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Balancing active income (Attached with jump drive patch)

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Suzuka A1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2014-10-08 23:20:59 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Mohamad Transporte wrote:
we need to differentiate between whats good for the game and whats bad regardless of how many whine threads would be created... healthy stuff requires bold decisions


For that level of incursion income you need to grind in a manner that burns you out psychologically. For that level or L3/4 income, you need to grind as well. In contrast, in 00 you warp in your carrier to an anom and have it sit there. I fail to see the proportion.


Not everyone in null rats in a carrier and since the warp mechanics revamp even less do. Most people in the CFC (to my knowledge) think you deserve to die if you are carrier ratting these days.

Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H  What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626
Suzuka A1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2014-10-08 23:29:20 UTC
I believe everyone needs to keep in mind that once the jump range nerf is implemented moving items and ships (specifically ships) to null sec will become more expensive (on top of the price increase from the increased jump fuel usage).

Abrazzar wrote:
Nah, rather nerf income levels deemed to high than boosting incomes, creating more inflation. Actually, I'd welcome a deflation for a year or two.


I agree this would be ideal but only if there were a couple activities that needed nerfing. The thing is the activities vary drastically in payout and risk so strategy (I feel) does not/can not be applied to this situation.

Mohamad Transporte wrote:

nerfing high sec income will give equality to null which is not fair


Um, I think you might be drunk because that statement makes no logical sense.

Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H  What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626
Sindjin Hawke
Distant Light Syndicate
#63 - 2014-10-09 01:09:33 UTC
Nerfing High Sec Income any more than its been nerfed is ridiculous.
Newbies and Carebears need to have enough isk to be comfortable risking life in low sec
or null sec if that is the goal here. There will always be those who dont want to PVP but for those that do, building isk rather easily is essential. WITHOUT having to buy plex to support a PVP based gamestyle.

Keep in mind, I say this as a grown man, with a wife and kids and a career who can only play one account and even that game time is very limited so perhaps I'm being a bit biased here. I am not some spoiled rich kid who can play EVE instead of actually having a real life, with 12 accounts grinding missions, sites and industry all day and night as an alliance lemming.

I used to just buy plex to support PVP when I was in a Corp and flew with a great bunch of mates. But then I realized how ludicrous it was that the game doesn't offer an easier way to make enough passive ISK to support even my limited PVP habits... with ONE account. As a matter of fact, it seems that CCP has done a lot to make sure people like me can't make any real ISK.... just look what POCO's did to PI and look what they did to mission loot. So I refuse to buy plex and am trying to make the game work as designed... with one account and my game time based on having a real life.

So here I sit, grinding out a LVL 4 mission or two a few nights a week attempting to acquire a nest of ISK so I can get back into some PVP...

If more people got down to one account (which is only realistic, actually) , stopped buying plex and tried to utilize the in-game mechanics to support their game play with their ONE account... what then would happen to EVE Online? Perhaps it's time every player gave it a shot...even for just one month. Get down to one account (you can reactivate them later) No one buys any plex... and play the game with what you earn with that one account. I dare you. ;)
Nano Sito
#64 - 2014-10-09 01:50:36 UTC
Sindjin Hawke wrote:
Nerfing High Sec Income any more than its been nerfed is ridiculous.
Newbies and Carebears need to have enough isk to be comfortable risking life in low sec
or null sec if that is the goal here. There will always be those who dont want to PVP but for those that do, building isk rather easily is essential. WITHOUT having to buy plex to support a PVP based gamestyle.

Keep in mind, I say this as a grown man, with a wife and kids and a career who can only play one account and even that game time is very limited so perhaps I'm being a bit biased here. I am not some spoiled rich kid who can play EVE instead of actually having a real life, with 12 accounts grinding missions, sites and industry all day and night as an alliance lemming.

I used to just buy plex to support PVP when I was in a Corp and flew with a great bunch of mates. But then I realized how ludicrous it was that the game doesn't offer an easier way to make enough passive ISK to support even my limited PVP habits... with ONE account. As a matter of fact, it seems that CCP has done a lot to make sure people like me can't make any real ISK.... just look what POCO's did to PI and look what they did to mission loot. So I refuse to buy plex and am trying to make the game work as designed... with one account and my game time based on having a real life.

So here I sit, grinding out a LVL 4 mission or two a few nights a week attempting to acquire a nest of ISK so I can get back into some PVP...

If more people got down to one account (which is only realistic, actually) , stopped buying plex and tried to utilize the in-game mechanics to support their game play with their ONE account... what then would happen to EVE Online? Perhaps it's time every player gave it a shot...even for just one month. Get down to one account (you can reactivate them later) No one buys any plex... and play the game with what you earn with that one account. I dare you. ;)




Amen brother!
Thumbs up!!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#65 - 2014-10-09 03:52:03 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:


you obviously didn't live in null. There are ships called interceptors for catching ratters. If you lose attention to your eve client for 30 sec your ishtar or whatever can be tackled and die. that's how it is now.

And no one wil use ishtar to make calculation for income in hisec, because you don't see people doing missions in ishtars. you see them do it in faction battleships and marauders.

So you are saying if you don't look at local you can die..... What a surprise. Which is.... exactly what I said but in reverse.

The point to using Ishtars to compare to in highsec is to accurately compare relative income using the same ship. Since you 'can' use Faction BS's and Marauders in Null also. The risk is admittedly significantly higher, but you are trying to compare apples & banana's here and then using that to come to erroneous conclusions.
Obviously if you run lvl 4's in a frigate it's going to be lower income also, (if not negative income) but that doesn't mean lvl 4's are negative income. Controls and standardised tests people, it's basic science. What you are trying is commonly called spin doctoring, or more accurately abusing statistics by misrepresenting them.


So i guess you missed my post in this thread, you know, with actual links as well as my own experiences (comparing my more expensive ratting machariel to my 'stoicfaux' fit high sec lvl 3 machariel. Your level of denial of facts that other people have tested and you haven't is both amzaing and sad.

How insane is it that people who can't link to a single shred of evidence that can be tested and recreated can at the same time doubt people who have?
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#66 - 2014-10-09 04:57:44 UTC
Mohamad Transporte wrote:


Incursions: 180 mill per hour (Source: my actual experience)


To achieve this level of isk/hour you need to be contesting frequently (and winning). This means that the true isk/hour/pilot, is lower then that since half the pilots that participated did not get isk.

Also, if you are not contesting, that means you were able to do straight TCRCs, because you had other fleet(s) doing the NRF and TPPHs. This also means that YOUR isk/hour might have been at that, but the overall isk/hour of everyone in the system you were running in, was much lower.

I also won't mention the fact that you need to move 20+ jumps quite often and get at least 10 people together before you can start making any of that isk as well.

Out of all the other isk/hour scenarios you provided, you do not need nearly the number of people as you do for incursions. Have fun making that 180 mil/hour in incursions when it's just you and your alt account.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Mohamad Transporte
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2014-10-09 05:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mohamad Transporte
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Mohamad Transporte wrote:


Incursions: 180 mill per hour (Source: my actual experience)


To achieve this level of isk/hour you need to be contesting frequently (and winning). This means that the true isk/hour/pilot, is lower then that since half the pilots that participated did not get isk.

Also, if you are not contesting, that means you were able to do straight TCRCs, because you had other fleet(s) doing the NRF and TPPHs. This also means that YOUR isk/hour might have been at that, but the overall isk/hour of everyone in the system you were running in, was much lower.

I also won't mention the fact that you need to move 20+ jumps quite often and get at least 10 people together before you can start making any of that isk as well.

Out of all the other isk/hour scenarios you provided, you do not need nearly the number of people as you do for incursions. Have fun making that 180 mil/hour in incursions when it's just you and your alt account.


I dont have an alt in incursions, thats one character only
I don't do frequent contest since .. u know, in these days there are quick popping of moms rather than contesting
Perhaps u missed the fact that LP worth isk and they are included in the 180 mill per hour
Straight TCRC (8 minutes each) with 31 mill each site gives u 232 mill liquid isk + 52 mill worth LP (1 LP=1k Isk)=254 mill / hour

Thats why i put 180 mill as average...taking into consideraion the TPPH and NRFs


As for the guy who said that he has limited playing time and nerfing highsec won't do it... I say, thats the penalty of living in a secure space.. u want to have the same income as before .. go to null/low and keep farming
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#68 - 2014-10-09 05:32:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
Mohamad Transporte wrote:

I dont have an alt in incursions, thats one character only
I don't do frequent contest since .. u know, in these days there are quick popping of moms rather than contesting
Perhaps u missed the fact that LP worth isk and they are included in the 180 mill per hour
Straight TCRC (8 minutes each) with 31 mill each site gives u 232 mill liquid isk + 52 mill worth LP (1 LP=1k Isk)=254 mill / hour

Thats why i put 180 mill as average...taking into consideraion the TPPH and NRFs


Did you take into account the time it takes you to move, and the time it takes for you to sit on waitlist, or to form the fleet?

EDIT: Also the time it takes to move your concord lp

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2014-10-09 07:03:18 UTC
Would be nice if these factors would be considered when a rebalance comes.

+1
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2014-10-09 07:03:32 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Suzuka A1 wrote:
afkalt wrote:
You forgot WH.

Make enough isk there to make everything else look like mining veldspar in a noob ship.


True but WHs don't add isk into the economy and the sites in them don't continuously spawn all day long so there are limits unless you roam around.

Also, I lived in a C2 for about a month and the sites I did in there were barely enough to fuel a large pos and make a small profit.


It's the high enders. We have guys making about 5 billion a run over an evening. It's split as it is a group effort, but with the kind of pull in a single night? Quite frankly there's no point in making isk any other way (save maybe trading). It's in the order of a billion a site.

Takes a fair investment to get going, but once you do - kerrrrching
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#71 - 2014-10-09 10:07:36 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:

Did you take into account the time it takes you to move, and the time it takes for you to sit on waitlist, or to form the fleet?

EDIT: Also the time it takes to move your concord lp

He also ignored the warp time between sites, the fact that even most TCRC's aren't that fast, the influence grind at the start of any Incursion, and all the zero income hours when there are no incursions up at all because someone killed them for the latest reason in the community.
100/Hour is a very high end figure once you actually include all the factors unless you are a community FC, in which case you don't have the same wait list issues.
I'd say I was turning a mere 50/hour once I took several hours on wait lists per day into account as well as the time to move the concord LP.

Still a good income of course, but not the crazyness people like to pretend it is.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#72 - 2014-10-09 10:28:26 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Mohamad Transporte
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2014-10-09 10:59:09 UTC
please try to focus on the main goal of this thread.. which is balancing the income based on calculated risk vs reward.. which is displayed in the following:

High sec incursion: 1*3*4=12
High sec lvl 4: 1*1*2=2
Mining in high sec: 1*1*1=1
Faction war far: 2*1*4=8 (unfortunately, ccp decided that a bomber is enough for fw missions!!)
lvl 5 low sec missions: 2*2*4=16
Null Ratting Anoms (up to forsaken): 3*1*4= 12
Null Ratting Anoms (Forlorn): 3*2*4=24
Null Ratting Anoms (Sanctums/Havens): 3 * 3 * 4=36
Tough DED plexes: 3*2*4= 24
Medium DED Plexes: 3*1*3= 6

this means that level of risk (and proposed isk per hour value taking into consideration that havens / Sanctums can be done only by a sieged Marauder or by a carrier, and Forlorn hubs can be done by faction/pirate BS)) should be:

================Proposed result=======================
Sanctums/Havens (180 mill per hour) (more tough sites than the current, needs carrier/sieged marauder tank)
Forlorn hubs (150 Mill per hour) (Can be done by a well tanked faction/pirate BS or tech3)
lvl 5 missions (low sec) & Tough DED plexes (null) (120 mill per hour)
High sec incursion (HQ) and Forsaken hubs (null) (100 mill per hour)
FW missions: (80 mill per hour)
High sec incursion (VGs/Assualts) & Medium DED Plexes (null) (70 mill per hour)
High sec missions (50 mill per hour)
mining in high sec (20 mill per hour)
===================================================
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2014-10-09 11:01:58 UTC
That's fine, but you CANNOT ignore WH income. So please include it, if you want the analysis to be complete :)


Hint: Even after the proposed changes, why would one not hole dive, if possible?
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2014-10-09 11:09:34 UTC
afkalt wrote:
That's fine, but you CANNOT ignore WH income. So please include it, if you want the analysis to be complete :)


Hint: Even after the proposed changes, why would one not hole dive, if possible?


I personally would see the c5 - c6 at to thop with Sanctums/havens
C4 : Forlorn Hubs
C3 : LV5 Missions
C1-C2 Like HQ/Forsaken Hubs
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2014-10-09 11:11:04 UTC
I'd push it higher, WH is much higher risk imo.

Unless those hubs were equated in difficulty (man....that'd be more hilarious than burners)
Prince Kobol
#77 - 2014-10-09 11:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
baltec1 wrote:


Problem here is that missions offer everything needed. They would inject far less isk than anoms, they would allow us to become much smaller, they would in turn reduce the effectiveness of local intel, they scale infinatly so CCP wont have to revamp it due to overpopulation, they offer more reward than high sec and they are easy to implement.



I'm confused about this statement.. "They would inject far less isk than anoms"

With anon's there is limit on how much isk they can generate where as with missions it is technically infinite.

CCP can far more easily control anons by there re-spawn rate and only so many people can run them where as with mission you can technically have a 500 guys running them 24/7.

Then you have the LP and loot generated by missions, okay not a isk injection but still...

I admit I might be missing something but I have no idea what..
Mohamad Transporte
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2014-10-09 11:23:54 UTC
am not into wh business, as far as i know, its already balanced in the risk vs reward concept. If you have some numbers, please present here
Am comparing null to the standard no risk environment that are unbalanced

The big fights are covered by the moon and PI isk.. that is cool

but i am worried about PVE since i know as a fact that a big part of "Rich" PVE'ers are generating their isk from high sec chars which doesnt make sense.. and if u asking .. so what let them do that, i will answer back that its affecting the activity of null


HOW?!

null sec people are turning into sleeping accounts where their PVP chars are only activated in null when there is scheduled op or when a ping buzz in their jabber account. That is killing their activity instead of doing their active income using same char in null (which supposed to be lucrative in terms of isk making due to its risk)
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#79 - 2014-10-09 11:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: King Fu Hostile
EVE Online true safety and security status combined table for the new or ignorant players:


1. Safest- sovereign null security space (0.0 and below)

Local chat, early warning via intel network, AFK-level PVE difficulty, botting promoted and sanctioned by alliances, empty space

2. Relatively safe- high security space (0.5 and above)

Local chat cluttered, suicide ganking, PVE requires constant docking but is easy and blitzable

3. Unsafe- low security space (0.1-0.4)

PVP area of EVE, moderately challenging PVE, active space

4. Unsafest - wormhole space (-1.0)

No local, hardest PVE that requires looting and salvaging of every wreck, no bounties, tons of bored PVP players patient enough to hunt you for hours, days and weeks


I find the rewards perfectly in balance with the risks.
Prince Kobol
#80 - 2014-10-09 11:44:47 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
EVE Online true safety and security status combined table for the new or ignorant players:


1. Safest- sovereign null security space (0.0 and below)

Local chat, early warning via intel network, AFK-level PVE difficulty, botting promoted and sanctioned by alliances, empty space

2. Relatively safe- high security space (0.5 and above)

Local chat cluttered, suicide ganking, PVE requires constant docking but is easy and blitzable

3. Unsafe- low security space (0.1-0.4)

PVP area of EVE, moderately challenging PVE, active space

4. Unsafest - wormhole space (-1.0)

No local, hardest PVE that requires looting and salvaging of every wreck, no bounties, tons of bored PVP players patient enough to hunt you for hours, days and weeks


I find the rewards perfectly in balance with the risks.


I would discuss your points but as soon I read "botting promoted and sanctioned by alliances" I stopped...