Smunt


Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Darryl Brown
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#925 - 2014-10-10 23:18:26 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Darryl Brown wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Black Ops fatigue is a value we're happy to tune, within a reasonable range. Make a case for a number and we'll listen :)


Oooh, ooh, pick me!

Combat black ops drops (e.g. Falcon tackles Rattlesnake in a Sanctum, lights covert cyno, two Panthers and a Sin jump in and kill Rattlesnake) are great fun. They add value to Eve because ratting with neuts or reds in local should be risky. They're not perfect; the target might be pre-aligned to a safe, loaded with warp core stabilizers, handy with an AB and MJD, or bait for a counter-drop. Blops drops depend upon stealth, patience, and mobility. The primary weapon is surprise - and jumping to the hunter cyno is essential for the surprise to work.

Here's how things work currently:
The hunter roams through a region, dodging gate camps and looking wistfully at shiny ships in POSes. At last! He spots a target in an anomaly. Things happen quickly - decloak, tackle, cyno, blops bses jump in, target dies, cyno down, scoop the loot, leave the scene. The black ops battleships wait for jump cap and then return to the staging system via jump. The hunter moves on in search of the next target.

Here's how things would work with a 5ly jump with these revised changes:
Hunter cyno goes up, Blops ships jump in, kill the target, and wait for 1+2.5 minutes before the jump cool-down expires. If they jump 5ly to the exit cyno after 3.5 minutes with 3.15 fatigue they get 3.15 x 3.5 = 11.025 fatigue and are done for the day. If they choose to wait in the system for at least 25 minutes, their fatigue drops below 1 and the next jump isn't quite so painful.

Assuming they're adaptive folks - they have abandoned the practice of always returning to the staging system and instead wait to jump directly to the next target. Either way - there is no point in continuing to hunt for 20+ minutes until the combat blops pilots' fatigue is reduced. This is not fun. Although I suppose the hunter could go around and do "catch and release" fishing for a bit. How about taking gates? Combat blops ships are certainly better than most ships at navigating bubble camps (better speed while cloaked, can fit MJDs), but they're also pricey and fragile. Plus, they warp at 2.2au/s, so warping from in-gate to target is not feasible.

I think a -50% fatigue factor is better than the original proposal but still extremely constraining. The added range (8 vs. 7.5ish) is nice, but this iteration would still mean 1-2 potential kills per session. Currently the limiting factors are all based on player behavior: Can you catch someone? Did they use their intel network and successfully avoid you?

Counter-point to what I just said:
If the blops jump drive (or covert bridge) receives a gentler nerf than this current iteration (as I think it should), it could potentially serve as a work-around for the consequences of other changes to movement in Phoebe. This is already the case for Jump Freighters-as-taxis (and industrials?), but Blops ships are considerably cheaper and more accessible (and covert bridges would be even more accessible).

In conclusion, I would be really sad if Phoebe removed the viability of blops drops from EVE. I am in favor of the vision behind Phoebe, but I really don't want blops ships to be collateral damage and I hope that you don't, too.


Excellent, thank you :)

The maths given in that example is incorrect. 11.025 means a jump cooldown of 11 minutes. You seem to think that means you are "done for the day", which indicates you are misunderstanding something. Why would that mean you are done for the day?

Also just to clarify something. Is it ( 1 + fatigue ) * 'fatigue reduction factor' OR 1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor' ?

BTW the first point is directed at Darryl.


I think it would be a 50% reduction to jump distance counted - so 1+50% of ly which I think corresponds with your "1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor'". And to clarify - by "done for the day" I mean that the consequences of a third jump (after the jump cool down wears off but with 10ish fatigue) would result in a huge jump cool down and fatigue timer. Using another 5 ly jump as an example, it would be 10 x 3.5 = 35 fatigue. And that would be 5.7 hours to get down below 1 fatigue. Eww.

But thank you for checking my math. Math in a forum for a game with a player-base like this is like doing math on the chalkboard in my Calc II class years ago. Nerve-wracking!
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#926 - 2014-10-10 23:45:23 UTC
1+('fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor')

that's what ive found on the test server so far.
even a jump of 0.199 ly gives an 12 min cooldown on a cap and a 10m20s cooldown on a jump freighter
Perseus Kallistratos
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#927 - 2014-10-11 00:05:44 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:


Silva told us you guys are scurred. lol


If Silva was actually involved in anything other than renter customer service your information might have carried some merit.
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lol
Agata Kristi
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#928 - 2014-10-11 00:12:22 UTC
Greyscale you really do need to consider the timer for capitals again. While I think it is a good idea, it needs a better implementation method. It needs to be a set figure, not an accumulative one. Your current system will make fleets or ops impossible as an fc would need to consider everyone's. As I've said before, a set timer would have the same impact, without limiting peoples play time ( as your current system does, who would want a month long wait for decay?). A set timer of say 10 mins before jumping again removes and accumulation of waiting, therefore not limiting peoples actual play time while still reducing power projection. Please consider this, as the current system either needs a drastic change or caps just with be feasible
Samuel Wess
Doomheim
#929 - 2014-10-11 00:23:50 UTC
Finally a good change after introduction of wormholes.

Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!"
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#930 - 2014-10-11 00:31:47 UTC
Perseus Kallistratos wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:


Silva told us you guys are scurred. lol


If Silva was actually involved in anything other than renter customer service your information might have carried some merit.
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lol


Silva telling more lies, why I never.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#931 - 2014-10-11 00:33:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Darryl Brown wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
The maths given in that example is incorrect. 11.025 means a jump cooldown of 11 minutes. You seem to think that means you are "done for the day", which indicates you are misunderstanding something. Why would that mean you are done for the day?

Also just to clarify something. Is it ( 1 + fatigue ) * 'fatigue reduction factor' OR 1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor' ?

BTW the first point is directed at Darryl.


I think it would be a 50% reduction to jump distance counted - so 1+50% of ly which I think corresponds with your "1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor'". And to clarify - by "done for the day" I mean that the consequences of a third jump (after the jump cool down wears off but with 10ish fatigue) would result in a huge jump cool down and fatigue timer. Using another 5 ly jump as an example, it would be 10 x 3.5 = 35 fatigue. And that would be 5.7 hours to get down below 1 fatigue. Eww.

But thank you for checking my math. Math in a forum for a game with a player-base like this is like doing math on the chalkboard in my Calc II class years ago. Nerve-wracking!

Ok that makes more sense. Although I still don't see the problem with the 50% reduction.

Lets take two examples. I'm assuming that 1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor' is the correct formula as that seems to be the consensus.


Example 1. Hit and run type drop, 4LY from staging system.

Target 1 = 4LY
Current Fatigue = 0
Jump Cooldown = MAX ( 1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor' , 1 + Jump LY * 'fatigue reduction factor' ) = 3 mins
Jump Fatigue accrued = 3 ( 20 minutes to reduce )

Waiting Time = 3 mins

Target 2 = 4LY
Current Fatigue = 2.7
Jump Cooldown = MAX ( 1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor' , 1 + Jump LY * 'fatigue reduction factor' ) = 3 mins
Jump Fatigue accrued = 2.7 * 3 = 8.1 ( 1H 11 minutes to reduce )

End of Session


Example 2. Sustained multi hot drop.

Target 1 = 3LY
Current Fatigue = 0
Jump Cooldown = MAX ( 1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor' , 1 + Jump LY * 'fatigue reduction factor' ) = 2.5 mins
Jump Fatigue accrued = 2.5 ( 15 minutes to reduce )

Waiting Time = 15 mins

Target 2 = 6LY
Current Fatigue = 0
Jump Cooldown = MAX ( 1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor' , 1 + Jump LY * 'fatigue reduction factor' ) = 4 mins
Jump Fatigue accrued = 4 ( 30 minutes to reduce )

Waiting Time = 15 mins

Target 3 = 4LY
Current Fatigue = 2.5
Jump Cooldown = MAX ( 1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor' , 1 + Jump LY * 'fatigue reduction factor' ) = 3 mins
Jump Fatigue accrued = 2.5 * 3 = 7.5 ( 1H 5 minutes to reduce )

Waiting Time = 15 mins

Target 4 = 5LY
Current Fatigue = 6
Jump Cooldown = MAX ( 1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor' , 1 + Jump LY * 'fatigue reduction factor' ) = 4 mins
Jump Fatigue accrued = 6 * 3.5 = 21 ( 3H 20 minutes to reduce )

Waiting Time = 15 mins

Target 5 = 7LY
Current Fatigue = 19.5
Jump Cooldown = MAX ( 1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor' , 1 + Jump LY * 'fatigue reduction factor' ) = 10.75 mins
Jump Fatigue accrued = 19.5 * 4.5 = 87.75 ( 14H 27 minutes to reduce )

End of Session


This shows that with a 50% fatigue reduction, you will still be able to do hit and run type black ops drops, alongside more sustained methods of 5 or more drops in one session if you are smart. This seems perfectly reasonable to me and needs no adjustment other than perhaps reducing the black ops maximum range to 6 LY.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#932 - 2014-10-11 00:53:22 UTC
I think you'll see this add more layers to a sustained blops operation.

Currently if you're hunting an area the cyno goes up and everything jumps for the kill, but after an entity that wants to do sustained Blops operations over a region will tier their response to tackled prey.

Is it just a hauler or maybe a battlecruiser?

Squad One jumps to the cyno.

Is it a 10 man gate camp in the targets home system?

Maybe Squad One and Squad Two jump.

Tackled Carrier?

Wing 1 Jump.



This kind of limited release allows a fleet of a 50 black ops guys to constantly police an area without too much down time. Smaller groups will of course have to vary that response and or avoid certain situations but with smaller groups there is always a tighter coordination among a gangs members so even 10 or 20 guys can keep two hunters busy without fatigue.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
AzTrackGuy
Advanced Excavators Inc.
#933 - 2014-10-11 01:04:26 UTC
Querns wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Rorquals will stay at 5LY/90%


Is there a reason that Rorquals don't get the same 10LY range as JFs? Rorquals are used just as much for logistics as JFs, especially because their actual intended use isn't really...useful.


