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Player Owned Customs Offices: Math, Markets and Design Problems

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Kurumia
Perkone
Caldari State
#301 - 2011-12-12 15:06:18 UTC
Mishatola wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:
You may accuse us of many things, but one thing we are not guilty of is not reading this thread!

I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income.

Regarding the taxation topic itself. I have called a meeting with CCP:s economist to go through the issues raised.

Best regards
Omen


Right now they ARE valid for small corporations IF they use the planets themselves, and use the POCO's to deny anybody else;s use of the planet... to prevent depletion issues.

However, is that all you want? Or is your goal to make it so small corps (or any size for that matter) can provide POCOs as a service to others? If so then work needs to be done.
I think I've followed all your posts and i'm still unclear on your goals in this area.

edit:
If you removed the planet depletion mechanic, than at least a corp would not be harmed by letting people use their POCO. (it being understood that the only reason it is there is because the corps members have colonies on the planet, given the current tax situation).


This is exactly the situation I am currently contemplating. I have about 15 PI operations all in one planetary system, and got by fine just making pickups at odd times. Now the small Corp living there have replaced all the Interbus with POCOs and have set the tax rate to something like 100%. Now I either have to relocate everything, and they lose out on what they could have made off me in taxes.... Or I turn ugly and just change all my operations to cause maximum depletions on every planet.. If I switch to a wasteful depletions mode, I can screw over the planets for them also.

On the other hand if there were no depletions, then the corp would benefit by setting a more reasonable tax rate which can only make them more Isk.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#302 - 2011-12-12 15:19:54 UTC
Are you sure they are using the planets themselves? Some people are setting up their offices at very high tax to bait fights. Can't say whether it will work, as it's not that hard to just move to a more reasonable system.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Droxlyn
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#303 - 2011-12-12 15:40:25 UTC
Kurumia wrote:

This is exactly the situation I am currently contemplating. I have about 15 PI operations all in one planetary system, and got by fine just making pickups at odd times. Now the small Corp living there have replaced all the Interbus with POCOs and have set the tax rate to something like 100%. Now I either have to relocate everything, and they lose out on what they could have made off me in taxes.... Or I turn ugly and just change all my operations to cause maximum depletions on every planet.. If I switch to a wasteful depletions mode, I can screw over the planets for them also.

On the other hand if there were no depletions, then the corp would benefit by setting a more reasonable tax rate which can only make them more Isk.


Inaro is a 0.8 high-sec system 4 jumps from Jita and 5 jumps from Amarr. It has 4 barren planets and 2 temperate planets. The tax rate is 10%. It is pretty sweet for factories.
Kurumia
Perkone
Caldari State
#304 - 2011-12-12 15:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kurumia
Yes, I searched, and the planetary operations of some corp members are there. Even better it is usually pretty clear exactly which resources they have set up for extraction. Thus it almost behooves me to switch over some of my operations for extraction only right on top of their extraction. But I am not totally sure if they will get the point.

Also, I think the original purpose of setting the 100% tax rate is to get rid of all the riff-raff and carebears. Perhaps I should look for a world that is not quite so ideal, but the problem with moving is that there are never any guarantees on any planet, and the costs of relocation will be huge.
Kurumia
Perkone
Caldari State
#305 - 2011-12-12 15:46:19 UTC
Droxlyn wrote:
Kurumia wrote:

This is exactly the situation I am currently contemplating. I have about 15 PI operations all in one planetary system, and got by fine just making pickups at odd times. Now the small Corp living there have replaced all the Interbus with POCOs and have set the tax rate to something like 100%. Now I either have to relocate everything, and they lose out on what they could have made off me in taxes.... Or I turn ugly and just change all my operations to cause maximum depletions on every planet.. If I switch to a wasteful depletions mode, I can screw over the planets for them also.

On the other hand if there were no depletions, then the corp would benefit by setting a more reasonable tax rate which can only make them more Isk.


Inaro is a 0.8 high-sec system 4 jumps from Jita and 5 jumps from Amarr. It has 4 barren planets and 2 temperate planets. The tax rate is 10%. It is pretty sweet for factories.


I have a few high sec operations also, but when making an end product like Rocket fuel, Enriched Uranium, or Coolant, I can make approximately 4 times as much on a nice null-sec planet compared to a high sec planet. So I really need to find a way past my current bad situation. Or I am forced to find other planets somewhere else that are just as nice, but then face the same possibility of 100% taxes all over again.
Mitchel Rei
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#306 - 2011-12-13 05:53:48 UTC
Kurumia wrote:


Now the small Corp living there have replaced all the Interbus with POCOs and have set the tax rate to something like 100%.


Have you tried opening negotiations for a lower tax rate? I would propose a flat fee per month for gauranteed reasonable rate. The lease provides opportunity and the tariff provides the revenue stream. At least talk to them first.

- MR
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#307 - 2011-12-13 06:54:06 UTC
Mitchel Rei wrote:
Kurumia wrote:


Now the small Corp living there have replaced all the Interbus with POCOs and have set the tax rate to something like 100%.


Have you tried opening negotiations for a lower tax rate? I would propose a flat fee per month for gauranteed reasonable rate. The lease provides opportunity and the tariff provides the revenue stream. At least talk to them first.

