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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#481 - 2014-10-10 01:59:17 UTC
Lallante wrote:
I still wonder if Greyscale got forced to make this JF change by someone higher up in CCP. It really doesnt fit with the rest of his vision at all and does substantially reduce the impact of the changes taken as a whole. In some of his replies he sounds pretty remorseful at having to compromise on this.


It does fit with his vision, because if he and they follow through on their vision this will be a temporary reversal. But what it does tell you is that he jumped his time frame.
Kiwinoob
Perkone
Caldari State
#482 - 2014-10-10 02:00:35 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Jump freighter max range will be bumped up to 10LY, and they will keep the 90% fatigue-distance reduction. This represents a slight range reduction compared to TQ, so some cynos will need to be repositioned, but otherwise leaves them largely alone. Note that, because ranges multiply together for fatigue purposes, one 10LY jump is *substantially* less fatiguing (multiply by 11) than two 5LY jumps (multiply by 36).


This is probably too far the other way now. Better to start with a slightly bigger nerf (8LY?) then ease back if it turns out to be too much.

If you do this then decide you do actually want to reduce it further I foresee many forum posts.

Devs are nothing more than machines that turn coffee into code. The quality of the code is inversly proportional to the quality of the coffee.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#483 - 2014-10-10 02:02:47 UTC
Querns wrote:
El Deuce wrote:
Who wants to design the first fleet comp that'll fit inside a t1 hauler repackaged?

If it's a Deep Space Transport (and you have Transport Ships 5, I think,) you can fit a packaged battleship inside its fleet hangar with about 10k to spare for modules and ammo.

Nevermind that they align and warp like pigs.


You can fit a T3 + fittings in pretty much any t1 industrial, including the fast ones. You'll be able to get your Ishtar into anything with equal or greater capacity than a badger. Just make sure you scout the gate.
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#484 - 2014-10-10 02:08:07 UTC
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Querns wrote:


Get some actual math on JB wreathes vs interceptors and maybe this conversation has merit. Even still, interceptors are a sight safer.


Here's some math for you:

Right now people travel via jump bridges because they are the fastest most efficient way to move around their empire. This change would have added choice to that, they wouldn't have been the fastest but they'd been the safest.

Now, 30 minutes of skill training puts bridges right back as the best possible means of travel.

You have zero need of math to see that a ship that has to take gates, even a fast aligning frigate thats bubble immune, is slower than a pos that shoots you across a region and lands you in the lowsec outgate system.

Actually, I do. :sun:

Okay, so it turns out the math is pretty easy if you have the power of GTS.

WHY THE THEORY OF TRAVEL INDUSTRIAL POWER PROJECTION IS BASICALLY BULLCRAP


So to standardize the route (and keep it firmly in grr goons territory) we are going to use YA0 to F2O as our route. It covers a pretty good portion of the map.

CONTESTANT ONE: THE CRUSADER

Here's the route a crusader takes. Note that it might be a slightly larger number of gates due to GTS's feature for optimizing for warp distance at the cost of using more gates.

http://i.imgur.com/ahBf9Iq.png

Down at the bottom we see it's 49 jumps, taking 30 minutes. Note that GTS does not allow you to use implants or rigs to increase your warp speed, so this is a bog-standard, unfit interceptor.

CONTESTANT TWO: THE TRAVEL FIT WREATHE

Now, using our jump bridge network, a wreathe spends 16 minutes warping, but it has to take NINE jump bridges. Since you can't "blitz" this (the maximum number of jumps you can perform is six before your fatigue starts making your cooldown longer than five minutes,) this means that you spend a minimum of 45 minutes waiting for your fatigue to wear off. This means the wreathes take 1 hour to complete the same route.

I dunno about you, but I'll take half the time and immune to bubbles any day.


Last time I checked you couldnt fit a packed megathron in the cargo bay of your interceptor.

