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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#541 - 2014-10-10 03:35:50 UTC
I'm kinda disappointed that JF are getting back the range (sorry JF pilots). However I am glad to hear that this isn't the desired end state and will be looked at along with the things they carry (building materials) and their local acquisition Are going to be revisited. Is there a desired timeline for this? My hope is that it will come along with the sov changes and a rorqual rebalance.
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#542 - 2014-10-10 03:47:52 UTC
Ele Rebellion wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

We don't like repeating decimals.



What about Pi? It doesn't repeat.


The Pi doesn't apply. Greyscale was fairly clear. Not like he said they don't like decimals at all
Gorgof Intake
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#543 - 2014-10-10 03:49:53 UTC
KayleInara wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

From the bowels of Dek to empire and back every day with no penalty at all, every day, in T1 haulers, still faster than ceptors


I'm pretty sure that the penalty for taking a T1 hauler from the bowels of Dek to empire and back is that you never actually get there due to your T1 hauler getting exploded somewhere along the way.


Two weeks ago I JC'd a cyno alt to an old JC I had down in Delve from when I was last down there 6 mths or more ago. I put it in a t1 hauler with a cyno still on it, full of expanded cargo hold lows. I set its autopilot through nullsec all the way to a station in Cobalt Edge- 90 odd jumps or something like that. I hit autopilot and went to work. Was going to be interesting to see how far it got before it was podded.

I came home to find it sitting there off station unable to dock. I forgot it had been kicked from corp and was in a noob corp. So in other words, Null Sec is currently that empty and devoid of content that one can autopilot a t1 hauler 90jumps from Delve to Cobalt Edge through the late Euro and the entire US prime and come back to it in the middle of the AUtz and find it not destroyed. It had taken armor dmg so I imagine that the worst that had happened to it was rat spawns had nibbled on it as it slowboated towards a gate.
Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#544 - 2014-10-10 03:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Inslander Wessette
+ 1 to you greyscale for listenining on JF changes.

Regarding 50% reduction on fatigue on BLOPs, dont u think this could be used as a mode of transport to reach various ship cache's located at different strategic points faster than intended ? especially by large blocs ?


With the cloak + easy ability to jump through gates dont you thing its bit too much for a combat capable ship with 8ly range ?

Projecting T3's through BLOPS would be the most used doctrine out of it .

Keep the fatigue as it is . People can stay cloaked !! -_-

Keep fatigue same for T1 Hauler, freighters too . No 90% reduction !! . If you are doing all this then there is no actual need of using a JF and limiting specialty in roles all over.

50% reduction, 90% reduction if your going to reduce more you might as well remove jump fatigue greyscale *face palm*
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#545 - 2014-10-10 03:57:06 UTC
Gorgof Intake wrote:
KayleInara wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

From the bowels of Dek to empire and back every day with no penalty at all, every day, in T1 haulers, still faster than ceptors


I'm pretty sure that the penalty for taking a T1 hauler from the bowels of Dek to empire and back is that you never actually get there due to your T1 hauler getting exploded somewhere along the way.


Two weeks ago I JC'd a cyno alt to an old JC I had down in Delve from when I was last down there 6 mths or more ago. I put it in a t1 hauler with a cyno still on it, full of expanded cargo hold lows. I set its autopilot through nullsec all the way to a station in Cobalt Edge- 90 odd jumps or something like that. I hit autopilot and went to work. Was going to be interesting to see how far it got before it was podded.

I came home to find it sitting there off station unable to dock. I forgot it had been kicked from corp and was in a noob corp. So in other words, Null Sec is currently that empty and devoid of content that one can autopilot a t1 hauler 90jumps from Delve to Cobalt Edge through the late Euro and the entire US prime and come back to it in the middle of the AUtz and find it not destroyed. It had taken armor dmg so I imagine that the worst that had happened to it was rat spawns had nibbled on it as it slowboated towards a gate.

Isn't that route completely blue or in empire for you except for a few jumps in Delve?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Gorgof Intake
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#546 - 2014-10-10 03:59:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorgof Intake
Querns wrote:
Gorgof Intake wrote:
KayleInara wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

From the bowels of Dek to empire and back every day with no penalty at all, every day, in T1 haulers, still faster than ceptors


I'm pretty sure that the penalty for taking a T1 hauler from the bowels of Dek to empire and back is that you never actually get there due to your T1 hauler getting exploded somewhere along the way.


Two weeks ago I JC'd a cyno alt to an old JC I had down in Delve from when I was last down there 6 mths or more ago. I put it in a t1 hauler with a cyno still on it, full of expanded cargo hold lows. I set its autopilot through nullsec all the way to a station in Cobalt Edge- 90 odd jumps or something like that. I hit autopilot and went to work. Was going to be interesting to see how far it got before it was podded.

I came home to find it sitting there off station unable to dock. I forgot it had been kicked from corp and was in a noob corp. So in other words, Null Sec is currently that empty and devoid of content that one can autopilot a t1 hauler 90jumps from Delve to Cobalt Edge through the late Euro and the entire US prime and come back to it in the middle of the AUtz and find it not destroyed. It had taken armor dmg so I imagine that the worst that had happened to it was rat spawns had nibbled on it as it slowboated towards a gate.

Isn't that route completely blue or in empire for you except for a few jumps in Delve?


Reading comprehension still outstanding in the CFC.

Pro-tip. It was a noob alt.

Also, set for nullsec route to test theory rather than go through hi sec.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#547 - 2014-10-10 04:04:57 UTC
Gorgof Intake wrote:

Reading comprehension still outstanding in the CFC.

Pro-tip. It was a noob alt.

Also, set for nullsec route to test theory rather than go through hi sec.

Okay. Still doesn't change the fact that the only nullsec you went through was renter space. What did you expect to happen -- the renters would do anything but dock up when a neutral came through?

Y'all give me flak for choosing the "worst possible scenario" and you go and come up with a crappy anecdote like this?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#548 - 2014-10-10 04:06:12 UTC
Gorgof Intake wrote:


Grath is spot on. Greyscale, I ask you a simple question here. Do you think this will change the current status quo of logistics in Eve? Does reeling back capital projection alone promote content in nullsec without also finally cutting the umbilical cord to Jita nullsec currently relies on? Its a bit of a post, but if you could take the time to read it, I'd appreciate it.

1. At the moment, there is little to no point in me sourcing, producing or converting nullsec materials locally. It's far more time and energy efficient to continue to import and export out of Jita through a JF cyno chain.

2. Alliance mates who run moon goo POS networks across 6 different regions maintain those POS with relative ease through a similar JF network, importing and exporting out of Jita. The logistics capability to import a large proportion of a major powerbloc's war materiel needs as well as then exporting out a heafty chunk of the wealth of nullsec moon goo is done by less than a dozen players, in relative safety and with no real need of support from our alliance mates.

3. Our greatest threat comes from being ganked moving our goo through several high sec jumps to Jita. At no point throughout the extraction process from null sec are we currently at threat. The process takes about 40min total to complete.

4. Our enemies use similar processes and there is therefore no reasonable way for us to disrupt their industrial capability or harass their war logistics through asymmetric warfare or conducting raids through their territory.


Your original changes would have forced a complete rethink on this. We were in the process of going back to the drawing board on how to completely revolutionise our organisation. Everything from localised production, getting more people involved with logistics, communal sharing of corporation JFs, assigning responsibility for FCs to perfect raiding and blockading theories, hell, even looking at recruitment of carebears to prop up the corps pvp-centric demographic was on the table.


Well thought out and something that I think is the future of the game as CCP moves through its development cycle. But let me ask you a question: What is stopping you from moving forward and getting ahead of the curve? Why wait until CCP forces your hand? So many of the things you were planning on doing can still be done. Get those non-PVP players to come join you and start contributing effort locally. Why wait when you can be the forerunner. It's not as if any of those ideas will put you at a disadvantage, even if others maintain the status quo.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#549 - 2014-10-10 04:12:25 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


  • All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.


