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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Kalissis
#621 - 2014-10-10 07:03:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalissis
Querns wrote:
Kalissis wrote:
[quote=Querns]

The only complicated thing here is that you are complete ignorant of FACTS. I'm not biased or have any hatred towards you or your group, your playstyle is not affecting me at all. But facts are facts and you are not even trying to argument them because you dont have any, because there are none against.

Your facts are equally applicable to T1 industrials. Interceptors take 10d to train (racial frigate: 3d, evasive maneuvering 5: 7d) -- low training time, check. Smartbombing kills T1 industrials, check. Well timed bombing runs kill T1 industrials, check. Wrong T1 industrial fit = caught, check. Bad skills -> caught? T1 industrial, checkaroonie. Pilot error -> caught? You better believe T1 industrials get a check here. Bigger footprint? Logging on 16 titan pilots to bridge industrials around ISN'T a big footprint? Contact lists exist. T1 industrial footprint? Check.

You can't selectively apply your "facts" to interceptors and not allow them to touch T1 industrials too.


All the risks do not apply if you are using titans, and even when you are using JBs they dont! Because a fleet cant camp JB as effective as gates (GUNS ON POSES!)!!! So now argument again that it applies, it does not!
Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#622 - 2014-10-10 07:04:25 UTC
Querns wrote:
Inslander Wessette wrote:
T1 hauler:

The 30 min training time ,

The cheap cost

The reduction in fatigue.

m^3 transported.

Jumping from Titan1 to station --> warping station to Titan 2 --> Titan 2 to target location . Using key jump points, making it a lot safer .

Sorry to say the adv out weight the small disadv they will have over interceptor travel of being a bit more faster .

Edit : Lol i guess someone replied similarly above before me :p

Ah, yes, training time -- truly the lynchpin of the experience. Woe is me -- the 10 days it takes to fly an interceptor is truly a barrier worth mentioning.

And the cost -- lord have mercy, that 30m cost for an interceptor.

All this time, I have been ignoring the ability of the interceptor to use a jump bridge. Sure, you can't use nearly as many, but the interceptor can use one on his journey with few adverse effects. This cuts his travel time down too!

You're insane if you think that jumping from titan to titan without taking gates every once in a while is somehow faster than zipping down the pipe in a nullified interceptor. Five minutes per jump. Five minutes per jump. Please repeat that until it is burned into your brain.


Lol your sarcasm cant deny facts . Five min per jump . but my assurance to the destination is certain . yours is not . If you get podded to home base . do your jumps all over . Ahem yeah .

Also my point is 5 mins is less of a fatigue when i'm taking an assured path . 10 mins all together to cross a lot of space.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#623 - 2014-10-10 07:07:25 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
Querns wrote:
Kalissis wrote:
[quote=Querns]

The only complicated thing here is that you are complete ignorant of FACTS. I'm not biased or have any hatred towards you or your group, your playstyle is not affecting me at all. But facts are facts and you are not even trying to argument them because you dont have any, because there are none against.

Your facts are equally applicable to T1 industrials. Interceptors take 10d to train (racial frigate: 3d, evasive maneuvering 5: 7d) -- low training time, check. Smartbombing kills T1 industrials, check. Well timed bombing runs kill T1 industrials, check. Wrong T1 industrial fit = caught, check. Bad skills -> caught? T1 industrial, checkaroonie. Pilot error -> caught? You better believe T1 industrials get a check here. Bigger footprint? Logging on 16 titan pilots to bridge industrials around ISN'T a big footprint? Contact lists exist. T1 industrial footprint? Check.

You can't selectively apply your "facts" to interceptors and not allow them to touch T1 industrials too.


All the risks do not apply if you are using titans, and even when you are using JBs they dont! Because a fleet cant camp JB as effective as gates (GUNS ON POSES!)!!! So now argument again that it apply, it does not!

Wrong -- a single drag bubble >300km away from a POS cannot be targeted by pos guns automatically. Dragging folks off of a jump bridge is trivial. (Oh, and hey, interceptors ignore this.)

Jump bridges can also be incapacitated.

Having 16 titans to exclusively bridge t1 industrials around is safer, but it's the slowest possible option because of fatigue. At more than 6 jumps, you have to stick to the 5 minute per jump rule. Not taking gates means that you can't use gate connections that are >5LY apart to speed travel.

You can't have both. Yet again, your vignette clashes with reality.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#624 - 2014-10-10 07:08:47 UTC
Inslander Wessette wrote:
Lol your sarcasm cant deny facts . Five min per jump . but my assurance to the destination is certain . yours is not . If you get podded to home base . do your jumps all over . Ahem yeah .