- MR


Another alternative: You know these new POCO's are destructible, right? So go destroy them and put up your own.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Nyrak
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#308 - 2011-12-13 16:44:58 UTC
Side note curiousity:

Does the owner of a POCO see the items of another user that passes through the CO or just get a tax notification when items are charged either through export or import?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#309 - 2011-12-13 20:46:08 UTC
Nyrak wrote:
Side note curiousity:

Does the owner of a POCO see the items of another user that passes through the CO or just get a tax notification when items are charged either through export or import?


We spy on all your Sekrits






....Isky tax numbers only, I'm sad to say.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#310 - 2011-12-13 23:42:28 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


pmchem is the Good Goon Faerie.Shocked



Does that mean he comes out of a bottle of absinthe? If so, that would explain how goons seem to have such power at CCP, what with all the devs getting hammered and coming up with new features....
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#311 - 2011-12-14 01:00:11 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


pmchem is the Good Goon Faerie.Shocked



Does that mean he comes out of a bottle of absinthe? If so, that would explain how goons seem to have such power at CCP, what with all the devs getting hammered and coming up with new features....


Nah that's the Green Goon Fairy, hard to say who that is, but I'd lay odds on some of the WInoDOTers.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#312 - 2011-12-14 02:04:49 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Does that mean he comes out of a bottle of absinthe? If so, that would explain how goons seem to have such power at CCP, what with all the devs getting hammered and coming up with new features....

I love reading your tinfoil posts. They're so ... tinfoily. :3

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
LordAssasin
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#313 - 2011-12-14 15:28:18 UTC
Kurumia wrote:
Mishatola wrote:
CCP Omen wrote:
You may accuse us of many things, but one thing we are not guilty of is not reading this thread!

I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income.

Regarding the taxation topic itself. I have called a meeting with CCP:s economist to go through the issues raised.

Best regards
Omen


Right now they ARE valid for small corporations IF they use the planets themselves, and use the POCO's to deny anybody else;s use of the planet... to prevent depletion issues.

However, is that all you want? Or is your goal to make it so small corps (or any size for that matter) can provide POCOs as a service to others? If so then work needs to be done.
I think I've followed all your posts and i'm still unclear on your goals in this area.

edit:
If you removed the planet depletion mechanic, than at least a corp would not be harmed by letting people use their POCO. (it being understood that the only reason it is there is because the corps members have colonies on the planet, given the current tax situation).


This is exactly the situation I am currently contemplating. I have about 15 PI operations all in one planetary system, and got by fine just making pickups at odd times. Now the small Corp living there have replaced all the Interbus with POCOs and have set the tax rate to something like 100%. Now I either have to relocate everything, and they lose out on what they could have made off me in taxes.... Or I turn ugly and just change all my operations to cause maximum depletions on every planet.. If I switch to a wasteful depletions mode, I can screw over the planets for them also.

On the other hand if there were no depletions, then the corp would benefit by setting a more reasonable tax rate which can only make them more Isk.

I dont know if one person even with 3 chars can deplete a plannet, i've myself whached how rates in the same place go down, well it got from 60% full link to 40 in 6 month. and i think it gets old not making isk and just going destructive...plus is not lucrative...i do not know how it will be.
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#314 - 2011-12-14 16:47:54 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:


pmchem is the Good Goon Faerie.Shocked



Does that mean he comes out of a bottle of absinthe? If so, that would explain how goons seem to have such power at CCP, what with all the devs getting hammered and coming up with new features....


I did drink a 5-year old bottle of absinthe when I finished my PhD. So in a sense, that's true.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#315 - 2011-12-14 17:58:07 UTC
pmchem wrote:

I did drink a 5-year old bottle of absinthe when I finished my PhD. So in a sense, that's true.


Gratz Doctah

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Kurumia
Perkone
Caldari State
#316 - 2011-12-15 14:25:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Kurumia
deleted
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#317 - 2011-12-16 19:18:43 UTC
I kind of miss the controversy and panic of 8 pages ago.

GSF is taxing its POCOs to pay for their install and defense and things are working quite well so far. Any special news from highsec or lowsec?

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#318 - 2011-12-16 22:53:34 UTC
I think they've all quit, leaving us to our elevated profits. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#319 - 2011-12-16 23:31:00 UTC
Actually ToR has opened it's servers for people who pre-ordered. Even if they don't unsub, I suspect Eve's servers will be less busy for a month or two.
Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
#320 - 2011-12-17 03:32:10 UTC
pmchem wrote:
I kind of miss the controversy and panic of 8 pages ago.

GSF is taxing its POCOs to pay for their install and defense and things are working quite well so far. Any special news from highsec or lowsec?


Generally the tax rate for the few Low Sec PCO' s is the same as High Sec , 10%. So there is no reason to move from High Sec to Low Sec. The few 1% Tax PCO's are just gank bait. The few Low Sec PI users have either adjusted thier prices or moved back to High Sec when the PCO owner locks them out.

The next step will be for the Null Alliance PCO owners to flood the market with with cheap PI goods so it will no longer be cost effective to do PI even in High.