    • You do realize that this will be horribly abused to quickly move capital pilot clones and will undo a lot of the positive aspects of the changes you are making right?
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #550 - 2014-10-10 04:19:30 UTC
    Andrea Keuvo wrote:
    CCP Greyscale wrote:


  • All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.


    • You do realize that this will be horribly abused to quickly move capital pilot clones and will undo a lot of the positive aspects of the changes you are making right?

    This is not true. Interceptors are much faster over the distances you're worried about.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Gorgof Intake
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #551 - 2014-10-10 04:22:11 UTC
    Querns wrote:
    Gorgof Intake wrote:

    Reading comprehension still outstanding in the CFC.

    Pro-tip. It was a noob alt.

    Also, set for nullsec route to test theory rather than go through hi sec.

    Okay. Still doesn't change the fact that the only nullsec you went through was renter space. What did you expect to happen -- the renters would do anything but dock up when a neutral came through?

    Y'all give me flak for choosing the "worst possible scenario" and you go and come up with a crappy anecdote like this?


    I think you answered your own question there. I started on the 'western' side of the map and finished on the 'eastern'. I dont think this anecdote is anything but indicative of how much empty space is out there. If its only risk adverse (read content adverse) players using the space to gain isk then I think there could be better ways to balance the game.

    Those renter empires exist not only because of capital power projection from the likes of N3/PL and Goons, but also because all 3 of those entites also use that renter space to hold onto high value nodes like moon goo etc. Little to no local traffic. No local infrastructure. No local market. Near perfect intel streams from local chat etc and tried and tested tactics to get off grid before a hostile band can intercept.

    Deych
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #552 - 2014-10-10 04:24:24 UTC
    Ilyana Nehla wrote:
    So everyone can jump with T1 haulers across new eden via bridge and reship in a stashed Super? mkay.

    JF range was totally okay b4, now its easy again.


    This. Please remove fatigue bonus from everything except JF's
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #553 - 2014-10-10 04:28:49 UTC
    Gorgof Intake wrote:

    I think you answered your own question there. I started on the 'western' side of the map and finished on the 'eastern'. I dont think this anecdote is anything but indicative of how much empty space is out there. If its only risk adverse (read content adverse) players using the space to gain isk then I think there could be better ways to balance the game.

    Those renter empires exist not only because of capital power projection from the likes of N3/PL and Goons, but also because all 3 of those entites also use that renter space to hold onto high value nodes like moon goo etc. Little to no local traffic. No local infrastructure. No local market. Near perfect intel streams from local chat etc and tried and tested tactics to get off grid before a hostile band can intercept.


    So, the fact that you were able to sail through an area of space whose cowed candor you were complicit in creating is... a reason to remove the fatigue bonus to industrials?

    I'm really struggling to see your point, here.

    Normally I wouldn't call out a specific group of sov havers because of something like this, but you were the one who attributed my lack of reading comprehension to the entire CFC, so it seemed like it fit with the current level of discourse.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Gorgof Intake
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #554 - 2014-10-10 04:34:07 UTC
    Dirk MacGirk wrote:
    Gorgof Intake wrote:


    Grath is spot on. Greyscale, I ask you a simple question here. Do you think this will change the current status quo of logistics in Eve? Does reeling back capital projection alone promote content in nullsec without also finally cutting the umbilical cord to Jita nullsec currently relies on? Its a bit of a post, but if you could take the time to read it, I'd appreciate it.

    1. At the moment, there is little to no point in me sourcing, producing or converting nullsec materials locally. It's far more time and energy efficient to continue to import and export out of Jita through a JF cyno chain.

    2. Alliance mates who run moon goo POS networks across 6 different regions maintain those POS with relative ease through a similar JF network, importing and exporting out of Jita. The logistics capability to import a large proportion of a major powerbloc's war materiel needs as well as then exporting out a heafty chunk of the wealth of nullsec moon goo is done by less than a dozen players, in relative safety and with no real need of support from our alliance mates.

