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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Dagda Morr
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#101 - 2014-10-09 18:52:24 UTC
Great work CCP, very happy with the proposals now11!
Gwailar
Doomheim
#102 - 2014-10-09 18:52:36 UTC
Thumbs up, CCP.

Good adjustments.
Power projection is still nerfed.
Logi is still alive.

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat
Techno Model
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2014-10-09 18:53:02 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
David Magnus wrote:
These do address some of the bigger concerns, thanks for taking the time to post about these!
Have there been changes to death-clone camping, or did I miss that in a different thread?


Death clone camping is handled by the new medical clone changes that are being implemented right now. The short version is that you'll always be able to intentionally revoke your clone contract somewhere and have it reset to your rookie system.

wait what, where is this


On Nullarbor's computer, currently.

Also, to everyone who was wondering whether or not I listened, I read 4000 freaking posts by myself. Whether or not I agreed with the concerns was an open question, but I hope it was obvious from my posting that I was paying attention!


Lets be totally honest Greyscale, you will never listen to the majority of posters on these forums. CCP does not work that way, its a proven fact after 12 years. What you will listen to is the Marketing and Financial guys at CCP when they start screaming about subscription numbers. Personally, I have 5 accounts that were "utility" cynos and hobojammers that will now be killed off (no point asking for stuff its all been put onto active accounts.) I am a casual pubbie ... and that is 5 accounts dead.

EVE may not be dying, but you are slowly hammering the nails into the coffin lid.
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#104 - 2014-10-09 18:53:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
/facepalm


Cheer up, when the power projection nerf you've been championing for years doesn't work (because power projection is a scape goat and a symptom, not the real issue) and makes things worse, you can now fall back on "well, CCP didn't do it right" instead of re-examining your own beliefs Twisted


They already aren't doing it right, specifically because they are not significantly reducing the ability of alliances to fund themselves with a hidden supply line of Moon Goo, nor their capacity to resupply themselves, endlessly, from highsec.
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#105 - 2014-10-09 18:54:28 UTC
So instead of really nefing nullseclogistics and adding a bit of risk to it, it is now instead of 5 minutes you need 15-25 to run to highsec and 1-3 more cynos. So no change there overall.
I guess crying works if you are in nullsec...
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#106 - 2014-10-09 18:56:11 UTC
Kali Aldard wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

  • All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.
  • We are adding some additional code to allow us to put a bonus on jump portals that reduces fatigue generation for all ships jumping through that portal. This will be applied to Covert Jump Portals, with a value of around 50% (subject to further tuning). This means that all ships using a black ops portal will generate less fatigue.


    • So, industrials will inherently get less fatigue, and covert jump portals will subject ships to less fatigue.

    What kind of fatigue should we expect on a blockade runner jumping through a covert jump portal?



    Once they put up a mirror, I will answer this for you.

    I've been bouncing an idea around in my head that could remove a lot of this whole nightmare but create an even bigger one for us anyway.

    Rather than fatigue, we have to 'lock on' to our cyno and scan res determines how long it takes us to do it. Using our jump drives and the range they have is determined by a long range locking ability. It's a timer just like the one we have now but it's an up front timer, not a back door timer and would go much further in preventing ninja Capitals.
    Jenn aSide
    Soul Machines
    The Initiative.
    #107 - 2014-10-09 18:56:15 UTC
    Polo Marco wrote:
    You know guys, when a horse kicks or bites you don't cut off its hooves or pull its teeth. You modify either the behavior of the horse or the behavior of the person using it. Nullsec sov, politics and combat methods have everything to do with what motivates the users of these ships and not the ships themselves. You hobble the horse, he's not worth his feed so its off to the auction block with him. You give the rider gloves and a shinguard and he never learns how to manage the animal. You are treating the symptoms not the problem.


    Why don't you try this first:


    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5078735#post5078735


    Fixing a clock is easier to do with a screwdriver than a hammer..............


    I don't know about your specific idea (it doesn't seem to take Alt alliances into account for instance), +1 for the above bolded part. Sometimes people think they can change 'the environment' (in this case, specific game mechanics) to change behavior when in fact changing the environment can MAGNIFY the unwanted behaviors in the 1st place. This is why Dominion and later changes (like the Anom nerf) made things worse rather than better.

    (real world example from my own country, we put people in prison to "rehabilitate" them but what we end up with is an UN-rehabilitated super criminal who just graduated from tax payer funded super Crime university lol, if we'd used a more 'community' based approach we might have ended up with a less skilled criminal at least lol).

    The way forward is to look at what makes people tick and give them tools to make them able to tick along IMO.
    Makari Aeron
    Imperial Shipment
    Amarr Empire
    #108 - 2014-10-09 18:56:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Makari Aeron
    Retar Aveymone wrote:
    Makari Aeron wrote:
    These changes, while positive, still allow for the work around of multiple characters. I'll do the douche-y thing of quoting myself in hopes that it gets addressed. Original Post

    this is a really stupid idea nobody will ever use

    why, you ask? because that net of characters is way, way more expensive than just adding a second character + carrier


    Just because it's expensive doesn't mean that it should be discounted. Also funny because I was informed that this work around is already on your GSF wiki *shrug*.

    CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

    CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
    Ong
    Lumberjack Commandos
    #109 - 2014-10-09 18:56:22 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:

    I read 4000 freaking posts by myself


    So you did your job? Erm thanks I guess.....
    PotatoOverdose
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #110 - 2014-10-09 18:56:34 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
    Marlona Sky wrote:
    Maybe these changes will accomplish something to break up the stagnation of null. With this watered down version it is hard to tell.

    I doubt it. The JF nerfs would have hit null like a truck. The carrier/dread/super changes may well end up not being a net negative for existing cap fleets, what with the ability to take some rather long inter-regional gates.

    My bet is people will find caps-jumping-gates to be a neat novelty at first, but things will quickly settle down in a place none too far from the old pre-nerf routine.
    Tam Althor
    Commonwealth Industries
    #111 - 2014-10-09 18:57:13 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Mr Omniblivion wrote:
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Rorquals will stay at 5LY/90%


    Is there a reason that Rorquals don't get the same 10LY range as JFs? Rorquals are used just as much for logistics as JFs, especially because their actual intended use isn't really...useful.


    We didn't think it was sensible to let it keep its drone bonus and have a 10LY range, and at the end of the day the bonus won out. The ship needs a large rework anyway, and we'll revisit all this when that happens :)


    I really can't remember the last time I used drones from my rorq for any other reason than playing with people in corp. I would
    give up the damage bonus for a range bonus in a minute.
    Sygma
    Appetite 4 Destruction
    #112 - 2014-10-09 18:57:40 UTC
    Thank goodness logic prevailed. There was about to be a mass exodus from Curse.
    Gwailar
    Doomheim
    #113 - 2014-10-09 18:58:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwailar
    Shilalasar wrote:
    So instead of really nefing nullseclogistics and adding a bit of risk to it, it is now instead of 5 minutes you need 15-25 to run to highsec and 1-3 more cynos. So no change there overall.
    I guess crying works if you are in nullsec...


    Did you not read what he said?

    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    The ease of nullsec logistics permitted by jump freighters and, to a lesser extent, jump bridge networks is not aligned with where we would like nullsec industry to be.
    It *is*, however, pretty well aligned with where nullsec industry is right now. As we improve the status quo for industry in nullsec, we will want to reevaluate this balance, along with the impact potential changes would have on logistical work for other areas of the game.


    They want industry in null to supply null more than JFs from Jita.
    But right now there is no industry in null, so nerfing JFs to the ground would bring everything to a grinding halt.
    After this first set of changes is implemented, they will make further changes that will boost industry in null while nerfing the ability to ship in all your stuff from Jita.

    Give them some time. Jeez.

