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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Author
Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2014-10-09 18:36:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Makari Aeron
These changes, while positive, still allow for the work around of multiple characters. I'll do the douche-y thing of quoting myself in hopes that it gets addressed. Original Post



Makari Aeron wrote:
Upon further research into this topic, I find it impossibly easy for anyone in EVE to bypass this proposed feature. Let me explain.

A player needs to go to his/her staging system. Said staging system is 20ly away, or 4 jumps. Normally, this would take quite some time as Jump Fatigue would kick in for the pilot. However, this pilot has 4 alts (A, B, C, and D) besides the main character. All pilots can fly his/her carrier and has max jump skills. Instead of taking quite a bit of game time and risk getting to the staging system, this pilot simply pre-stages his/her alts in the systems ahead of time using nearly uncatchable interceptors. As such, the carrier gets to the staging system as such:

Quote:
Alt A jumps the carrier to System 1 where it trades it off to alt B. Alt B then waits for the capacitor to recharge and jumps to System 2 where the carrier is passed off to Alt C. Alt C then waits for the capacitor to recharge and jumps to System 3 where Alt D jumps into the carrier and waits for the capacitor to recharge before jumping to System 4 (the staging system) where the Pilot's main is waiting.


As you can see, each character only made one jump thus only imposing one stack of penalties which quickly fades away. You don't even need to be with a large entity in EVE to do this. You just need 2 accounts! Account 1 has the Main, Alt A, and Alt D while Account 2 has Alt A and Alt C. This so-called "power projection nerf" does nothing to squelch the power projection from the large entities, it simply promotes the creation of more active accounts or multi-character training in order to get the same results prior to this patch's implementation (Note: I do not know if this is an intended consequence and I will not speculate on it).

It is also impossible to tie the Jump Fatigue to the ships because the player only has to repackage the ship in order to trick the server into thinking the ship is a generic object. It's why when you repackage ships they lose their name as the meta data is erased.

Instead of going to great lengths to make the game more complicated for everyone when a bypass is simply to throw more ISK or IRL money at the game (Note: I do not know if this is an intended consequence and I will not speculate on it) in order to get an easier result, why not simply increase the "size" of the universe? By this I mean space out each constellation and region farther from each other. Every system in EVE has a absolute XYZ coordinate in the database. Spread out the distance between Regions and possibly even Constellations instead of adding in Jump Fatigue. Sure, this will definitely take a while to do but it will not be easy to bypass. Distances are longer and thus more fuel must be spent. No, it won't fix the absolute problem of power projection, but it will make it harder and more risky. Couple this with the 5ly jump and make it near impossible to cross regions without being close to the Region Gate system and you'll create choke points which increase PvP opportunities.

All in all, I believe that CCP was attempting to do the correct thing here but has failed to map out all of the consequences of this change. Something that the CSM should have been able to catch and report to CCP straight away. Let's hope it simply slipped through the cracks instead of being maliciously ignored. By implementing this newly proposed feature nothing will change. Power projection will stay the same and CCP will have put in quite a bit of work on a well-intentioned feature which makes them look the fool.


Alternatively, you could keep the jump fatigue but also apply it to the ship which jumped. In additon, you would have to make the ship un-repackagable for X time just like with certain Station Containers or Audit Log Containers.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP

Fonac
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2014-10-09 18:37:06 UTC
\O/ yay updates.

First of all, thank you for taking your time to read and reply with feedback, that was very very cool.

1. I still feel the black ops need a smaller fatigue, i realise that they may be used a transportation ship instead of combat, but they have a very high skill requirement, and only a handfull of people can use them.
I've often had to jump several jumps, in order to get to my target, i know i could use gates, and i know that the whole "i'll just jump everywhere fast" mantra has to be nerfed, but still, i'll need to get back aswell. and this will now take hours! (still) Mobility means alot with these kinds of ships.. and even more so, if you use them for pve(which i've done extensively)

2. I actually kinda liked the low range of JF's this ment that 0.0 mining and all the industry that followed, would be viable and needed again. And that those who eventually ventured out and jumped stuff to an outpost, could really make some big isk.
Another little note, is that the fatigue is kinda useless here, since you'll mostly do one jump a day max.
The only real nerf i see here, is for black frog, that does this daily and muliple times a day...

Otherwise everything look good. I look forward to the changes.(ALOT)
MinHui
Angry Angels Constructions
Synergy of Steel
#83 - 2014-10-09 18:37:09 UTC
thx EVE gods..
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2014-10-09 18:38:37 UTC
Makari Aeron wrote:
These changes, while positive, still allow for the work around of multiple characters. I'll do the douche-y thing of quoting myself in hopes that it gets addressed. Original Post

this is a really stupid idea nobody will ever use

why, you ask? because that net of characters is way, way more expensive than just adding a second character + carrier
Dean Wong
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2014-10-09 18:39:07 UTC
Oh great, now I have to resub my account. Ugh

You're still only getting one account resub. Blink
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#86 - 2014-10-09 18:40:30 UTC
On the other hand, now when an alliance needs to deploy, they'll simply JF a couple thousand cruisers to a deployment system and tell the grunts to hoof it to the other side of eve in an inty. So, doesn't shake up the status quo overmuch. Just fewer carriers and dreads involved .... initially.
Marius Noragol
Perkone
Caldari State
#87 - 2014-10-09 18:42:19 UTC
Not sure if I like it.

Logistics would be one thing that would create a lot of content. I was picturing forming fleets to escort a convoi of freighters and other fleets jumping in to gank and kill said freighters.

Would this not mean a lot of new conflict points and everything being always at risk? Something EVE got famous for. Never being save in a happy happy hello kitty world.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#88 - 2014-10-09 18:42:30 UTC
0/10 disappointing. jfs are cancer.
Kire Suahien
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2014-10-09 18:42:45 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
Easy fix: get rid of the drone bonus on the rorq. Increase to 10LY.

Because seriously, who uses it.


Hell to the no, I'm taking my battle-rorq in balls deep come patch and you're not taking my drone bonus. Just use a jump freighter christ.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#90 - 2014-10-09 18:43:08 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Cool. Might also want to check this thread on reddit regarding super carrier projection with ascendancies and hyperspatial accelerators post-phoebe. Keep in mind that those super fits don't give up *too* much ehp given that you can swap the low slots back to combat fit fairly easily.


Supers are really cheap now that people are ragequitting, go nab some and get ready to have fun.

CCP has already done the calculations and it's slower to jump longer distances than use gates and the warp speed changes were included in that.
Free Merchandise
Scorched Earth Solutions
#91 - 2014-10-09 18:43:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Free Merchandise
CCP Greyscale,

Can you offer any insight for what CCP's vision for the role the Rorqual should fill?
I know nothing has been announced so far, but even a vague conceptual idea would be very helpful for much disillusioned Rorqual pilots.

Thanks.
Kallie Rae
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#92 - 2014-10-09 18:44:09 UTC
Titans on sisi now got a max jump range of 7.875 ly, is this correct according to these latest changes?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#93 - 2014-10-09 18:44:46 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Cool. Might also want to check this thread on reddit regarding super carrier projection with ascendancies and hyperspatial accelerators post-phoebe. Keep in mind that those super fits don't give up *too* much ehp given that you can swap the low slots back to combat fit fairly easily.


This is the kind of thing I was talking about in the other thread. It doesn't hurt the 'big boys' (already established, entrenched, rich coalitions) while the 'lesser groups' (necessary for the 'penning up' of null) are put further back as they don't have the same resources to just "emergent gameplay" themselves past CCPs game mechanics lol.

Even if CCP knocks this particular issue down by restricting how capitals refit (and even knock down other issues with modifying how systems are won and lost via the SOV system) the above base concept will still apply. CCP need to apply more care and different (holistic and evidence based) thinking to these problems instead of trying to nerf their way to glory.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#94 - 2014-10-09 18:45:19 UTC
Marius Noragol wrote:
Logistics would be one thing that would create a lot of content. I was picturing forming fleets to escort a convoi of freighters and other fleets jumping in to gank and kill said freighters.

This is likely coming down the pipe, but apparently according to CCP nullsec industry won't be able to cope in the 4 weeks between now and the proposed changes. Fortunately, given the 6 week cycle, CCP can impose any changes they choose in 6 more weeks. Hell, they could even progressively nerf JF range patch by patch - say 10LY now, then 8, then 6.5 and finally 5. That would give folks plenty of time to adjust and allow nullsec industry to ramp up more slowly.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Faltzs
Thundercats
The Initiative.
#95 - 2014-10-09 18:45:24 UTC
"This will be applied to Covert Jump Portals, with a value of around 50% (subject to further tuning). This means that all ships using a black ops portal will generate less fatigue."

New meta covert fit tengu (or other t3) fleet, BO bridge fleet 8ly then refit tengu to fleet fit. +plus have 50% of the fatiuge for doing it?

Also Bomber and recon rebalance soon tm?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#96 - 2014-10-09 18:47:54 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
/facepalm


Cheer up, when the power projection nerf you've been championing for years doesn't work (because power projection is a scape goat and a symptom, not the real issue) and makes things worse, you can now fall back on "well, CCP didn't do it right" instead of re-examining your own beliefs Twisted
Kali Aldard
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2014-10-09 18:48:17 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

  • All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.
  • We are adding some additional code to allow us to put a bonus on jump portals that reduces fatigue generation for all ships jumping through that portal. This will be applied to Covert Jump Portals, with a value of around 50% (subject to further tuning). This means that all ships using a black ops portal will generate less fatigue.


  • So, industrials will inherently get less fatigue, and covert jump portals will subject ships to less fatigue.

    What kind of fatigue should we expect on a blockade runner jumping through a covert jump portal?
    Marlona Sky
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #98 - 2014-10-09 18:50:24 UTC
    Maybe these changes will accomplish something to break up the stagnation of null. With this watered down version it is hard to tell.
    Soldarius
    Dreddit
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #99 - 2014-10-09 18:50:41 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Also, to everyone who was wondering whether or not I listened, I read 4000 freaking posts by myself. Whether or not I agreed with the concerns was an open question, but I hope it was obvious from my posting that I was paying attention!


    I have no doubt that you listen to player feedback. I've seen the results myself. And anyone that says otherwise is just an ugly troll that should get back under his bridge.

    (You see what I did there?)

    Thank you, CCP Greyscale.

    http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

    twit brent
    Never Not AFK
    #100 - 2014-10-09 18:50:57 UTC
    Anything going to happen for super pilots?

    hint hint lets us dock please, i think its time!