    3. Our greatest threat comes from being ganked moving our goo through several high sec jumps to Jita. At no point throughout the extraction process from null sec are we currently at threat. The process takes about 40min total to complete.

    4. Our enemies use similar processes and there is therefore no reasonable way for us to disrupt their industrial capability or harass their war logistics through asymmetric warfare or conducting raids through their territory.


    Your original changes would have forced a complete rethink on this. We were in the process of going back to the drawing board on how to completely revolutionise our organisation. Everything from localised production, getting more people involved with logistics, communal sharing of corporation JFs, assigning responsibility for FCs to perfect raiding and blockading theories, hell, even looking at recruitment of carebears to prop up the corps pvp-centric demographic was on the table.


    Well thought out and something that I think is the future of the game as CCP moves through its development cycle. But let me ask you a question: What is stopping you from moving forward and getting ahead of the curve? Why wait until CCP forces your hand? So many of the things you were planning on doing can still be done. Get those non-PVP players to come join you and start contributing effort locally. Why wait when you can be the forerunner. It's not as if any of those ideas will put you at a disadvantage, even if others maintain the status quo.



    Nothing is stopping an entity from establishing a localised market in Nullsec apart from the fact that it is less efficient to do so than to simply import in from Jita. I have been involved in the supply, co-ordination and development of Null-Sec entities since 2006. Using a JF to import in product from Jita and then export out Moon goo is the most cost and time efficient method of sustaining an alliance in Null.

    Take fuel blocks as an example. They are quite large and bulky to move. They provide some of the worst isk/m3 value for a JF pilot. Localised production is viable in Null. You have all the necessary ingredients. It is easier and more efficient to import in that product from Jita and fuel a tower and then export out the goo than it is to produce locally.

    Take a battleship fleet doctrine. Probably the bulkiest doctrines Nullsec alliances roll with. Hardest to supply due to size. Still far more efficient for me to move this product from Jita, along with purchased fittings and then put up contracts on the frontlines for players to purchase. From production right through to point of sale the risk to the product is minimal. The player buying the ship might have a ratting alt but very, very rarely is that at threat to roaming pvpers. I have little to no risk as I hop from cyno station to cyno station out to the front lines.

    Why would I bother taking extra time, extra effort and extra crap dealing with putting up local buy orders and dealing with renters selling direct to me or having industrialists in my corp when I can do it all within 30min and logging in 3 cyno alts?

    Nullsec logistics is relatively safe, profitable and easy.
    Gorgof Intake
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #555 - 2014-10-10 04:36:10 UTC
    Querns wrote:
    Gorgof Intake wrote:

    I think you answered your own question there. I started on the 'western' side of the map and finished on the 'eastern'. I dont think this anecdote is anything but indicative of how much empty space is out there. If its only risk adverse (read content adverse) players using the space to gain isk then I think there could be better ways to balance the game.

    Those renter empires exist not only because of capital power projection from the likes of N3/PL and Goons, but also because all 3 of those entites also use that renter space to hold onto high value nodes like moon goo etc. Little to no local traffic. No local infrastructure. No local market. Near perfect intel streams from local chat etc and tried and tested tactics to get off grid before a hostile band can intercept.


    So, the fact that you were able to sail through an area of space whose cowed candor you were complicit in creating is... a reason to remove the fatigue bonus to industrials?

    I'm really struggling to see your point, here.

    Normally I wouldn't call out a specific group of sov havers because of something like this, but you were the one who attributed my lack of reading comprehension to the entire CFC, so it seemed like it fit with the current level of discourse.


    Careful with that thesaurus. You might hurt yourself.
    cecil b d'milf
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #556 - 2014-10-10 04:38:21 UTC
    CCP were under the impression they controlled the game... Goons just informed them otherwise Lol

    CFC... too big to fail.
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #557 - 2014-10-10 04:42:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
    Gorgof Intake wrote:
    Careful with that thesaurus. You might hurt yourself.

    D'aww, shucks. You're making me blush. :kimchi:

    e: this is :kimchi: http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/kimchi.gif

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Burneddi
    Avanto
    Hole Control
    #558 - 2014-10-10 04:42:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
  • We're going to bump the max range of black ops ships up slightly to 8LY, and likewise give them a ~50% fatigue bonus.
    • I feel that this isn't really enough to make the changes not hit blops too hard. In fact, due to their intended (and practical) usage, I feel no number tweak to the fatigue system will solve the issues that lie with them.

    I'm sure this has been proposed before, but how about a system that lets blops jump freely in a certain range of their first jump, but if they move further than that they start incurring fatigue? Of course such a system would be a bit more complicated than the fatigue system, and might be difficult to implement (hopefully not, though), but just putting it out there anyway.

    It could for instance work like, when you first jump in a blops with no timers of any kind, your origin system gets saved and you get a timer, and the origin system is associated with this timer. This timer would increase like jump fatigue but with a percentual reduction (eg. 80%), and cool down just like jump fatigue. It should also probably be capped at some reasonably low maximum value, such as a day or two of cooling down.

    You may perform as many jumps as you desire without getting a cooldown, so long as you stay within a certain distance (in lightyears) from your origin system, something 15-20 LY would probably be a good range. The timer described above would be the time you're "rooted" to this origin system, and would increase the more jumps you do within the radius.

    If you jump out of range from the origin system or use a non-blackops jump drive, your origin timer gets converted into the standard fatigue timer, you get a jump cooldown based on that timer, and for as long as you have regular fatigue you will not be able to get the origin timer and its bonuses again.
    Dirk MacGirk
    Specter Syndicate
    #559 - 2014-10-10 04:43:40 UTC
    Gorgof Intake wrote:
    KayleInara wrote:
    Grath Telkin wrote:

    From the bowels of Dek to empire and back every day with no penalty at all, every day, in T1 haulers, still faster than ceptors


    I'm pretty sure that the penalty for taking a T1 hauler from the bowels of Dek to empire and back is that you never actually get there due to your T1 hauler getting exploded somewhere along the way.


    Two weeks ago I JC'd a cyno alt to an old JC I had down in Delve from when I was last down there 6 mths or more ago. I put it in a t1 hauler with a cyno still on it, full of expanded cargo hold lows. I set its autopilot through nullsec all the way to a station in Cobalt Edge- 90 odd jumps or something like that. I hit autopilot and went to work. Was going to be interesting to see how far it got before it was podded.

    I came home to find it sitting there off station unable to dock. I forgot it had been kicked from corp and was in a noob corp. So in other words, Null Sec is currently that empty and devoid of content that one can autopilot a t1 hauler 90jumps from Delve to Cobalt Edge through the late Euro and the entire US prime and come back to it in the middle of the AUtz and find it not destroyed. It had taken armor dmg so I imagine that the worst that had happened to it was rat spawns had nibbled on it as it slowboated towards a gate.




    So you're saying you autopiloted through how many Eastern regions held by the passive (logged off) oversight of N3PL and filled with renters who probably docked up or logged off every time your T1 hauler alt slowboated his way deeper and deeper into BOTland? Fascinating. I'm not sure the jump freighter change has much of anything to do with that.
    Inslander Wessette
    Unleashed' Fury
    The Initiative.
    #560 - 2014-10-10 04:51:31 UTC
    Querns wrote:
    Andrea Keuvo wrote:
    CCP Greyscale wrote:


  • All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.


    • You do realize that this will be horribly abused to quickly move capital pilot clones and will undo a lot of the positive aspects of the changes you are making right?

    This is not true. Interceptors are much faster over the distances you're worried about.


    Interceptor's cant carry as much as T1 haulers or as easily trainable than a T1 hauler. which is like 30 min ?