We didn't think it was sensible to let it keep its drone bonus and have a 10LY range, and at the end of the day the bonus won out. The ship needs a large rework anyway, and we'll revisit all this when that happens :)


I think anyone who is sane would willingly trade the drone damage bonus on rorquals for the extended range. If you're going to rework the ship anyways, this is the clear sacrifice to make.

Hell, replace the drone damage bonus on the hull with 20% additional jump range per level.


agreed, especially since most people such as myself only use the rorq as pos mining booster & a poor mans JF, i'd trade unused drone bonuses for jump range in a second

"If you put forth the effort to succeed... you will"
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#934 - 2014-10-11 01:04:33 UTC
I'm not sure why this has to be so complicated, restrictive and punitive.

The easiest way to reduce force projection with capitals would be to set a minimum jump timer "to the ship".
Reduce maximum range to 5LY, with 10 mins between jumps for the 1st 20LY (4 jumps in 40 minutes) increasing to 15 mins for each subsequent jump.
Every time the jump drive is activated, whether it be 2 LY or 5 LY incurs the timer.

Gate travel could reduce the "jump drive timer" by 2 min per gate + real time.
IE; jump 5 LY incur 10 min cool down to next jump - moving through 5 gates you can then jump 5 LY. As capitals take a while to navigate gate to gate, you could potentially go through 2 or 3 gates to reset the timer.
If you want to get from A to B as quickly as possible, gate travel is the only way to do it.

Capital Ships, not the pilots should have the restrictions.

The same could be used for titan bridging, if a titan lights a jump portal there is a 10 min cool down before it can be lit again. Miss the 1st bridge, you have to wait 10 mins or use gates.
Jump bridging could work the same way, as it is the ship that is restricted (not the pilot). Use a jump bridge or titan bridge you have to wait out the timer or use gates before you can do it again.
If force projection with subcaps using jump bridges, titan bridges is an issue, set a mass limit on jump portals, once that mass limit is reached the portal becomes inactive for a period of time. Maximum size for a "fleet" is 250, so the mass limit could be set at say 300 jumps in a given 30 min period with a cool down of 10 mins, so the use of a bridge by a small fleet or random jumps does not shut it down for a large fleet move.

Jump freighters, Rorquals and Blops gangs would be effected by the same timers but without the range restrictions. Range for these could remain as it is now but making consecutive jumps over long distances would be much slower. Gate travel would reduce timers as with capitals.


A visible timer, like current timers, could be displayed for the ship, if it takes you 45 seconds to travel from gate to gate you would see 2 mins 45 seconds come off the timer.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#935 - 2014-10-11 01:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Greyscale, is there any chance you could cap fatigue at a maximum of 300?

This would then give a maximum time possible to completely clear fatigue of 50 hours

And then for all ships you would have a maximum possible jump cooldown of 5 hours

Capping the maximum fatigue at 300 would mean that no one would ever be punished for more than 50 hours, and would still mean jump cooldown is at a prohibitive level when you raise your fatigue too greatly.

Also, I think you need to somehow link the cooldown to the ship as well as the pilot if that is at all possible to prevent multiple pilots being used to transfer capitals easily.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#936 - 2014-10-11 01:37:05 UTC
Blops are still fairly useless even with 50% fatigue.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#937 - 2014-10-11 01:38:14 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Blops are still fairly useless even with 50% fatigue.

Read my post a couple of replies above, you'll find they are still perfectly viable.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#938 - 2014-10-11 01:39:09 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
Celly S wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

BEfore jf EXISTED, BEFORE JUMP BRIDGES AND before INVETION existed. A HAC costed 300M isk..

So stop exagerating. These changes woould NOT have an impact of more than 20-30% on the prices.


you're leaving out the devaluation of the isk, IDK if you're doing it intentionally, or just didn't think about it, so let me add some information that actually validates the guy's statement.

"back then, a PLEX DIDN'T cost 800m isks either"

"back then, your isks bought more" (so 300m then would be allot closer to 800m today than you may want to admit)

"as recently as 4 years ago, the PLEX prices were about 1 quarter of what they are today"

Economics 101...

just saying

o/
Celly Smunt




There was no PLEX back then. :P Just GTC you bought from 3rd parties. And it wasn't an in-game item so it was really easy to get scammed.

I do however remember average prices for a Raven navy issue being well over a billion isk. Most tech 1 tier 1 battleships were around 130mil. The Cerberus, and some of the other HACS averaged between 240-300mil.

So strangely enough... Some things were cheaper... Some a lot more.
Antoinette Amelana
Jack's Complete Lack Of Surprise
Just let it happen
#939 - 2014-10-11 02:01:00 UTC
These changes overall continue to be punitive for logistics pilots. I can't believe that I would continue to pay for the privilege of having to wait to play. This is just ludicrous. Do what you want to capitals but leave the Rorq and the JF alone. NOT EVERYONE IS A PVP'er. This is probably the first indication that EveOnline is on its way out. It's too bad as I actually enjoyed playing.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#940 - 2014-10-11 02:02:24 UTC
Does a Blops using another Blops's tunnel get 75% reduction?