    "Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat
    Evelgrivion
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #114 - 2014-10-09 18:58:52 UTC
    Ocih wrote:
    Rather than fatigue, we have to 'lock on' to our cyno and scan res determines how long it takes us to do it. Using our jump drives and the range they have is determined by a long range locking ability. It's a timer just like the one we have now but it's an up front timer, not a back door timer and would go much further in preventing ninja Capitals.


    This would not work as intended; the cooldown timer after each jump is supposed to get worse with each jump; back-door timers are inevitable and necessary. Using them to ninja their way into a fight isn't inherently bad, just the frequency and superiority of that approach.
    SFM Hobb3s
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #115 - 2014-10-09 18:59:15 UTC
    I do wish Phoebe was released as originally planned without these compromises. I guess I'll be crossing my fingers too on this one.

    Donut looks up to CCP and shouts, "Save Us!" Greyscale shoulda looked down and whisphered 'No'.
    Adrie Atticus
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #116 - 2014-10-09 18:59:19 UTC
    Evelgrivion wrote:
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    Marlona Sky wrote:
    /facepalm


    Cheer up, when the power projection nerf you've been championing for years doesn't work (because power projection is a scape goat and a symptom, not the real issue) and makes things worse, you can now fall back on "well, CCP didn't do it right" instead of re-examining your own beliefs Twisted


    They already aren't doing it right, specifically because they are not significantly reducing the ability of alliances to fund themselves with a hidden supply line of Moon Goo, nor their capacity to resupply themselves, endlessly, from highsec.


    Take the moons and stop the resupply freighters. It's a sandbox, not "I might have been rump rummaged from something other people do, please nerf a valid game mechanic because I'm too lazy to change the situation." Hundreds of players are trying to do just that in the coming days, why not join the fun?
    Lyn Fel
    Black Frog Logistics
    Red-Frog
    #117 - 2014-10-09 18:59:28 UTC
    Good.

    It did seem like a pretty bad idea kill nullsec logistics right away based strictly on a vision of a self sufficient nullsec market that is completely unattainable given today's mechanics. Actually adding the framework for nullsec markets to be self sufficient first is for the best. Big smile

    I am still disappointed with the decision to remove the ability to move cyno alts around nullsec without forcing them to be skilled into interceptors. It has the appearance to some as a method to artificially inflate subscription numbers by forcing people to have more cyno capable characters on more alt accounts in order to make up for it.
    Jenn aSide
    Soul Machines
    The Initiative.
    #118 - 2014-10-09 18:59:32 UTC
    Evelgrivion wrote:
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    Marlona Sky wrote:
    /facepalm


    Cheer up, when the power projection nerf you've been championing for years doesn't work (because power projection is a scape goat and a symptom, not the real issue) and makes things worse, you can now fall back on "well, CCP didn't do it right" instead of re-examining your own beliefs Twisted


    They already aren't doing it right, specifically because they are not significantly reducing the ability of alliances to fund themselves with a hidden supply line of Moon Goo, nor their capacity to resupply themselves, endlessly, from highsec.


    As far as the 'hidden supply line', well, to be fair we don't know what they are going to do later on. But +1 on the high sec supply.

    Null sec needs to be made livable (in terms of resource availability and profitability on an individual , ground up level) before anything else happens. To do that, the design team needs to look at ALL of New Eden and how it fits together, not just null (in my layman's opinion of course).

    No one wants to see null sec weened from the high sec teet more than me btw.
    Veskrashen
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #119 - 2014-10-09 18:59:50 UTC
    PotatoOverdose wrote:
    Marlona Sky wrote:
    Maybe these changes will accomplish something to break up the stagnation of null. With this watered down version it is hard to tell.

    I doubt it. The JF nerfs would have hit null like a truck.

    Yeah, really wish they'd kept them in, or at least kept the JF range shorter than BLOPS range. Nullsec logistics is too easy atm.

    We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
    Ilyana Nehla
    Caldari Supply and Armament Inc.
    #120 - 2014-10-09 19:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ilyana Nehla
    So everyone can jump with T1 haulers across new eden via bridge and reship in a stashed Super? mkay.

    JF range was totally okay b4, now its easy again.