WTB : An image in my signature
Kiwinoob
Perkone
Caldari State
#485 - 2014-10-10 02:08:20 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
You can fit a T3 + fittings in pretty much any t1 industrial, including the fast ones. You'll be able to get your Ishtar into anything with equal or greater capacity than a badger. Just make sure you scout the gate.


Should be fun watching the killmails of all the T1 indy's with T3's in the hold :)

Devs are nothing more than machines that turn coffee into code. The quality of the code is inversly proportional to the quality of the coffee.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#486 - 2014-10-10 02:09:03 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Way to cave to the whining, now because you can have 9-10 jump clones around places and since you've made it even EASIER to move bulk freight around your collected power projection changes amount to ****, existing alliances will now be completely entrenched until you change the rest of sov, so instead of fixing the stagnation of 0.0, you're making it worse.

How can you screw this up so bad when you had it, you were so close, then Baaaw its not fair that EVERYBODY has to take gates so you trash all the progress you'd made and basically pitch underhanded.

"Let Down" doesn't begin to describe my reaction to reading this bullshit.

EDIT: And if you're so incredibly worried about Stain, how about just adding a gate to the game that connects stain to either NPC Delve or lowsec Aridia, (Venal needs this same gate) and then all your NPC sec would be easier access and you wouldn't need to soft hand these changes that the game needs.

I'm right behind you
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#487 - 2014-10-10 02:11:06 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


We would like nullsec to transition to a new status quo over time in as orderly a manner as possible, and maintaining as much of its current population as possible (or increasing it, obviously), while still actually achieving the new status quo. We're of the opinion that if we push the 5LY range through now, we'll lose a lot of nullsec players while they try to reach a new equilibrium, and it's possible that it would significantly reduce the carrying capacity of nullsec overall, which is not an outcome we'd be happy with.



Based on the proposed changes, it would not seem like any of the issues related to this thought process were even considered before the devblog was released. You can't tell me it took the player base, the CSM or even Manny to determine that there might be tangential consequences related to these changes that would affect the broad markets or the carrying capacity of nullsec as it currently exists.
The only thing he underestimated were the amount of null bear tears. That is the only reason the changes aren't being implemented right now.


The changes that needed to be made now are being made now. Nerfing "force projection" into the turf. That was the big issue. JF's were not a significant part of that equation compared to capitals, titan bridges, and jump bridges. The time will come for JF's when they get their vision together and closer to deployment, JF's will get their due.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#488 - 2014-10-10 02:12:19 UTC
Kossaw wrote:

Last time I checked you couldnt fit a packed megathron in the cargo bay of your interceptor.

You can't fit one in a Wreathe either -- you need a DST to do that. Which, I hasten to add, aligns a lot slower, and has one less rig for boosting warp speed.

Also, why would I do this when I can just JF the materiel to my forward operating base beforehand? Thank you, 10LY range!

e: trimming quotes

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Kiwinoob
Perkone
Caldari State
#489 - 2014-10-10 02:13:03 UTC
Alundil wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Way to cave to the whining, now because you can have 9-10 jump clones around places and since you've made it even EASIER to move bulk freight around your collected power projection changes amount to ****, existing alliances will now be completely entrenched until you change the rest of sov, so instead of fixing the stagnation of 0.0, you're making it worse.

How can you screw this up so bad when you had it, you were so close, then Baaaw its not fair that EVERYBODY has to take gates so you trash all the progress you'd made and basically pitch underhanded.

"Let Down" doesn't begin to describe my reaction to reading this bullshit.

EDIT: And if you're so incredibly worried about Stain, how about just adding a gate to the game that connects stain to either NPC Delve or lowsec Aridia, (Venal needs this same gate) and then all your NPC sec would be easier access and you wouldn't need to soft hand these changes that the game needs.



I think you miss the point. Not too many people are worried about JF fleets hot dropping all over the galaxy.