Also my point is 5 mins is less of a fatigue when i'm taking an assured path . 10 mins all together to cross a lot of space.

Exactly how much territory do you think is getting crossed in only 10 LY? Like, what is your scenario here?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#625 - 2014-10-10 07:09:20 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
Querns wrote:
Kalissis wrote:
[quote=Querns]

The only complicated thing here is that you are complete ignorant of FACTS. I'm not biased or have any hatred towards you or your group, your playstyle is not affecting me at all. But facts are facts and you are not even trying to argument them because you dont have any, because there are none against.

Your facts are equally applicable to T1 industrials. Interceptors take 10d to train (racial frigate: 3d, evasive maneuvering 5: 7d) -- low training time, check. Smartbombing kills T1 industrials, check. Well timed bombing runs kill T1 industrials, check. Wrong T1 industrial fit = caught, check. Bad skills -> caught? T1 industrial, checkaroonie. Pilot error -> caught? You better believe T1 industrials get a check here. Bigger footprint? Logging on 16 titan pilots to bridge industrials around ISN'T a big footprint? Contact lists exist. T1 industrial footprint? Check.

You can't selectively apply your "facts" to interceptors and not allow them to touch T1 industrials too.


All the risks do not apply if you are using titans, and even when you are using JBs they dont! Because a fleet cant camp JB as effective as gates (GUNS ON POSES!)!!! So now argument again that it apply, it does not!

its not hard. cloaks. on bombers and on BS. just wait for the right time. Scout says they're jumping you blap. You may lose a few BS (shouldnt lose too many bombers) but you have just stopped a fleet from showing up in time and sent them back to square one. If you brought bombers you now force them to move their bridge line or bomb them again. I

and quick question, what are these super-low skilled pilots flying at the end of their destination? Battlebadgers?
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#626 - 2014-10-10 07:12:31 UTC
This line of changes makes me sad that I am not an omnipotent being that can end the world by blinking. Yes this is a rage post, yes I am mad, no I am not quitting, no you cannot have my stuff if I do quit.

1) Carriers have long been the first line of the logistics for a budding nullsec player. Not until the last several years have they been abused for power projection. I understand the nerfing of carriers for power projection but you've entirely removed the foundation of logistics into nullsec. This entire set of changes could have been pre-empted in an alternate universe/timeline where 2 classes of carriers exist, combat and logistics, where each specific offensive and logistics roles.

2) Power projection and logistics are not the same thing. There have been times when I've been in smaller alliances fighting a larger enemy and attempting to hold. There is nothing positive from sweeping the legs out from under everyone, its entirely relative and if there is going to be any chance of smaller independent nullsec groups in the future its best not to be to harsh with these changes.

3) Jump Bridges are still being nerfed too much; Their reason for being is brought into question, the cost that goes into the CCP blackhole becomes signifigantly less justified.

4) Rorqual, If its need of a major revamp it, then do it already, don't leave it in a half useless configuration.

5) BLOPs this was the only potential good thing I had for jump fatigue. Since you Caved Fix Cloaky Camping already.

6) This Pipedream of a roadmap is a load of feces. If you have a set of overall changes covering multiple mechanics that you want to implement then please get all your changes together that are meant to go together and release it, that is what we used to call a proper patch, not this 6 week shi*t on a shingle malarky. If any change is intended to be combined with a future release the bare minimum you can do is tell us what that future release is vaguely intended to be.

7) Are you ever going to finish revamping all the hulls? Recons and Tech 3s come to mind.

8) GREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYSCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALE
Kalissis
#627 - 2014-10-10 07:14:22 UTC
Querns wrote:
Kalissis wrote:
Querns wrote:
Kalissis wrote:
[quote=Querns]

The only complicated thing here is that you are complete ignorant of FACTS. I'm not biased or have any hatred towards you or your group, your playstyle is not affecting me at all. But facts are facts and you are not even trying to argument them because you dont have any, because there are none against.

Your facts are equally applicable to T1 industrials. Interceptors take 10d to train (racial frigate: 3d, evasive maneuvering 5: 7d) -- low training time, check. Smartbombing kills T1 industrials, check. Well timed bombing runs kill T1 industrials, check. Wrong T1 industrial fit = caught, check. Bad skills -> caught? T1 industrial, checkaroonie. Pilot error -> caught? You better believe T1 industrials get a check here. Bigger footprint? Logging on 16 titan pilots to bridge industrials around ISN'T a big footprint? Contact lists exist. T1 industrial footprint? Check.

You can't selectively apply your "facts" to interceptors and not allow them to touch T1 industrials too.


All the risks do not apply if you are using titans, and even when you are using JBs they dont! Because a fleet cant camp JB as effective as gates (GUNS ON POSES!)!!! So now argument again that it apply, it does not!

Wrong -- a single drag bubble >300km away from a POS cannot be targeted by pos guns automatically. Dragging folks off of a jump bridge is trivial. (Oh, and hey, interceptors ignore this.)

Jump bridges can also be incapacitated.

Having 16 titans to exclusively bridge t1 industrials around is safer, but it's the slowest possible option because of fatigue. At more than 6 jumps, you have to stick to the 5 minute per jump rule. Not taking gates means that you can't use gate connections that are >5LY apart to speed travel.

You can't have both. Yet again, your vignette clashes with reality.


You have a ton of intel channels,do you really think a drag bubble on JB will go unnoticed? If on scan just use warp offs, EASY. Fact is not the same risk. Nearly none. But you are ignoring again the HUGE factor that you only need to be on the edge (defending) those gates between JBs rest is not important, while going gate to gate you need to cover way more systems. Again, not the same or equal, JB/TITANs way safer then using Interceports gate to gate.
Jaiimez Skor
The Infamous.
#628 - 2014-10-10 07:14:37 UTC
I would like to thank CCP and Greyscale for listening to the players response, i am looking forward to phoebe and my only major concern, whilst I look forward to a game environment where an alliance can be completely self sufficient In their own space I did not support the JF changes without a rebalance to nullsec minerals and industry so people are not dependant on empire for low and mid end minerals. I am glad CCP acknowledge these concerns and have chosen to give the JF a significant buff with a view to reviewing the changes post rebalance to null sec industry.
Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#629 - 2014-10-10 07:15:16 UTC
Normally in any kind of negotiation if one side refuses your offer you up it slightly, i.e you offer a little more and not completely cave in, even some people who were stoutly against the JF nerf are saying that 10 LY and 90% fatigue and the hauler fatigue story is a little bit much and makes the whole long distance travel work over largely pointless.

Middle ground would have been 7,5 LY range and ~75% fatigue reduction and no reduction at all for the T1 haulers using bridges.
yogizh
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#630 - 2014-10-10 07:17:55 UTC
Nice changes. Thanks for not punishing our logistics teams with hours of boredom, regardless the amount of highsec experts commenting on these changes.

Using rorquals for fighting is more a troll thing than a real issue.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#631 - 2014-10-10 07:18:49 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
You have a ton of intel channels,do you really think a drag bubble on JB will go unnoticed? If on scan just use warp offs, EASY. Fact is not the same risk. Nearly none. But you are ignoring again the HUGE factor that you only need to be on the edge (defending) those gates between JBs rest is not important, while going gate to gate you need to cover way more systems. Again, not the same or equal, JB/TITANs way safer then using Interceports gate to gate.

Hint: Dictors and hictors do not reveal their presence until they uncloak. They can lie in wait, and only drop a bubble at the moment when they would catch a lot of people.

I guess I forgot to mention that dictor/hictor bubbles do the same thing. At sufficient distances from the POS, the guns can't reach you. Bubble, light cyno, in come fatigue-bonused covert ships to clean up defenseless T1 haulers in complete safety from the POS guns. Game over.

I do like that you are resorting to the old, tired "intel channel" bit to try and make your point. Your playbook is starting to run a bit ragged.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Madrana
Hammer and Anvil Muppets
#632 - 2014-10-10 07:21:29 UTC
Vlade Randal wrote:
+1 Great idea changing jump freighter jump range to 10ly

The Rorqual is used a lot in nullsec transport, for dropping control towers, fueling pos, and as an alternative logistical transport ship for those lacking the skills or isk for a jump freighter. It plays a vital role in current nullsec logistics at present. Therefore, I suggest that the rorqual should also have the 10ly range to enable it to continue its vital role in 0.0.

The only other suggestion I would make, is that 5ly is marginally short for reaching key logistics points that have stations to dock in. Several of the jump routes i have looked at are 5.1ly to 5.8ly. Therefore I recommend increasing maximum jump range of combat vessels to 6ly. This would still achieve the goal of reducing force projection, while keeping it reasonably painless to move combat ships over time when needed.



+1
JimmieTwoTimes
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#633 - 2014-10-10 07:26:48 UTC
So what is going to be the standard convoluted CCP explanation as to why JF's can go further distances with less fatigue than all the other capitals?

Or are you just giving up on even trying to make any sense at all these days?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#634 - 2014-10-10 07:27:50 UTC
JimmieTwoTimes wrote:
So what is going to be the standard convoluted CCP explanation as to why JF's can go further distances with less fatigue than all the other capitals?

Or are you just giving up on even trying to make any sense at all these days?

lore wise or balance wise?
Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#635 - 2014-10-10 07:30:35 UTC
Querns wrote:
Inslander Wessette wrote:
Lol your sarcasm cant deny facts . Five min per jump . but my assurance to the destination is certain . yours is not . If you get podded to home base . do your jumps all over . Ahem yeah .

Also my point is 5 mins is less of a fatigue when i'm taking an assured path . 10 mins all together to cross a lot of space.

Exactly how much territory do you think is getting crossed in only 10 LY? Like, what is your scenario here?


Around 15 jumps Vestouve to CT7.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#636 - 2014-10-10 07:35:16 UTC
Inslander Wessette wrote:
Querns wrote:
Inslander Wessette wrote:
Lol your sarcasm cant deny facts . Five min per jump . but my assurance to the destination is certain . yours is not . If you get podded to home base . do your jumps all over . Ahem yeah .

Also my point is 5 mins is less of a fatigue when i'm taking an assured path . 10 mins all together to cross a lot of space.

Exactly how much territory do you think is getting crossed in only 10 LY? Like, what is your scenario here?


Around 15 jumps Vestouve to CT7.

Seems like a JF could do this even better. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Anshar,444/Vestouve:CT7-5V

(JDC4 now = JDC5 post-phoebe)

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Josef Djugashvilis
#637 - 2014-10-10 07:37:17 UTC
What do CCP and CODE have in common?

They both talked tough, then bottled it.

This is not a signature.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#638 - 2014-10-10 07:42:59 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
You have a ton of intel channels,do you really think a drag bubble on JB will go unnoticed? If on scan just use warp offs, EASY. Fact is not the same risk. Nearly none. But you are ignoring again the HUGE factor that you only need to be on the edge (defending) those gates between JBs rest is not important, while going gate to gate you need to cover way more systems. Again, not the same or equal, JB/TITANs way safer then using Interceports gate to gate.


They go unnoticed, and not only go they unnoticed or are simply ignored there. Some CFC people can tell you. Blink

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#639 - 2014-10-10 07:44:49 UTC
Querns wrote:
Inslander Wessette wrote:
Querns wrote:
Inslander Wessette wrote:
Lol your sarcasm cant deny facts . Five min per jump . but my assurance to the destination is certain . yours is not . If you get podded to home base . do your jumps all over . Ahem yeah .

Also my point is 5 mins is less of a fatigue when i'm taking an assured path . 10 mins all together to cross a lot of space.

Exactly how much territory do you think is getting crossed in only 10 LY? Like, what is your scenario here?


Around 15 jumps Vestouve to CT7.

Seems like a JF could do this even better. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Anshar,444/Vestouve:CT7-5V

(JDC4 now = JDC5 post-phoebe)


:) . Yeah . But my point was that only an Anshar or any JF should do it :D . But with hauler stuff . I dont need a 6.6 bil ship or skills . All i just have to wait for my titan buddy to log on and use 5 T1 indy alts to do it ?

Also to reach CT7 and back with minimal fatigue and to use combat caps from CT7 is insane :) .
Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#640 - 2014-10-10 07:45:36 UTC
Inslander Wessette wrote:
Querns wrote:
Inslander Wessette wrote:
Querns wrote:
Inslander Wessette wrote:
Lol your sarcasm cant deny facts . Five min per jump . but my assurance to the destination is certain . yours is not . If you get podded to home base . do your jumps all over . Ahem yeah .

Also my point is 5 mins is less of a fatigue when i'm taking an assured path . 10 mins all together to cross a lot of space.

Exactly how much territory do you think is getting crossed in only 10 LY? Like, what is your scenario here?


Around 15 jumps Vestouve to CT7.

Seems like a JF could do this even better. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Anshar,444/Vestouve:CT7-5V

(JDC4 now = JDC5 post-phoebe)


:) . Yeah . But my point was that only an Anshar or any JF should do it :D . But with T1 hauler stuff . I dont need a 6.6 bil ship or skills . All i just have to wait for my titan buddy to log on and use 5 T1 indy alts to do it ?

Also to reach CT7 and back with minimal fatigue and to use combat caps from CT7 is insane :) .