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FW O-plexing fix

Author
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-10-09 23:15:51 UTC
simple idea: Get rid of the absurd reps on the npcs and replace them with an adequate amount of buffer tank, as well as bumping up their dps to a useful level. This will allow for more ships to do offensive plexing for mediums and larges, as well as not giving the defenders too much of an advantage.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#2 - 2014-10-09 23:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
No. Solo pvp'ers will be upset.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-10-09 23:35:09 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
No. Solo pvp'ers will be upset.

Dps wouldn't increase *that* much. Just enough so that you wouldn't be able to passive tank it in an atron.
May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#4 - 2014-10-10 00:40:52 UTC
The DPS check really isn't that bad. Unless you're using a frigate with light missiles. Not entirely sure CCP considered that in their awesome RoF nerf.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-10-10 01:04:56 UTC
May Arethusa wrote:
The DPS check really isn't that bad. Unless you're using a frigate with light missiles. Not entirely sure CCP considered that in their awesome RoF nerf.


The problem is a fully maxed out 8 year veteran can only get 83 DPS in a LML Kestrel, but a 1 day old newbie can get 100dps out of a Merlin.








Also, go do Burner missions if you want a challenge against NPCs. I'm here to fight other people, not rats.
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-10-10 06:30:12 UTC
Isn't it kinda going back to where we've already been? I see a lot less farmers nowadays so I don't think I'd be happy with that Roll

As for dps - yeah. It's silly that I undock merlins PRECISELY because I want to be able to do novice AND small plexes in the same ship.

EVE isn't perfect yet, but I think it's better than it used to be.

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe

Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#7 - 2014-10-10 06:49:32 UTC
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
Isn't it kinda going back to where we've already been? I see a lot less farmers nowadays so I don't think I'd be happy with that Roll

As for dps - yeah. It's silly that I undock merlins PRECISELY because I want to be able to do novice AND small plexes in the same ship.

EVE isn't perfect yet, but I think it's better than it used to be.


the trick would be balancing the difficulty of oplexing with dplexing. Sure less farmers would be there, but if they do up the dps a bit I can see that helping drive the stabbed folks out and hopefully replace them with something that can be pinned down and fought with. The idea would be morphing the npcs so they create content rather than inhibit or restrict it.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#8 - 2014-10-10 13:28:44 UTC
npc is never the problem and it is never a solution.
Arla Sarain
#9 - 2014-10-10 13:42:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
If the NPC was meant to be a DPS check, why does it last as long as it does?
More like the NPC was a ninja increase to plex timers.

Also DPS isn't the only thing that matters. Alpha damage does too. Excluding it is what causes LML kestrels to be punished for novice plexing.

Typically alpha and DPS vary inversely. So if the NPC is really just meant to be a check against stabbed farmers, make them last 1-2 volleys from LML kestrels and regen quick enough to last 5s against DPS ships.

Current iteration seems either lazy or more of a proof of concept.
Now CCP should get someone whos good at maths and run some numbers to optimise the so called check.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#10 - 2014-10-10 13:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Bad Messenger wrote:
npc is never the problem and it is never a solution.


Unless they prevent your enemy from fighting inside a plex and at the same time allow you farming whordes to run rampant in stabbed hulls making bank.

I guess what you mean is that 'npc was never a problem to you and the new npc solution is a hindrance to your farming'.

In other words, QQ.

Arla Sarain wrote:
seems either lazy or more of a proof of concept.


Current iteration is the worst form of FW except all the other ones weve tried.

Arla Sarain wrote:
Now CCP should get someone whos good at maths and run some numbers to optimise the so called check.


Not an unreasonable request. Balancing checks between high and low dps platforms seems like it would be quite a convoluted mechanic to work alongside rats long rep cycle time. Decreasing their buffer opens up other problems too imo.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#11 - 2014-10-10 13:57:38 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
simple idea: Get rid of the absurd reps on the npcs and replace them with an adequate amount of buffer tank, as well as bumping up their dps to a useful level. This will allow for more ships to do offensive plexing for mediums and larges, as well as not giving the defenders too much of an advantage.


No.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#12 - 2014-10-10 18:14:03 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
npc is never the problem and it is never a solution.