Devs are nothing more than machines that turn coffee into code. The quality of the code is inversly proportional to the quality of the coffee.
Maddaxe Illat
Kerberos Inc.
#490 - 2014-10-10 02:13:53 UTC
I was ok with the nerf to combat jump ship. But thank you very much for giveing the JFS 10 lys Twisted
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#491 - 2014-10-10 02:15:19 UTC
Kiwinoob wrote:
Milton Middleson wrote:
You can fit a T3 + fittings in pretty much any t1 industrial, including the fast ones. You'll be able to get your Ishtar into anything with equal or greater capacity than a badger. Just make sure you scout the gate.


Should be fun watching the killmails of all the T1 indy's with T3's in the hold :)


Scouting is hard.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#492 - 2014-10-10 02:19:59 UTC
Querns wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Not entirely. I can still think of ways to abuse this. For instance you can quickly project a very large sub capital fleet across a much wider expanse of the galaxy by using T1 freighters, Orcas or even DSTs. With the 90% fatigue, and considering you can do 6 jumps without any meaningful fatigue, that means you can very easily and quickly relocate a very large fleet in a radius of 30 light years. Much more than that if you start waiting out the cooldown.

With this system I can easily envision large entities setting up rapid response sub capital fleets such as these which can be once again projected to anywhere in the galaxy at very short notice.

The fatigue is still pretty meaningful. A six jump blitz takes 15 minutes to execute, and leaves you with 77 minutes of fatigue to manage afterwards.

E: This also doesn't cover the travel time between jump bridges.


Despite your 'worst case scenario, a ceptor will still be slower than a hauler for things like, going say from 6VDT to Hophib, and that will be a fairly constant.

From the bowels of Dek to empire and back every day with no penalty at all, every day, in T1 haulers, still faster than ceptors

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#493 - 2014-10-10 02:21:33 UTC
Querns wrote:
You can't fit one in a Wreathe either -- you need a DST to do that. Which, I hasten to add, aligns a lot slower, and has one less rig for boosting warp speed.

Assuming the Wreathe is fit for max capacity, I wouldn't call the difference between 7.5s and 5.8s "a lot slower" to align.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#494 - 2014-10-10 02:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Grath Telkin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Not entirely. I can still think of ways to abuse this. For instance you can quickly project a very large sub capital fleet across a much wider expanse of the galaxy by using T1 freighters, Orcas or even DSTs. With the 90% fatigue, and considering you can do 6 jumps without any meaningful fatigue, that means you can very easily and quickly relocate a very large fleet in a radius of 30 light years. Much more than that if you start waiting out the cooldown.

With this system I can easily envision large entities setting up rapid response sub capital fleets such as these which can be once again projected to anywhere in the galaxy at very short notice.

The fatigue is still pretty meaningful. A six jump blitz takes 15 minutes to execute, and leaves you with 77 minutes of fatigue to manage afterwards.

E: This also doesn't cover the travel time between jump bridges.


Despite your 'worst case scenario, a ceptor will still be slower than a hauler for things like, going say from 6VDT to Hophib, and that will be a fairly constant.

From the bowels of Dek to empire and back every day with no penalty at all, every day, in T1 haulers, still faster than ceptors

This example doesn't work either -- it takes 2 JBs to get to hophib with our current network and 5m of flight time (15m) and 9m38s by interceptor.

:shobon:

e: WHOOPS had GTS set to wreathe for the no-jb part, actual time drops from 13m to 9m38s

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#495 - 2014-10-10 02:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Not entirely. I can still think of ways to abuse this. For instance you can quickly project a very large sub capital fleet across a much wider expanse of the galaxy by using T1 freighters, Orcas or even DSTs. With the 90% fatigue, and considering you can do 6 jumps without any meaningful fatigue, that means you can very easily and quickly relocate a very large fleet in a radius of 30 light years. Much more than that if you start waiting out the cooldown.

With this system I can easily envision large entities setting up rapid response sub capital fleets such as these which can be once again projected to anywhere in the galaxy at very short notice.

