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Missiles need to be addressed

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Author
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#1 - 2014-09-19 23:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: elitatwo
In order to make this weapon system viable in all sizes for pvp again those explosion radius and velocity attributes need to go!

No,
- it will not be the end of EVE
- it will not break the game
- it will not solve the problems some players created
- turrets have have zero to do with them
- I will not change my mind for any amount of isk or solar systems


Yes,
- it can be quite powerful
- it has counters
- more than one
- I know how the outcome will look like because I have been around for that long
- before those attributes in question came
- some changes to a handful of ships would need to be made
- the benfits will be clear as soon as SiSi gets hit
- you can ask me whatever might concern you
- you can pm me

Specific missile ranges that also need addressing:
- Torpedos need a range increase of at least 100% of the current battleship level (Raven)
- stealth bomber class ships would get cruise missiles instead of torpedos

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2014-09-20 01:04:07 UTC
To clarify, are you asking that every type of missile be able to apply full damage to everything it can hit?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#3 - 2014-09-20 01:39:59 UTC
That is actually not what is going to happen.

Let me take the Drake as an example of a missile boat. Let her also have heavy missiles. Let us assume that we got those attributes removed and we are shooting at shield fitted navy hurricane.

For this example let's imagine the six launchers on the Drake are loaded with mjolnir missiles (used to be thunderbolt) and your launchers are grouped.

Now the Drake fires her first volley* and the navy hurricane has you in her crosshairs at 15km. The volley that the six launchers add up to a total damage of 1100 hp EM damage (rounded guessed value).

Being EVE that it is, the hurricane pilot is experienced in fitting a hurricane and has a medium neut and a rapid light launcher fitted. Of course he cannot stand Drakes and shoots back.

Taking tech 2 fittings into account he will propably have fitted his ship to have an EM resistance of let's say 64%.

Now a little math (Sad sorry), 1100 x (1 - 0.64) = 396.

The combat 'log' will now show that the Drake hits you for 396hp EM damage.

But hold on, why did I babble something about that terrible desicion of the hurricane pilot to fit a rapid launcher instead of another medium neut??

Sounds silly, right?

Imagine that hurricane pilot was indeed knowing what he was doing and that rapid light launcher had defender missiles loaded that he was also shooting.

Defender missiles do not need a target lock to do anything, so you can just press 'F2' to start spamming.

Back to my Drake vs navy hurricane fight example, assume 2 heavy missiles were shot down from the rapid launchers defender missiles which would result in a total damage taken of 261hp EM damage.

Look at that, those pesky heavy missiles do not look so scary as they looked just a minute ago.


By the way,
if you repeat that fight now on SiSi the 'log' of that same fight will show you values in the range of 'heavy missile hits for 96 damage...'

And to answer your question, yes I do want full application all the time.


Take another example how my Drake here will fare against a Taranis with links n such. Let the Taranis be 45km away from the Drake, the Drake in persuit of the Taranis.

The Drake with a meta 3 mwd goes 1000m/s, the Taranis goes about 5200km. If the flight time of heavy missiles do not change they will try to follow and hit the Taranis for 15 seconds (I think, need to look that up).

The Taranis pilot doesn't like his odds here and flies in a straight line away from the Drake. He can warp of, but let's assume he doesn't.
I know the speed of heavy missiles is in the range of 5000m/s (need to look that up too).
Being at that range, my missile first need to accelerate to 5000m/s and as they should fly in the direction of that Taranis.

But as luck will have it, the missiles run out of (flight) time before they ever reach the Taranis and he now realizes that he can just warp away.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2014-09-20 13:17:49 UTC
Well, giving a phoenix upwards of 90k alpha against every target in the game would be...different I suppose.

Now, nobody uses defender missiles because they simply do not work effectively. Nor can you say missiles would be balanced entirely around interceptors being able to outrun them.

If the drake had the taranis at 0, fired caldari navy scourge, which travel at slightly over 6km/s with my skills, then the taranis would be destroyed in a single hit.

Given that no other weapon system completely ignores the size of your targets, why should missiles?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#5 - 2014-09-20 16:55:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
Danika Princip wrote:
Well, giving a phoenix upwards of 90k alpha against every target in the game would be...different I suppose.

Now, nobody uses defender missiles because they simply do not work effectively. Nor can you say missiles would be balanced entirely around interceptors being able to outrun them.

If the drake had the taranis at 0, fired caldari navy scourge, which travel at slightly over 6km/s with my skills, then the taranis would be destroyed in a single hit.

Given that no other weapon system completely ignores the size of your targets, why should missiles?


Tough luck I suppose.

As far as I have seen no Taranis is alone in space and it was a fictional example that this will not be the end of things.

Yep and Moros that haz 100.000 alpha is fine, yes.


Have recently seen a Leviathan that was shooting a few citadel torpedos? You should try dat out, you can speedtank them right now in a super.

Maybe the kids should not use dreadnought class ships to run level 2 missions in lolsec.

I cannot understand that noone else wants the power back that was taken from us. {{Redacted personal attack. -- ISD LackOfFaith}}

I say this is important and I have said so many, many times in the past. This is no different.

Let someone run values if you do not believe me. I know from experience that it will not be as bad as you think it will be.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Iain Cariaba
#6 - 2014-09-20 17:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
elitatwo wrote:
As far as I have seen no Taranis is alone in space and it was a fictional example that this will not be the end of things.

The fact that you have not seen this further shows you haven't been playing for foe as long as that toon has been around. Regardless, the fact that you have not seen this does nothing to reduce its validity as an example.

elitatwo wrote:
Yep and Moros that haz 100.000 alpha is fine, yes.

Yes, it is, because tracking speed means that 100k alpha can't hit anything with even a moderate transversal speed.

elitatwo wrote:
Have recently seen a Leviathan that was shooting a few citadel torpedos? You should try dat out, you can speedtank them right now in a super.

So with your idea, that Leviathan would be able to apply its massive firepower to frigates. Why? Because explosion velocity and explosion radius are the missile form of a gun's tracking speed.

elitatwo wrote:
I cannot understand that noone else wants the power back that was taken from us. {{Redacted personal attack. -- ISD LackOfFaith}}

What you want is not a return of some lost immaginary power that was allegedly taken from you. What you want would make missiles so overpowered that it would be suicide to use anything else in the game. Calling those who don't disagree with you "{{Redacted personal attack. -- ISD LackOfFaith}}" makes about as much sense as trying to put lasers on a Drake. Oh, wait...
Iain Cariaba
#7 - 2014-09-20 17:46:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
elitatwo wrote:
I say this is important and I have said so many, many times in the past. This is no different.

Well, I say the sky is lemon yellow. Guess what, we're both equally correct.

elitatwo wrote:
Let someone run values if you do not believe me. I know from experience that it will not be as bad as you think it will be.

How could you possibly have experience that missiles with no explosion velocity or radius would not be as bad as we think? Where ever you got that experience wasn't on EvE. {{Redacted personal attack. -- ISD LackOfFaith}}
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#8 - 2014-09-20 18:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: elitatwo
Son,
I do not ususally respond to npcs since it is pointless. But I am telling you again that you should be very, very careful what you claim.

I am using missiles since eight hours of what was called the tutorial back then. At my first day I began with 50.000 skillpoints and tried out all weapon systems there were on my gifted Merlin.

Regardless of wether I comment on the 'slight' increase of viewers of eveboard or not that is the reason I still have small autocannons at one.

My two launcher Merlin was what I was looking for.

The day you started, you had more skillpoints than I did at that time.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Iain Cariaba
#9 - 2014-09-20 18:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
elitatwo wrote:
Son,
I do not ususally respond to npcs since it is pointless. But I am telling you again that you should be very, very careful what you claim.

I am using missiles since eigth hours of what was called the tutorial back then. At my first day I began with 50.000 skillpoints and tried out all weapon systems there were on my gifted Merlin.

Regardless of wether I comment on the 'slight' increase of viewers of eveboard or not that is the reason I still have small autocannons at one.

My two launcher Merlin was what I was looking for.

The day you started, you had more skillpoints than I did at that time.

Yep, the fact you are rapidly losing this discussion must bring out the fact that I am between corps at this moment, as if because I temporarily find myself in NPC corp that I am invalid. Funny how no one else in the many threads I have been involved in has pointed that out. Then again, I try not to post drivel about topics I have no knowledge in. You go right ahead and use my time between corps to justify in your own mind that what I say has no value.

That is also twice that you have obliquely implied some sort of threat towards me that I should be careful? So what if I say you are wrong, or say you are not who you claim to be. Am I, in my terrible NPCness, that much of a threat to your immagined forum superiority? Besides, there is not a thing you can do about it.

As for experience with missiles. I played this game for 6 months to learn the system before making this toon, and from minute one was focused in missiles. With the exception of the capital missiles, there is not a missile system in this game I cannot use, and use well due to all missile support skills at 5. I eventually got to the point where I found missiles lacking, and branched out into guns.

Bottom line is this. Because you make the choice to restrict your play options does not make a valid argument for changing the way missiles have worked for at least the last 7 years. {{Redacted personal attack. -- ISD LackOfFaith}}
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#10 - 2014-09-21 03:42:13 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

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Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

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Cleaned up the thread as per the above rules. Please stay civil, constructive, and on-topic. Mature discussions that do not devolve into slap fights are encouraged.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.

Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-09-24 13:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times.

Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets...

Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS.
Dia'Sarbator
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2014-10-09 21:45:33 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times.

Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets...

Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS.



Honestly speaking ... Missles just need a 15 ish % boast in raw dmg across the board for a couple of reasons...

#1 They have a delayed Alpha that needs to be made up for
#2 They never have the ability of applying their full Damage.

15 % ish should bring them a lot closer to where gunnery is.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#13 - 2014-10-09 22:20:59 UTC
Dia'Sarbator wrote:
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
So the two counters to pwnmobile insta-kill Drakes and Ravens are... being in a fast enough interceptor and defenders that barely work even at the best of times.

Yeeeeeeah. Either this is a troll or you really, really haven't thought through how absurdly overpowered this would make cruiser+ missiles. I can already see myself doing absolutely horridly broken things in a Torp Raven with no damage reductions vs smaller targets...

Edit: wait, a torp Raven? Hell no, why bother with that when I could fit cruise and be a 250KM death-sphere to anything smaller than a BS.



Honestly speaking ... Missles just need a 15 ish % boast in raw dmg across the board for a couple of reasons...

#1 They have a delayed Alpha that needs to be made up for
#2 They never have the ability of applying their full Damage.

15 % ish should bring them a lot closer to where gunnery is.


1.) Missiles always hit targets within range.

2.) Missiles can and do apply full damage when shooting appropriately sized targets. A drake applies full damage to another drake, when that drake is appropriately scram webbed. Against a cruiser, the ship usually needs 2x webs.

I'm not opposed to CCP reviewing and tweaking missiles as appropriate, but I trust they have a better understanding of what the appropriate equivalent stats are.

As for the Op... He's a troll, because no self respecting veteran would propose such blatantly absurd changes.

Agatir Solenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-10-10 00:19:18 UTC
I would equate this request up there with asking that all range limitations be taken away from all lasers.
Imuji
Swamphole Holdings
Swamphole
#15 - 2014-10-10 13:27:36 UTC
Honestly,

The only thing I'd like to see changed on missiles is that the missile flight time has been halved, with the missile speed doubled. That way missiles will hit a lot quicker upon firing, but retaining the same range. Perhaps adjust the explosion radius to compensate for the speed, but that's all I think they would really need.
Jenna Olgidar
OutLawed Country Inc.
Outlaw Nation.
#16 - 2014-11-04 14:25:17 UTC
Explosion Radius Mechanic is used because missiles don't miss.
no matter how fast or slow they always hit. unlike the rest of the weapon systems that require a lot more.

If anything with missiles that i would change. I would change reload speed to reflect that of other weapon system. I would remove FOF missile completely from the game. no one will ever use these things. they are the dumbest waste of code. and on second though defender missiles wth is it with these unless someone is firing a rocket at you no one else will fit these. I believe the damage output should be a little higher. depending.

I would like to see Citidal Torpedo do more damage. for as slow and low range that these are they deal the least amount of damage out of all 4 dreadnought classes. there is not an alliance or corporation out there that wont laugh at you if you tell them that you can only fly a Phoenix.

-Olga

So yeah like my post. -Olga

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#17 - 2014-11-04 15:18:27 UTC
Jenna Olgidar wrote:
Explosion Radius Mechanic is used because missiles don't miss.
no matter how fast or slow they always hit. unlike the rest of the weapon systems that require a lot more...


Then it seems to me that you haven't been kited lately in a ham or rocket launcher fitted ship..

And since our CSM members do not seem to care, may I ask the ISD to move this to the "Featues and Ideas" section?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#18 - 2014-11-04 19:25:01 UTC
This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-11-04 21:48:12 UTC
Lallante wrote:
This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002.


It is up there but not close to the worst.

and

No, I won't mention this one to devs unless over beers and laughing

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#20 - 2014-11-04 21:51:24 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Lallante wrote:
This is one of the dumbest suggestions I've ever seen in Eve. And I've been playing since 2002.


It is up there but not close to the worst.

and

No, I won't mention this one to devs unless over beers and laughing

m


I am not here to explain EVE to everyone. Yet I explained numerous times now that this will not break EVE.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

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