These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#561 - 2014-10-10 04:56:40 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
  • The ease of nullsec logistics permitted by jump freighters and, to a lesser extent, jump bridge networks is not aligned with where we would like nullsec industry to be.
  • It *is*, however, pretty well aligned with where nullsec industry is right now. As we improve the status quo for industry in nullsec, we will want to reevaluate this balance, along with the impact potential changes would have on logistical work for other areas of the game.
Just to be clear: the combination of these two statements seem to say that the JF range change is likely to be a temporary compromise fix while you put phases 2 and 3 of your plan into effect. And that once more of the overall plan is in place, the range of JFs is then likely to be reduced.

Is that more or less accurate with the information you have today?



FINALLY, someone who actually READ what Greyscale wrote instead of parroting their "I want it my way" crap...

+1

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#562 - 2014-10-10 04:59:01 UTC
Inslander Wessette wrote:
Querns wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


  • All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.


    • You do realize that this will be horribly abused to quickly move capital pilot clones and will undo a lot of the positive aspects of the changes you are making right?

    This is not true. Interceptors are much faster over the distances you're worried about.


    Interceptor's cant carry as much as T1 haulers or as easily trainable than a T1 hauler. which is like 30 min ?

    Ah, yes, the terrifying 13k m^3 that a travel fit wreathe or blockade runner can hold. Truly, we are in the, as Laughable Xhosa Girl once said, "the winter of our discount tent." You could fit a whole CRUISER in there.

    In what world does it make more sense to carry around single ships in a t1 industrial everywhere you go over using a jump freighter on an alt, or employing a corp/alliance/coalition JF service to do the hauling for you?

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    KayleInara
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #563 - 2014-10-10 05:04:45 UTC
    Gorgof Intake wrote:


    Reading comprehension still outstanding in the CFC.

    Pro-tip. It was a noob alt.

    Also, set for nullsec route to test theory rather than go through hi sec.


    It's the low-sec portion of taking a T1 from null to Hi-sec that's usually the killer though, especially the gates between null/low and low/hi, or at least that was my experience.

    In fairness to transparency, I haven't tried to fly through low in years though, I'm perfectly happy living out in 0.0 and never visiting low/hi sec (when I actually log in and play that is) other than when I'm scouting/exploring through wormholes and want to see if they go someplace interesting.
    Kristina Artemyeva
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #564 - 2014-10-10 05:08:38 UTC
    I'm sad ........ was waiting to see the mass QQ ..................
    afkboss
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #565 - 2014-10-10 05:09:04 UTC
    I am very concerned about nerfing logistics to force people into industry. This would make it harder for smaller cops and alliances to setup in nullsec as they wont have the industry backbone that large coalitions will. This seems tp be going against what you are trying to achieve.
    Kalissis
    #566 - 2014-10-10 05:14:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalissis
    With T1 Indis having only 90% fatigue, power projection is going to be:

    1. get into T1 into
    2. project your ass over 10 titans (5ly bridges) to BS cache location.
    3. get into BS, fight
    4. fly back with your T1 indi using same 10titans.

    @CCP Greyscale this benefits verly large groups that can cache their ships across EVE, please take away the 90% bonus and stick to your plan having this bonus only on Rorq and JF (and maybe BLOPS bridged ships).
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #567 - 2014-10-10 05:17:13 UTC
    Kalissis wrote:
    With T1 Indis having only 90% fatigue, power projection is going to be:

    1. get into T1 into
    2. project your ass over 10 titans (5ly bridges) to BS cache location.
    3. get into BS, fight
    4. fly back with your T1 indi using same 10titans.

    @CCP Greyscale this benifits verly large groups that can cache their ships across EVE, please take away the 90% bonus and stick to your plan having this bonus only on Rorq and JF (and maybe BLOPS bridged ships).

    This is false. Interceptors are much better at travel than t1 industrials, even in the face of jump bridges. Check here for the math that proves it takes interceptors half the time to cross large distances.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Celly S
    Neutin Local LLC
    #568 - 2014-10-10 05:19:49 UTC
    Hendrick Tallardar wrote:


    Don't smartbombs work as a pretty good deterrent for Interceptors?


    Sure, because it is a well known fact that every interceptor materializes within 5k of a disco ship when it jumps a gate...

    *shrug*

    o/

    Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
    Ukiah Oregan
    Lithomancers
    #569 - 2014-10-10 05:23:00 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:


    For players less than thirty days old, once per player corporation joined, or
    For all players greater than thirty days old, once per year:

    You may push a button in your corp interface (while a member of a player corp and docked) that:
    • Moves your medical clone to a station designated by your corporation, and
    • Then moves you to the (new) station containing your medical clone

    Exact method of corporations designating target station still being ironed out, but it will involve at the very least being able to designate a default station for all corp members, and will likely be allowed for *any* station with a corp office, regardless of system sec status. This seems to us like it solves the "I want to recruit people to Nullsec" concern, and also gives non-Nullsec recruiters an easier way to get genuinely new players to the right location easily.


    Is anyone concerned about the idea that a pilot can become more or less locked into a corp for a year?

    How does this allow a player to realistically relocate - change corp or alliance in a timely manner?

    Personally i would think this should be given a second thougth and revise the wait to a 15 to 30 day wait limit

    having to wait 15 to 20 days would help eliminate the "immediate" force projection factor while allowing for a better player movement as they search for a permanent home

    i would think this could be a hard sale to pitch to a recruit if you're in deep NULL with no way out for year.....
    Ukiah Oregan
    Lithomancers
    #570 - 2014-10-10 05:25:28 UTC
    BTW - thanks for the response - and rethinking the original proposal!!

    that's cool all by itself!
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #571 - 2014-10-10 05:30:19 UTC
    Ukiah Oregan wrote:
    CCP Greyscale wrote:


    For players less than thirty days old, once per player corporation joined, or
    For all players greater than thirty days old, once per year:

    You may push a button in your corp interface (while a member of a player corp and docked) that:
    • Moves your medical clone to a station designated by your corporation, and
    • Then moves you to the (new) station containing your medical clone

    Exact method of corporations designating target station still being ironed out, but it will involve at the very least being able to designate a default station for all corp members, and will likely be allowed for *any* station with a corp office, regardless of system sec status. This seems to us like it solves the "I want to recruit people to Nullsec" concern, and also gives non-Nullsec recruiters an easier way to get genuinely new players to the right location easily.


    Is anyone concerned about the idea that a pilot can become more or less locked into a corp for a year?

    How does this allow a player to realistically relocate - change corp or alliance in a timely manner?

    Personally i would think this should be given a second thougth and revise the wait to a 15 to 30 day wait limit

    having to wait 15 to 20 days would help eliminate the "immediate" force projection factor while allowing for a better player movement as they search for a permanent home

    i would think this could be a hard sale to pitch to a recruit if you're in deep NULL with no way out for year.....

    They're actually iterating on this and allowing you to revoke your clone contract, which has the effect of setting your medical clone to a (single) rookie system in empire as a "Last Helicoptor out of Saigon" type action. This doesn't solve all of your issues, but it does give folks an option to beat feet, should they find their current situation untenable.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Grath Telkin
    Amok.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #572 - 2014-10-10 05:39:42 UTC
    Querns wrote:
    Kalissis wrote:
    With T1 Indis having only 90% fatigue, power projection is going to be:

    1. get into T1 into
    2. project your ass over 10 titans (5ly bridges) to BS cache location.
    3. get into BS, fight
    4. fly back with your T1 indi using same 10titans.

    @CCP Greyscale this benifits verly large groups that can cache their ships across EVE, please take away the 90% bonus and stick to your plan having this bonus only on Rorq and JF (and maybe BLOPS bridged ships).

    This is false. Interceptors are much better at travel than t1 industrials, even in the face of jump bridges. Check here for the math that proves it takes interceptors half the time to cross large distances.


    You math was proven to be true only in the extreme cases, it was also proven you didn't understand how the 90% reduction worked

    Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
    Viceversa
    Cancer Therapy
    Ginnungagap
    #573 - 2014-10-10 05:39:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Viceversa
    Lot better than previous one.
    and it is time to think about why has CCP increased the jump range of black-ops.
    Kalissis
    #574 - 2014-10-10 05:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalissis
    Querns wrote:
    Kalissis wrote:
    With T1 Indis having only 90% fatigue, power projection is going to be:

    1. get into T1 into
    2. project your ass over 10 titans (5ly bridges) to BS cache location.
    3. get into BS, fight
    4. fly back with your T1 indi using same 10titans.

    @CCP Greyscale this benifits verly large groups that can cache their ships across EVE, please take away the 90% bonus and stick to your plan having this bonus only on Rorq and JF (and maybe BLOPS bridged ships).

    This is false. Interceptors are much better at travel than t1 industrials, even in the face of jump bridges. Check here for the math that proves it takes interceptors half the time to cross large distances.


    It is not, while using gates has a certain risk (doesnt matter if you are using Interceptors, risk is there) and you dont get to leave systems out (as per jumping 5ly ahead), thus maintaining very low footprint compared to using gates and traveling system to system.

    Using Indis and bridges will yield no such thing, also what about JUMP BRIDGES? using Interceptors is not and is never as fast as using jump bridges with 90% less fatigue.
    Christopher Mabata
    Northern Accounts and Systems
    #575 - 2014-10-10 05:50:23 UTC
    Tears of joy that my Sins are not worthless now
    \o/

    ♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

    This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #576 - 2014-10-10 05:50:30 UTC
    Grath Telkin wrote:

    You math was proven to be true only in the extreme cases, it was also proven you didn't understand how the 90% reduction worked

    The "extreme cases" are exactly the point of the change. Did you forget that the whole point of fatigue was to punish long-distance travel, while leaving comparatively short-range travel less inhibited?

    Besides, you yourself went out of your way to mention Tenal to Delve as the fulcrum of your issue with the proposed changes. You don't get to use an "extreme case" on one hand and then denounce it later when math makes it inconvenient.

    And I understand the 90% reduction just fine -- I just think managing long-term fatigue is more important than squandering it on one-way fast travel. People have to get back from their little excursions, too. The whole point of the fatigue formula is to allow short bursts, but to make you pay for your haste later.

    Even if you did get your way and the 90% fatigue reduction was removed from hauling ships, what exactly have you gained? Interceptors still exist; interceptors still ignore bubbles; interceptors still have best-in-class warp speed. You're tilting at windmills because you have created a bogey man in Jump Bridges that does not actually exist, when the real issue is the interceptor.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Christopher Mabata
    Northern Accounts and Systems
    #577 - 2014-10-10 05:55:17 UTC
    Celly S wrote:
    Ripard Teg wrote:
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    • The ease of nullsec logistics permitted by jump freighters and, to a lesser extent, jump bridge networks is not aligned with where we would like nullsec industry to be.
    • It *is*, however, pretty well aligned with where nullsec industry is right now. As we improve the status quo for industry in nullsec, we will want to reevaluate this balance, along with the impact potential changes would have on logistical work for other areas of the game.
    Just to be clear: the combination of these two statements seem to say that the JF range change is likely to be a temporary compromise fix while you put phases 2 and 3 of your plan into effect. And that once more of the overall plan is in place, the range of JFs is then likely to be reduced.

    Is that more or less accurate with the information you have today?



    FINALLY, someone who actually READ what Greyscale wrote instead of parroting their "I want it my way" crap...

    +1


    that does sound like more or less how it is going to be, but if theyre that confident industry can be revived in null sec to balance this i say lets give it a shot.

    ♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

    This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #578 - 2014-10-10 05:55:52 UTC
    Kalissis wrote:
    Querns wrote:
    Kalissis wrote:
    With T1 Indis having only 90% fatigue, power projection is going to be:

    1. get into T1 into
    2. project your ass over 10 titans (5ly bridges) to BS cache location.
    3. get into BS, fight
    4. fly back with your T1 indi using same 10titans.

    @CCP Greyscale this benifits verly large groups that can cache their ships across EVE, please take away the 90% bonus and stick to your plan having this bonus only on Rorq and JF (and maybe BLOPS bridged ships).

    This is false. Interceptors are much better at travel than t1 industrials, even in the face of jump bridges. Check here for the math that proves it takes interceptors half the time to cross large distances.


    It is not, while using gates has a certain risk (doesnt matter if you are using Interceptors, risk is there) and you dont get to leave systems out (as per jumping 5ly ahead), thus maintaining very low footprint compared to using gates and traveling system to system.

    Using Indis and bridges will yield no such thing, also what about JUMP BRIDGES? using Indis is not and is never as fast as using jump bridges with 90% less fatigue.

    Take a look at the math again. Using interceptors to cross the distance from YA0 to F2O takes half the time of using jump bridges in a travel fit industrial.

    You can't talk about comparative risk while completely ignoring bubble immunity. That interceptors are vulnerable in a very specific scenario requiring significant setup time (and the accumulation of a boatload of fatigue for the smartbombing battleships) does not even remotely compare to the dangers a T1 industrial faces taking gates. You do know that jump bridges are only one per system, right? That anyone using them has to take a gate to get to the next one?

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #579 - 2014-10-10 05:58:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
    Christopher Mabata wrote:
    Tears of joy that my Sins are not worthless now
    \o/

    to get round numbers.

    E wow i quoted the wrong person
    Tootenh'amon
    #580 - 2014-10-10 05:58:54 UTC
    Was hoping for the return of the old EvE, where without omnipresent jfs somehow everyone still managed to get everything they needed. Where losing a ship meant an actual loss, not a minor inconvenience of getting five more from Jita. I was hoping for the end of huge alliances being able to intervene anywhere they please.

    I resubbed hoping for a new start, now I'm just waiting for CCP to cave in to the whining of supercap pilots. Didn't last long.