The fatigue is still pretty meaningful. A six jump blitz takes 15 minutes to execute, and leaves you with 77 minutes of fatigue to manage afterwards.

E: This also doesn't cover the travel time between jump bridges.


Despite your 'worst case scenario, a ceptor will still be slower than a hauler for things like, going say from 6VDT to Hophib, and that will be a fairly constant.

From the bowels of Dek to empire and back every day with no penalty at all, every day, in T1 haulers, still faster than ceptors

This example doesn't work either -- it takes 2 JBs to get to hophib with our current network and 5m of flight time (15m) and 9m38s by interceptor.

:shobon:

e: WHOOPS had GTS set to wreathe for the no-jb part, actual time drops from 13m to 9m38s


2 jbs, 1.5 minutes for the first, then take the second, i'm not sure where you get your numbers

EDIT: I suddenly think one of the two of us doesn't understand what that cooldown reduction does to T1 haulers and i think its you.

if you had to do 2 jbs, you would jump, wait 1.5 minutes, and jump again.

Not 5 minutes.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#496 - 2014-10-10 02:26:05 UTC
I mean sure we could reroute the network to do 6VDT -> D4KU, but two things:

A) Why would we do that, Hophib is not very useful to us
2) That is one jump bridge, an interceptor can suck that up with not much problem

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Chigiku
DDo Squad Gaming
#497 - 2014-10-10 02:26:47 UTC
Too bad was expecting some big change to industry as it was supposed to be after Crius, More manufacturing in Nullsec and all.
Seems like it will still be buying everything in jita, in the end :x
Hope the power projection nerf will make nullsec less stagnant!
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#498 - 2014-10-10 02:31:26 UTC
Yea so ever point that the Goon Logistics guys have made is moot if they think you wait 5 minutes after a jump bridge jump in a hauler.

It would appear that either me or them is tragically wrong about this 90% reduction and all of the things it applies to.


IF they're right and its 5 minutes after a jump then ok not too bad people will probably still take gates.

IF I'm right then everything is screwed

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#499 - 2014-10-10 02:31:44 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

2 jbs, 1.5 minutes for the first, then take the second, i'm not sure where you get your numbers

EDIT: I suddenly think one of the two of us doesn't understand what that cooldown reduction does to T1 haulers and i think its you.

if you had to do 2 jbs, you would jump, wait 1.5 minutes, and jump again.

Not 5 minutes.

Your assumption is that you would always jump as soon as your cooldown is off, which is BAD NEWS BEARS for your fatigue.

Your example is Hophib. I don't actually know why you chose it, but I'm guessing it's so you can bridge through lowsec to get to Delve.

You need an additional two bridges to catch before you get to Sahkt from Hophib. That's another 2j, which puts you at 4. Your fatigue is already at 38 minutes to slough off, and you haven't even gotten to Delve yet.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#500 - 2014-10-10 02:33:19 UTC
CCP Greyscale , CCP Seagull



Hello I am talking to you. You do realize people are now up in arms because a power projection nerf that doesn't hit everything is worthless. These special snowflakes that have slipped past the full scorn of the nerfbat will be abused beyond belief. If you do not think so I think you are gravely naive. With that said I am personally ok with them because I BELEIVE that the changes are only temporary till you get further along the roadmap. I really think you all have a well thought out plan and people havn't begun to see how things you have changed in the past year fit into the roadmap.


However I encourage you to please be more forthcoming on the roadmap. Let players know whats in the pipe. You don't have to give specifics or exact release dates "Work In Progress". Forgive me for pointing out that we as Eve players have been told so many times throughout the years that " we CCP will get to it". Now I think you are doing wonderful and have earned back most of my confidence in CCP. However , I am not sure the same can be said for a large part of the community. Things like Hilmars "players don't know best" or "18 months" spring to mind.


TL ; DR

Step up and Communicate.


♥ Manny

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny