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Warp Core Stabilizer - How to improve the current module use in PVP
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#81 - 2014-10-07 01:28:39 UTC
Jason Ozran wrote:


Yes, that's gonna reduce the amount of trial account farming in the FW with fully fitted stabs. That's the point of those small changes I am trying to input. And change seat from time to time and try to understand other people opinion. You like to blob in a fleet? Fine, that's your problem. Doesn't mean solo can't exist.


So the point of your idea is so you can PvP with trial accounts? Oh gimme some of that sweet content.

Solo play is not dead without this proposal.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-10-07 04:25:56 UTC
I'd like to see a tech 1 specialized point with something like +5 warp scramble strength that only a specific set of cruisers could mount--the omen, moa, thorax, and stabber. It would go in a high slot and would have a 15km range or so.

Fast-aligning ships may still get away due to these ships' slower targeting, and these ships can also be vulnerable when fit for insta-lock because that comes at the cost of damage and defense modules. But that's why you should fly with others. You really want to catch these guys? You can bring a heavy interdictor and have it supported by a handful of fast tacklers with webifiers and one or two larger ships with some combination of weaponry and electronic disruption. Then you can catch just about anyone who is alone and kill them. The only major advantage to the specialized point I am proposing is it allows your HIC pilot to have lower skills and/or allows your commit cost to be reduced, provided you at least have the bodies. If you want to fly solo, then don't be whining when you fail to catch a lot of people.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#83 - 2014-10-07 04:29:26 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'd like to see a tech 1 specialized point with something like +5 warp scramble strength that only a specific set of cruisers could mount--the omen, moa, thorax, and stabber. It would go in a high slot and would have a 15km range or so.

Fast-aligning ships may still get away due to these ships' slower targeting, and these ships can also be vulnerable when fit for insta-lock because that comes at the cost of damage and defense modules. But that's why you should fly with others. You really want to catch these guys? You can bring a heavy interdictor and have it supported by a handful of fast tacklers with webifiers and one or two larger ships with some combination of weaponry and electronic disruption. Then you can catch just about anyone who is alone and kill them. The only major advantage to the specialized point I am proposing is it allows your HIC pilot to have lower skills and/or allows your commit cost to be reduced, provided you at least have the bodies. If you want to fly solo, then don't be whining when you fail to catch a lot of people.


Proposed before
Same Answer
No

Want enhanced interdiction strength? Buy a shiny point
Want to tackle anything and hold it ? Get a HIC
Want to tackle something with stabs? More Points or more people

Simple
As
That

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Jason Ozran
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#84 - 2014-10-07 11:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Ozran
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Jason Ozran wrote:


Yes, that's gonna reduce the amount of trial account farming in the FW with fully fitted stabs. That's the point of those small changes I am trying to input. And change seat from time to time and try to understand other people opinion. You like to blob in a fleet? Fine, that's your problem. Doesn't mean solo can't exist.


So the point of your idea is so you can PvP with trial accounts? Oh gimme some of that sweet content.

Solo play is not dead without this proposal.


Never said it was, just said it makes it even more difficult than it already is. And nobody PVP with trial accounts because you can't do much after a week. So it actually brings another thing: you can farm AFK but not even PVP at that point...again, just to balance, some of the proposal made would help fix that a bit Smile


Daichi Yamato wrote:
Want enhanced interdiction strength? Buy a shiny point
Want to tackle anything and hold it ? Get a HIC
Want to tackle something with stabs? More Points or more people

Interdiction strength doesn't extend with links (doesn't apply) or a shiny point since there are none for warp disruption field generator. For regular point it is not interdiction since it doesn't have infinite point.

Now, look at the characteristics of the Warp Disruption Field Generator, and all the relevant drawback it has:
- Signature Radius: +50 % (easier to kill)
- Mass: +80 %
- Afterburner and Microwarpdrive Max Velocity Bonus: -90 %
- Afterburner and Microwarpdrive Thrust Bonus: -80 %

Basically you can't use your AB or MWD effectively, and you have the signature radius and the agility of a Battleship. Sounds pretty bad and yet it works, because it remains effective enough. That is exactly how the WCS should be, because on the other side, we have this module that any ship can fit (not only a specific class like the one just mentioned), that has drawbacks for PVP (that are irrelevant since nobody pvp with it) and that can be used easily and without any limit. And at least half of the people that reacted here think that it makes total sense Roll
Umino Iruka
#85 - 2014-10-07 12:07:26 UTC
Jason Ozran wrote:
Since nothing has been done for years on this topic despite hundreds of messages posted left and right on the forum, it's time to take a look at this module. This thread is PVP-oriented, so if you are here to complain about high-sec, PVE, or to advise me of fitting 3 true sansha warp scramblers to catch a target, please move on, you are in the wrong place.

Alright, let's try to make this constructive and start with an example Pirate


Example

I was roaming around solo in Devoid and Bleak Lands in a standard Hookbill, looking for some pew-pew with FW guys, usually open to fights. Did about 20 jumps in the area before docking. During that roam, I engaged 8 people, out of which 8 out there were stabbed. Yes, all of them. I was carrying a Warp Disruptor at first and then swapped for a Warp Scrambler on the way, but that didn't prevented them from warping out.

Here are some of the comments from local:

Quote:
[15:14:34] XXXXX > im here to make money not to get blobed by uuuh i dont wana 1v1 cause im a ***** retards

Quote:
[15:21:37] XXXXX > lol sorry dude
[15:21:44] XXXXX > I'm studying for exams while d-plexing :P


No need to be a genius to understand that this module basically allow people to be completely AFK while farming the game for ISK (I thought we already had highsec for that...), and leave any fights even when committed, even when you have a scrambler fitted.


Now let's have a look at the module itself and some of its characteristics, and what can be some potential solutions/ideas to improve the current situation:

Current issues

  1. Doesn't require any specific skills (Warp Drive Operation Level 1 + Navigation Level 1, taking just a few minutes)
  2. Can be fitted on every single ship due to low PWG and CPU requirements (1MW + 30 TF)
  3. The drawback is totally irrelevant (-50% targeting range / -50% scan resolution)
  4. No limitation on how many can be fitted
  5. No limitation on where it can be used (high/low/nullsec, FW, Missions, etc.)
  6. There are currently no adaptive counter-measure to this module (only heavy interdictors have infinite point strength)


Ideas

  1. Should require more skills to be fitted. Make it a level 5 skill that will take time to be trained. That will prevent the army of one-day old character to just jump into a T1 frigate and farm AFK

  2. Increase the PWG and CPU requirements so that it is harder to fit them on any random ship [DISCARDED DUE TO LOW FITTING CAPACITIES ON FREIGHTER]

  3. Change the drawback to something relevant, such as a massive reduction in agility/increase in align time. That would avoid people insta-warping even when pointed, giving a chance for agressor to kill them

  4. Reduce the number of warp core stabilizers that can be fitted. Could be 1 by default, increased to 2 with skill at lvl 3 and 3 with skill at lvl 5. That won't impact ships that have built-in WCS (venture, transport ships, etc.)[ADJUSTED TO 3 WCS MAXIMUM]

  5. Warp core stabilizers, just like some other modules, should not be able to be used anywhere. Low sec isn't a low security area anymore, since anybody can just leave alive those days. Funnily enough, missioners that come in lowsec generally don't fit any since they need to tank the NPCs, so that is not really an issue for missions, where they can remain an option. FW plexes however, where this issue is very common, shouldn't allow you to get inside if you have one fitted. You are in WARFARE area, you are here to fight the opposite militia, period. If not, then just move back to highsec Blink

  6. Design an infinite point that can only be fitted on frigates/destroyers and that will use a high slot. Of course, you can't point capitals and above with it. You can currently keep a titan pointed in a single T2 cruiser hull, why couldn't we prevent random farmers from getting away in a frig? Plus using a high slot would mean less dps, making it interesting fitting wise (keep target pointed, but increase risk of dying). [RISKY DUE TO THE ABUS THAT THIS COULD LEAD TO - GATE CAMP AHEAD]


Now, those are just ideas that some friends and myself had after some discussion ingame. I'm sure there will be plenty more, and hopefully we can end up in a situation where WCS actually have some value which comes at a price and need to be trained.



Show me on the doll where the warp core stabilizer touched you!

I mean, seriously....where the **** do you come up with these ideas that people do any kind of meaningful combat PvE with fitted warp stabs?

The truth is that you are butthurt because some passing hauler did not just roll over and die to your incompetent bunch of retards you're flying with.
Jason Ozran
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#86 - 2014-10-07 12:27:10 UTC
Umino Iruka wrote:

Show me on the doll where the warp core stabilizer touched you!

I mean, seriously....where the **** do you come up with these ideas that people do any kind of meaningful combat PvE with fitted warp stabs?

The truth is that you are butthurt because some passing hauler did not just roll over and die to your incompetent bunch of retards you're flying with.

You, sir, just won the palm. Please read again (or read at all) the first post and you'll see that everything single word you said is off topic.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2014-10-07 15:44:38 UTC
Since I don't want to be accused of not reading the original post I'll take it bit by bit where relevant:

Jason Ozran wrote:
...waffle...
Example

I was roaming around solo in Devoid and Bleak Lands in a standard Hookbill, looking for some pew-pew with FW guys, usually open to fights. Did about 20 jumps in the area before docking. During that roam, I engaged 8 people, out of which 8 out there were stabbed. Yes, all of them. I was carrying a Warp Disruptor at first and then swapped for a Warp Scrambler on the way, but that didn't prevented them from warping out.

Here are some of the comments from local:

Quote:
[15:14:34] XXXXX > im here to make money not to get blobed by uuuh i dont wana 1v1 cause im a ***** retards

Quote:
[15:21:37] XXXXX > lol sorry dude
[15:21:44] XXXXX > I'm studying for exams while d-plexing :P


No need to be a genius to understand that this module basically allow people to be completely AFK while farming the game for ISK (I thought we already had highsec for that...), and leave any fights even when committed, even when you have a scrambler fitted.


So here you quote two people who escaped you because they had fit their ship to allow them to and you hadn't fit your ship with sufficient scram (*a scrambler fitted* as quoted). They fit correctly for their goals and thwarted you in yours therefore legitimately 'won' the engagement on their terms. Also if they were AFK no amount of WCS would help as the ship does not auto-warp if attacked, you would simply sidle up, target and annihilate them if they were not at their keyboard.

Jason Ozran wrote:

Now let's have a look at the module itself and some of its characteristics, and what can be some potential solutions/ideas to improve the current situation:

Current issues

  1. Doesn't require any specific skills (Warp Drive Operation Level 1 + Navigation Level 1, taking just a few minutes)
  2. Can be fitted on every single ship due to low PWG and CPU requirements (1MW + 30 TF)
  3. The drawback is totally irrelevant (-50% targeting range / -50% scan resolution)
  4. No limitation on how many can be fitted
  5. No limitation on where it can be used (high/low/nullsec, FW, Missions, etc.)
  6. There are currently no adaptive counter-measure to this module (only heavy interdictors have infinite point strength)


Tech I WCS is just that, a tech I module. It should not require huge skills to use.

The drawback is pretty damn relevant as you are trying to kill them. If you have enough scram they won't even get a lock on you before exploding.

The number of low slots is a very hard limit on how many WCS can be fit and you as the aggressor can *always* bring more scram than the defender can fit WCS.

There doesn't need to be an adaptive counter as you have a perfect hard counter in scrams.

Jason Ozran wrote:

Ideas
...ideas that are no use due to the points above...

Now, those are just ideas that some friends and myself had after some discussion ingame. I'm sure there will be plenty more, and hopefully we can end up in a situation where WCS actually have some value which comes at a price and need to be trained.


So you discussed this with friends? Why then do you not bring them along to apply more scram without changing the fit you find so endearing? WCS already comes at a huge cost, if you mess up you die. No ifs, no buts. If you fail to apply your scram correctly you still have combat utility. The WCS fit vessel has virtually none.

Hopefully this makes my point clearly with direct reference to the amended original OP.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#88 - 2014-10-07 15:46:13 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
One previous suggestion I made that OP may consider constructive is that the thingybob you must orbit should have an area of effect that's 10-20km larger than the maximum orbit radius in which anyone trying to warp gets the standard 'interference is preventing you from running away' message...

It is a half-baked solution that doesn't solve much.


I need a better oven :D Or just save the money and re-iterate 'bring more scram...' again Cool

Ok.
The first concern is - making scrams and points obsolete in plexes and alpha reign supreme.

Second, you can do some neat things now that will become impossible if there would be 10-20km bubble inside. I'm talking about separating gangs by acceleration gate killing the first tackle and warping away just as cavalry arrives or quickly bounce in and out to see who's in a plex etc.

Third is unavoidable pod loss that will most certainly happen with in-plex bubbles.