Unless they prevent your enemy from fighting inside a plex and at the same time allow you farming whordes to run rampant in stabbed hulls making bank.

I guess what you mean is that 'npc was never a problem to you and the new npc solution is a hindrance to your farming'.

In other words, QQ.



as we have seen in the past changing npc has not really changed anything, every version has its own faults and consequence.

You can not solve FW problems just by changing npc in plexes.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#13 - 2014-10-10 19:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Bad Messenger wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
npc is never the problem and it is never a solution.


Unless they prevent your enemy from fighting inside a plex and at the same time allow you farming whordes to run rampant in stabbed hulls making bank.

I guess what you mean is that 'npc was never a problem to you and the new npc solution is a hindrance to your farming'.

In other words, QQ.



as we have seen in the past changing npc has not really changed anything, every version has its own faults and consequence.

You can not solve FW problems just by changing npc in plexes.


Some changes to NPC changed a whole lot. Major change impacts include;

Gallente able to fight inside plexes without getting perma-jammed.
Unfitted O-plexing no longer viable.
2 day old alts impact on the warzone has been largely curbed (ive already suggested a solution to d-plexing alts).
Larger plexes encouraging teamwork or larger hulls.

Thats just off the top of my head.

These changes are pretty much universally considered improvements. The only consequences i see for you are the same ones you have been whining about for more than 3 years. Im sorry, that you have to live with the consequences of a fairer occupancy war on a mechanics level. Im sure you had more fun when just about everything was stacked in the favor of caldari from rats to tz influence. Must be hard actually having to compete.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#14 - 2014-10-10 19:12:54 UTC
Honestly, the high natural dps of blasters has been the only saving grace in comparison to being the only faction that cannot do FW lvl 4 missions in a stealth bomber. This balances things out a bit, imo. We've always got a majority of our LP plex fighting anyway.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#15 - 2014-10-10 20:02:38 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
npc is never the problem and it is never a solution.


Unless they prevent your enemy from fighting inside a plex and at the same time allow you farming whordes to run rampant in stabbed hulls making bank.

I guess what you mean is that 'npc was never a problem to you and the new npc solution is a hindrance to your farming'.

In other words, QQ.



as we have seen in the past changing npc has not really changed anything, every version has its own faults and consequence.

You can not solve FW problems just by changing npc in plexes.

The real question that should be asked is, "Would getting rid of plex NPCs cause more problem than it solves" and the answer is unfortunately in the affirmative, so we have to keep asking what the correct form it must take to be balanced would look like. Cry
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#16 - 2014-10-10 20:07:29 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
npc is never the problem and it is never a solution.


Unless they prevent your enemy from fighting inside a plex and at the same time allow you farming whordes to run rampant in stabbed hulls making bank.

I guess what you mean is that 'npc was never a problem to you and the new npc solution is a hindrance to your farming'.

In other words, QQ.



as we have seen in the past changing npc has not really changed anything, every version has its own faults and consequence.

You can not solve FW problems just by changing npc in plexes.


Some changes to NPC changed a whole lot. Major change impacts include;

Gallente able to fight inside plexes without getting perma-jammed.
Unfitted O-plexing no longer viable.
2 day old alts impact on the warzone has been largely curbed (ive already suggested a solution to d-plexing alts).
Larger plexes encouraging teamwork or larger hulls.

Thats just off the top of my head.

These changes are pretty much universally considered improvements. The only consequences i see for you are the same ones you have been whining about for more than 3 years. Im sorry, that you have to live with the consequences of a fairer occupancy war on a mechanics level. Im sure you had more fun when just about everything was stacked in the favor of caldari from rats to tz influence. Must be hard actually having to compete.


1st you wanted npc that make possible to solo and then you want npc that requires team play

try to decide already what you want.

as said npc is not a solution to anything as you just pointed out.

Irya Boone
The Scope
#17 - 2014-10-10 20:09:04 UTC
2 Npcs in the plex one allied one ennemy in perpetual fight ( but their reps are sup to their dps so perpetual fight)
If you want to oplex you have to kill the ennemy npc , if you want to dplex you have to kill the ennemy npc too.

balanced!!

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB

Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#18 - 2014-10-10 20:09:53 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
npc is never the problem and it is never a solution.


Unless they prevent your enemy from fighting inside a plex and at the same time allow you farming whordes to run rampant in stabbed hulls making bank.

I guess what you mean is that 'npc was never a problem to you and the new npc solution is a hindrance to your farming'.

In other words, QQ.



as we have seen in the past changing npc has not really changed anything, every version has its own faults and consequence.

You can not solve FW problems just by changing npc in plexes.


Some changes to NPC changed a whole lot. Major change impacts include;

Gallente able to fight inside plexes without getting perma-jammed.
Unfitted O-plexing no longer viable.
2 day old alts impact on the warzone has been largely curbed (ive already suggested a solution to d-plexing alts).
Larger plexes encouraging teamwork or larger hulls.

Thats just off the top of my head.

These changes are pretty much universally considered improvements. The only consequences i see for you are the same ones you have been whining about for more than 3 years. Im sorry, that you have to live with the consequences of a fairer occupancy war on a mechanics level. Im sure you had more fun when just about everything was stacked in the favor of caldari from rats to tz influence. Must be hard actually having to compete.

These have been improvements, yes; but the issue at hand is how difficult it is to make ground in offensive plexing. Stronger dps from the npcs but a breakable tank for ships in mediums in larges by frigates is essentials due to it becoming a cost/mobility issue at that point. Both sides can agree that it's more cost-effective and generally more sensible to plex/pvp in a destroyer sized or smaller ship.
Currently since blasters are the only small weapon strong enough to break the reps in a large (and in many cases, medium) complex NPC tank you're stuck playing the short range tackle game, and end up being a sitting duck for kiters IF you're flying solo. Swapping it out to buffer tanks ensures that while it does take a little while to burn the npcs down, you CAN break their take fairly handily, and ensures the same time checks for isk per hour makes it less viable for lightly tanked/lightly gunned farmers to do offensive plexing, thus keeping the benefits of the current mechanic in place.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#19 - 2014-10-10 20:10:59 UTC
Irya Boone wrote:
2 Npcs in the plex one allied one ennemy in perpetual fight ( but their reps are sup to their dps so perpetual fight)
If you want to oplex you have to kill the ennemy npc , if you want to dplex you have to kill the ennemy npc too.

balanced!!

haha that's actually pretty clever; I could get behind that! +1
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#20 - 2014-10-10 20:42:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Bad Messenger wrote:
1st you wanted npc that make possible to solo and then you want npc that requires team play

try to decide already what you want.

as said npc is not a solution to anything as you just pointed out.



I can pvp in any size plex. Not sure what you are doing wrong if you think that is not possible atm. If i actually want to CAP the plex then that could be different. Especially if im in a frigate and i want to capture a large plex. Perhaps then a larger ship or more friends could help. I guess that only leaves you with the larger ship option though.

NPC stops people farming, and i can pvp inside plexes. For me, NPC's are perfect as they are. Unlike you however, i can see things from others perspective and recognize that some tweaks would benefit the everyone and their enjoyment they have in FW, namely defensive alts.

Catherine Laartii wrote:
These have been improvements, yes; but the issue at hand is how difficult it is to make ground in offensive plexing. Stronger dps from the npcs but a breakable tank for ships in mediums in larges by frigates is essentials due to it becoming a cost/mobility issue at that point. Both sides can agree that it's more cost-effective and generally more sensible to plex/pvp in a destroyer sized or smaller ship.


Increasing DPS of NPCS towards players just prevents too much meaningful small gang pvp. Basically, if making ground in offensive plexing is your primary concern then i would question your expectation to run all the plexes at the same time with just 4 people. Occupancy is at best when done in large groups rather than 4 guys who hit rats all day then run away and blue ball the defense. Offensive should = effort. The attackers should in turn make defending = effort too. Thats the paradigm of creating occupancy based conflict in FW.

Irya Boone wrote:
2 Npcs in the plex one allied one ennemy in perpetual fight ( but their reps are sup to their dps so perpetual fight)
If you want to oplex you have to kill the ennemy npc , if you want to dplex you have to kill the ennemy npc too.

balanced!!


MY IDEA :p
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