All good points, so simply bringing enough scram is the order of the day

Bringing more scrams is good and all, but it still doesn't fix broken game mechanics of de-plexing.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#89 - 2014-10-07 15:57:43 UTC
Jason Ozran wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:



Never said it was, just said it makes it even more difficult than it already is. And nobody PVP with trial accounts because you can't do much after a week. So it actually brings another thing: you can farm AFK but not even PVP at that point...again, just to balance, some of the proposal made would help fix that a bit Smile



So this is no longer about being frustrated because your solo pilot cant get kills, this is now a crusade to fix FW?

How is new players de-plexing a problem? And why should they have to face you? like i said at the very beginning; if you evict them from the site, you win, they lose. FW is not just about kills.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#90 - 2014-10-07 16:30:24 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Also if they were AFK no amount of WCS would help as the ship does not auto-warp if attacked, you would simply sidle up, target and annihilate them if they were not at their keyboard.

Em, well you can be away from the keyboard when engagement actually stars, but autoalarm will notify you (if set correctly) when you are being attacked and ~3,5k ehp gives you reasonable amount of time to react even if you were in the other room doing whatever.

Daichi Yamato wrote:
Jason Ozran wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:


Never said it was, just said it makes it even more difficult than it already is. And nobody PVP with trial accounts because you can't do much after a week. So it actually brings another thing: you can farm AFK but not even PVP at that point...again, just to balance, some of the proposal made would help fix that a bit Smile



So this is no longer about being frustrated because your solo pilot cant get kills, this is now a crusade to fix FW?

How is new players de-plexing a problem? And why should they have to face you? like i said at the very beginning; if you evict them from the site, you win, they lose. FW is not just about kills.

It was always a crusade to fix FW, mate. P

New players de-plexing is not a problem (new or old is irrelevant really), but semi-afk players de-plexing and getting bacon is a problem.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#91 - 2014-10-07 18:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
OP does not accept that fitting in EVE is a game of choices and compromises. He can choose a cookie-cutter fit and miss out on specialized kills or he can choose a specialized fit that will get those kills and be at a disadvantage against other cookie-cutter fits. In this, both WCS and EVE are working as intended.

Instead, he maintains that anyone telling him this is "off topic" or "wrong" or "didn't read the original post" and only accepts the idea that WCS must be imbalanced because they're still remotely useful and there's no universal godslayer module to immediately disable any number of them with only one fitting slot.

OP's use case - FW farmers using WCS - is only a portion of what WCS get used for every day and the proposed changes would make them utterly useless for all other cases as well as for the FW scenario he is complaining about. Hictor bubbles having those penalties are accepted as being just fine because of the role that ship is playing. You're not going to be trying to escape but rather you're intending to fight and to commit to that fight. Giving WCS new penalties that make you faster to lock and directly nerf your ability to warp away utterly defeats the purpose of even using them in the first place.

So that's what we have here. OP doesn't want WCS "adjusted", OP wants WCS changed in such a way that nobody will ever dare to fly stabbed anywhere in New Eden ever again.

OP: You're hunting FW D-plexers, which means you should always expect at least one stab. Rather than crying about it, HTFU and learn to change your fit just like everyone else does. While you're at it, try flying stabbed so that you can see and feel the penalties they impose on your ship. Maybe once you understand the module properly (beyond just "herpaderp, they let my targets warp away and that is bad"), you'll be able to make intelligent suggestions instead of this nonsensical drivel you're so staunchly defending.

Truly, there are times when PvPers whine louder, more ridiculously and with more absolute self-entitlement than the PvErs they make fun of. This is one of those times.
Foxstar Damaskeenus
why did i join this corp
Not Purple Shoot It.
#92 - 2014-10-07 19:01:10 UTC
Change the drawback to something relevant, such as a massive reduction in agility/increase in align time. That would avoid people insta-warping even when pointed, giving a chance for agressor to kill them

"[this thread] is a cesspit of trolling and flaming" ISD Buldath
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#93 - 2014-10-07 19:23:11 UTC
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote:
Change the drawback to something relevant, such as a massive reduction in agility/increase in align time. That would avoid people insta-warping even when pointed, giving a chance for agressor to kill them


Clearly, what constitutes "relevant" is highly subjective.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#94 - 2014-10-07 21:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote:
Change the drawback to something relevant, such as a massive reduction in agility/increase in align time. That would avoid people insta-warping even when pointed, giving a chance for agressor to kill them


Clearly, what constitutes "relevant" is highly subjective.
Indeed.

Let's face it, WCS are a counter that requires you to makes choices when fitting them. To counter that counter, requires the aggressor to also make choices in their fitting. Both come with consequences. It's called balance.
The OP is now asking for the balance to be tipped in his direction. It's a no no. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Jason Ozran
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#95 - 2014-10-07 21:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Ozran
Really like when people take what they want from posts to get to conclusions. The only times I said it was off topic is because they didn't even dare reading the first post. One even recognized it (props to him for that).

Now if you had read the previous posts/pages and the main post, I already discard 2 of the 6 proposals and modified another 2. It is nowhere near anilihating the WCS, because he won't touch all the off-topic thing mentioned (haulers, miners...everything kind of "not made for PVP in the first place"). You will still be able to get out, and 3 WCS will still need two scramblers (which all frigates have, slicer included, after refitting), compared to unlimited ones. And you think that's big?

I respect the fact that you don't agree with me, but I have the right to no agree with you. When I see post from guys that are actually involved in the FW saying like "semi-afk players de-plexing and getting bacon is a problem", and since this would definitely limit it via the proposal I made (even if not perfect, but what is), then I think we have something. And for the 10th time, it is not because I have friends IG that I necessarily PVP with them. But solo seems like a damn hard concept for some people here.

Finally, if you were using them, you would know that nobody actually PVP with WCS. Fits are way too demanding if you want to get a chance. So saying "it is a drawback because you are less good to PVP" is not a valid argument, as simple as this, since it doesn't match reality.

Instead of defending farmers deplexing AFK, grab your balls and see that as a slight improvement. Unless you are that farmer, and it that case say it clearly so that we can understand why you defend them so bad.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#96 - 2014-10-07 22:34:46 UTC
Instead of trying to kill lone t1 frigates you could actually do real pvp...

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2014-10-07 23:01:54 UTC
Maybe you just need to accept that you aren't going to be able to get a fight out of everyone who you encounter. Some days will be worse than other, but that's just life.

Jason Ozran wrote:
How can you plan ahead that the guy is gonna be stabbed? You can't, so why would you sacrifice fits that make sense, with prop/web/point/tank when you can't plan it and take the risk to fight a regular pvper? Of course if someone comes back to the same plex, I'll go with 3 scram and try to get it, but usually as long as you stay in local they won't go back there. Warping away before you land is part of the game, never mentioned this as an issue. It's when you are committed that you should be able to leave in such an easy way, unless you get out of point range or anything like that.


Obviously your 8 of 8 were committed enough to get away from you and others like you. Maybe they weren't very committed, but they were committed enough. Besides, if a player is AFK and STILL gets away from you, then maybe WCSs aren't where the real problem lies. Just sayin'.


ANARCHYFOREVAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#98 - 2014-10-07 23:02:29 UTC
First off, the drawback is huge. Your playing it off as "irrelevant" is a joke. Second, you left out a drawback. The use of a low slot that could've went to tank (for armor tanks) or to boosting dps (for shield tanks). Someone has 3? Well then their range so small, if you brought friends and out pointed the stability, they wouldn't even be able to lock you and if you were close enough for them to lock you, they'll be popped before they even finish locking.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2014-10-07 23:04:52 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Instead of trying to kill lone t1 frigates you could actually do real pvp...


Please explain how a lone PLAYER in any ship VS. another lone PLAYER in any ship is not PVP.

ANARCHYFOREVAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#100 - 2014-10-07 23:41:52 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:

It was always a crusade to fix FW, mate. P

New players de-plexing is not a problem (new or old is irrelevant really), but semi-afk players de-plexing and getting bacon is a problem.


a great portion of this thread was about making things catchable for solo players. solo play was repeatedly mentioned to exist, with the implication that they should be catered to.

semi afk plexing is no more a problem than semi afk mining. they are both low interaction activities, they both get very little bacon for their time. It is also not stabs that make them go afk and changing stabs will not stop ppl going afk.

You can still afk plex in an empty T1 ships with an empty clone and no stabs. But then you get your elite kills so its ok? you're happy with that?

If afk plexing is really the issue, then why not tackle that itself, rather than changing things for haulers and travel fits as well?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs