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BEST SHIP FOR LVL4

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I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
Ronin Reloaded
#61 - 2011-12-12 20:21:46 UTC
Qalix wrote:
Come back with numbers. Otherwise this discussion is pointless.



Why do I need to provide numbers? It's the general consensus that the Machariel is just as good or better for general purpose blitzing for high sec L4s. If you want to prove otherwise you need to bring the evidence to back up your opinion against the grain.

However, the optimal solution is to just have both.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#62 - 2011-12-12 20:36:51 UTC
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
Qalix wrote:
Come back with numbers. Otherwise this discussion is pointless.



Why do I need to provide numbers? It's the general consensus that the Machariel is just as good or better for general purpose blitzing for high sec L4s. If you want to prove otherwise you need to bring the evidence to back up your opinion against the grain.

However, the optimal solution is to just have both.


The general consensus of approximately 4 or 5 people in this thread is not really a consensus. Nor does it appear to be based on any sort of facts other than a DPS appraisal. If you want to be able to say the machariel is better overall, you're going to have to prove it. Otherwise, you're just talking. You've chosen to give responses that are filled with assumptions and personal opinion but no facts. So, yes, you need to provide numbers.

The optimal solution is to buy just a tengu and fill more ship roles and play styles overall, rather than pretending like the primary consideration for buying a particular ship is how it does in hisec L4s.

(I'll pretend for a moment that I don't recognize that you're attempting to boost your faction BS sales.)
stoicfaux
#63 - 2011-12-12 20:42:09 UTC
Qalix wrote:

Unless the mach is saving 5 minutes or more per mission, every mission, its not better. I will make up most of the mach's time savings (if there is any) on alignment time and warp speed.


I've kept numbers/times before. The Vargur, which turns and accelerates as well as the Scimitar from Wing Commander I (i.e. turns and accelerates like a brick,) runs most missions faster than the Tengu (at least in Angel space.) So the Mach, which has similar firepower, but greater agility and speed will/should run missions faster than a Tengu.

Quote:
The tengu is so much more flexible that your money will be much better spent on the tengu.

Flexibility and low/no-sec missioning are both good points. Someone(tm) really needs to create a flow chart that we can pop-up whenever someone asks the "which ship is best?" question. (Are you in high/lo/null sec? What NPC space are you in? Are you dual+ boxing? Guns or turrets? etc..)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
Ronin Reloaded
#64 - 2011-12-12 23:51:28 UTC
Qalix wrote:
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
Qalix wrote:
Come back with numbers. Otherwise this discussion is pointless.



Why do I need to provide numbers? It's the general consensus that the Machariel is just as good or better for general purpose blitzing for high sec L4s. If you want to prove otherwise you need to bring the evidence to back up your opinion against the grain.

However, the optimal solution is to just have both.


The general consensus of approximately 4 or 5 people in this thread is not really a consensus. Nor does it appear to be based on any sort of facts other than a DPS appraisal. If you want to be able to say the machariel is better overall, you're going to have to prove it. Otherwise, you're just talking. You've chosen to give responses that are filled with assumptions and personal opinion but no facts. So, yes, you need to provide numbers.

The optimal solution is to buy just a tengu and fill more ship roles and play styles overall, rather than pretending like the primary consideration for buying a particular ship is how it does in hisec L4s.

(I'll pretend for a moment that I don't recognize that you're attempting to boost your faction BS sales.)


I wouldn't even know where to start to produce and sell a faction battleship, you can put the tinfoil away Lol. I've lurked the forums often, and on average it seems to be that the Machariel is much preferred over the Tengu for general L4 running in high sec due to greater firepower without sacrificing a large amount of mobility. The excessive firepower coupled with the mobility of the Machariel allows you apply that firepower as optimally as possible by moving close to them quickly. I roll with a MWD on the majority of missions, since they don't need a speed tank and the tank I have fit is already sufficient enough that the sig bloom won't hurt me much at all while the massive increase in mobility allows me to apply that excessive damage potential that much faster.

Outside of high sec Tengu is king, Loki is cool too. Also the occasional blitz mission sometimes a Tengu is a better idea because that tiny sig and massive speed let them tank an excessive amount of damage so they can just pop all triggers, tank the whole mission and then gtfo without wasting time on killing everything for faster LP. If I could fly strat cruisers I would definitely be using one for missions like Right Hand of Zazzmatazz, Damsel in Distress and such.
Silber Zidayn
Doomheim
#65 - 2011-12-13 00:53:56 UTC
There are generally 3 "best" efficient L4 solo ships. Tengu, Vargur and Machariel. Two of those are BS and one is a t3 cruiser.

They all have a few similarities.

-Agility
-Speed
-Range to apply damage
-Tank

From there they branch off a bit.

Vargur requires the most skill points invested. Mach is fairly easy to get into with low SP and does amazing damage with t1 guns but if you mess up with a cheap fit and low SP you'll lose the ship. Tengu has the least damage but the most tank while requiring average SP.

None of them are typically awesome with cheap T2 fits. A great tengu fit shouldn't cost more than 1.5b, Mach up to 3b and a Vargur I could spend just over 3b. It's probably best to stick under 2b though or you'll be a beacon for death. Tengu is fully cap stable where the others are not unless you spend the money or sacrifice other places. I have also flown a 440m ISK Tengu that was fully T2 fit with T1 rigs and it was a pleasure in missions though with the average tank from T2 fit and average DPS common to Tengus I cannot kill triggers while tanking a room so it's slower killing groups properly. The 1.5b tengu can do that, however DPS is still average. My Mach clears rooms faster but you need to kill the web frigs while they are 0 trans moving towards you or you take some serious damage without your speed.

Vargur I have no idea aside from EFT. Seems like it has the same pros as the Mach with the added trac+salv slots. Solo I would probably aim for the Varg because of that.

I mostly use my expensive Tengu simply because I can afk if needed and not worry about running out of cap or shields. Mach is slightly faster at clearing missions and much faster at straight LP blitz.

TLDR: Tengu has a wicked tank but average damage. Mach is better at blitzing LP but requires more attention.
Spineker
#66 - 2011-12-13 01:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
The mach is not king in Caldari space. I think that is the issue. Depends on where you run.

And if you want those awesome DPS numbers you need to train guns for many months.

Also running low sec missions is no place for a battleship that can get scrammed and webbed and have little chance of getting out alive, Tengu in Low sec is a different animal. All ships have their place there is no "Best" ship I fly most of them.
Vrykolakasis
Sparrowhawks Corp
#67 - 2011-12-13 06:19:14 UTC
There is that. Outside of highsec I would take a t3 over a marauder for l4 - better chance of survival, and better ability to run away if necessary, in a PvP environment. Over a Machariel? I'm unsure, but even with something as excellent in PvP as the Machariel, a PvE fit will win rarely - and never, against a similarly well-fit, similarly skilled and talented pilot in a similar ship class fit for PvP.

@ Silber - I have not flown the Mach or Tengu but I have a fully skilled Vargur, and I can generally say that it is a solid ship. It does just fine with t2 fits, stick a cheap faction booster on it and it becomes extremely tanky - moreso than necessary but you can comfortably kill triggers, which is nice. It can be made to be cap stable without too much effort but doing so is honestly a waste of time - most average fits will pull 8 or so minutes of cap and I have never run into an issue with killing enough ships in that time to necessitate more capacitor. The main things I love about it are the tracking, the ability to salvage on-the-go (much less effort than an alt in a noctis, for instance) and the damage projection - the main issue I have with it is weak sensor strength.

Other issues with the Vargur opposed to the Mach is that the Vargur is stuck as a shield boat, and has no PvP use. Still, I am extremely satisfied with the ship and can recommend it to anyone interested in committing the training time.
I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
Ronin Reloaded
#68 - 2011-12-13 16:24:30 UTC
Silber Zidayn wrote:


Vargur I have no idea aside from EFT. Seems like it has the same pros as the Mach with the added trac+salv slots. Solo I would probably aim for the Varg because of that.



It moves slower than the Machariel, puts out less overall dps and the projection is not as high. The Machariel has slightly better falloff. Tankier and salving on the go, sure.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#69 - 2011-12-13 18:13:03 UTC
Qalix wrote:
You guys are clearly locked into thinking only of hisec L4 missions.


You mean where most people actually Mission? No one here was discussing nullsec missioning, and if you're insisting on setting specific parameters such as "Fly it there yourself no aid etc etc" well then obviously a T3 will be much easier to move with cloak and interdiction nullifier.

At no point till your post was anyone mentioning low or null though.

Machs align fine, and warp as fast as a Tengu will (unless I missed something that makes a Tengu warp faster than 3.00 AU)

If you need videos as to how fast a Mach missions I suggest you check out http://www.youtube.com/user/EveOnlineAscendancy who puts up blitz videos in his Mach from several missions. Show me a Tengu that clears as fast as his full clear videos in the Mach and I'll pretend for a moment that I don't recognize that you're attempting to boost your T3 sales.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
stoicfaux
#70 - 2011-12-13 18:25:54 UTC
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
Silber Zidayn wrote:


Vargur I have no idea aside from EFT. Seems like it has the same pros as the Mach with the added trac+salv slots. Solo I would probably aim for the Varg because of that.



It moves slower than the Machariel, puts out less overall dps and the projection is not as high. The Machariel has slightly better falloff. Tankier and salving on the go, sure.


Lies!-ish.

Mach > Vargur because the Mach (preferably a 1500m/s MWD Mach) can quickly close the range to reduce DPS loss due to falloff.

Mach w/T1 ammo: 942 DPS 4.2km + 62km falloff, .06748 tracking
Vargur w/RF ammo: 1054 DPS 4.2km + 72km falloff, .0813 tracking
Mach w/RF ammo: 1083 DPS 4.2km + 62km falloff, .06748 tracking

The Mach's ability to use sentries shouldn't be much of an advantage due to sentries being stationary and the Mach not being stationary.

However in terms of falloff, a T1 ammo Mach just needs to be ~11km closer to the target in order to mach the RF ammo Vargur's DPS. Unfortunately, the Vargur's lack of agility and lower speed, probably means that a T1 ammo Mach can apply more effective DPS in most level 4 missions. (I would still like to see numbers to see what the real world difference is.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Goose99
#71 - 2011-12-13 18:42:58 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
Silber Zidayn wrote:


Vargur I have no idea aside from EFT. Seems like it has the same pros as the Mach with the added trac+salv slots. Solo I would probably aim for the Varg because of that.



It moves slower than the Machariel, puts out less overall dps and the projection is not as high. The Machariel has slightly better falloff. Tankier and salving on the go, sure.


Lies!-ish.

Mach > Vargur because the Mach (preferably a 1500m/s MWD Mach) can quickly close the range to reduce DPS loss due to falloff.

Mach w/T1 ammo: 942 DPS 4.2km + 62km falloff, .06748 tracking
Vargur w/RF ammo: 1054 DPS 4.2km + 72km falloff, .0813 tracking
Mach w/RF ammo: 1083 DPS 4.2km + 62km falloff, .06748 tracking

The Mach's ability to use sentries shouldn't be much of an advantage due to sentries being stationary and the Mach not being stationary.

However in terms of falloff, a T1 ammo Mach just needs to be ~11km closer to the target in order to mach the RF ammo Vargur's DPS. Unfortunately, the Vargur's lack of agility and lower speed, probably means that a T1 ammo Mach can apply more effective DPS in most level 4 missions. (I would still like to see numbers to see what the real world difference is.)



Other people's Vargurs won't get those numbers. Your Vargur fit has 4 rf gyros, pushing tes into scripted tcs, eating into a 3 slot tank, no prop, and use t2 projectile rigs. Mach should have 69km falloff and 1.2k dps, even without projectile rigs.

Here's comparisons of normal fits:

[Machariel, New Setup 1]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist C-Type 100MN Afterburner

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5

4.2 + 69km, 1241dps, 600m/s, 2m56s cap life

[Vargur, New Setup 1]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Gist C-Type 100MN Afterburner

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5

4.2 + 69km, 1086 dps, 461m/s, 1m18s cap life
stoicfaux
#72 - 2011-12-13 20:19:03 UTC
Goose99 wrote:

Other people's Vargurs won't get those numbers. Your Vargur fit has 4 rf gyros, pushing tes into scripted tcs, eating into a 3 slot tank, no prop, and use t2 projectile rigs. Mach should have 69km falloff and 1.2k dps, even without projectile rigs.


And your point is? That other people don't know how to fit and fly a mission Vargur? Straight

The fit below works. It's probably the bare minimum of tank for blitzing in Angel space. (I've dipped under 20% shields on a couple of the harder missions or when I botched triggers.) You can swap the SBA for an AB for most missions. (Plus, I use a Gyro II in place of the 4th RF Gyro.) You can swap the Pithum MSB for a LSB II, if you want to save isk and don't mind pulsing the SB.

As for the AB, I'm not convinced it's all that useful for managing falloff. NPCs have their pseudo-MWD, NPC frigates and cruisers can be popped while waiting for the battleships to close and, due to volley damage, I'm not sure you gain a lot by closing the range quickly anyway. Meaning, if it takes 2.5 volleys to kill something, and getting closer reduces that to 2.1 volleys, you still need 3 volleys regardless. Plus it takes forever (IIRC 17s?) to accelerate to full speed under AB which just gets you an underwhelming ~450m/s, so sprinting from spawn to spawn is kinda pointless in a Vargur.


[Vargur, Level 4 - Pithum C]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Explosion Dampening Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II
Salvager II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I

4.2+72km, 1054 DPS w/o drones (1213 DPS with Hammerhead IIs, but seriously, how often do you use drones with a Vargur?)

No AB: 163m/s, 12s align time... 13:23s of cap, cap stable with the tractor/salvagers off
with 100 AB II: 426m/s, 17.7s align time, 5:15 of cap

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#73 - 2011-12-13 20:26:16 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

If you need videos as to how fast a Mach missions I suggest you check out http://www.youtube.com/user/EveOnlineAscendancy who puts up blitz videos in his Mach from several missions.


Oddly enough, after spot checking a few of those missions, his Mach times were the same as (or a bit worse than) my Vargur times. I think he needs to use the AB/MWD a heck of a lot more, especially on Pirate Invasion. Plus I think he was using an overly generous keep at range value to avoid getting too close and creating tracking issues.

I have Vargur mission times, so I'll probably break down and buy an MWD Mach and time some missions later this week.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
Ronin Reloaded
#74 - 2011-12-13 21:30:20 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
Silber Zidayn wrote:


Vargur I have no idea aside from EFT. Seems like it has the same pros as the Mach with the added trac+salv slots. Solo I would probably aim for the Varg because of that.



It moves slower than the Machariel, puts out less overall dps and the projection is not as high. The Machariel has slightly better falloff. Tankier and salving on the go, sure.


Lies!-ish.

Mach > Vargur because the Mach (preferably a 1500m/s MWD Mach) can quickly close the range to reduce DPS loss due to falloff.

Mach w/T1 ammo: 942 DPS 4.2km + 62km falloff, .06748 tracking
Vargur w/RF ammo: 1054 DPS 4.2km + 72km falloff, .0813 tracking
Mach w/RF ammo: 1083 DPS 4.2km + 62km falloff, .06748 tracking

The Mach's ability to use sentries shouldn't be much of an advantage due to sentries being stationary and the Mach not being stationary.

However in terms of falloff, a T1 ammo Mach just needs to be ~11km closer to the target in order to mach the RF ammo Vargur's DPS. Unfortunately, the Vargur's lack of agility and lower speed, probably means that a T1 ammo Mach can apply more effective DPS in most level 4 missions. (I would still like to see numbers to see what the real world difference is.)



I don't understand why people think using RF ammo is justified on a Vargur. It's not justified on a Machariel and it's not justified on the Vargur. Sure it increases mission completion time but between travel, fit changes and agent conversation it is likely not worth the additional cost. I believe Seriously Bored did a post on the old forums about how it wasn't worth it, or Seriously Bored was partaking in the thread. I can't remember. The Machariel has a 69km falloff not 62, which is comparable your crazy Vargur fit with a TE and two tracking computers and blows it away with a Vargur using the standard 3 gyro, 2 TE fit.
I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
Ronin Reloaded
#75 - 2011-12-13 21:35:42 UTC  |  Edited by: I Accidentally YourShip
stoicfaux wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

Other people's Vargurs won't get those numbers. Your Vargur fit has 4 rf gyros, pushing tes into scripted tcs, eating into a 3 slot tank, no prop, and use t2 projectile rigs. Mach should have 69km falloff and 1.2k dps, even without projectile rigs.


And your point is? That other people don't know how to fit and fly a mission Vargur? Straight

The fit below works. It's probably the bare minimum of tank for blitzing in Angel space. (I've dipped under 20% shields on a couple of the harder missions or when I botched triggers.) You can swap the SBA for an AB for most missions. (Plus, I use a Gyro II in place of the 4th RF Gyro.) You can swap the Pithum MSB for a LSB II, if you want to save isk and don't mind pulsing the SB.

As for the AB, I'm not convinced it's all that useful for managing falloff. NPCs have their pseudo-MWD, NPC frigates and cruisers can be popped while waiting for the battleships to close and, due to volley damage, I'm not sure you gain a lot by closing the range quickly anyway. Meaning, if it takes 2.5 volleys to kill something, and getting closer reduces that to 2.1 volleys, you still need 3 volleys regardless. Plus it takes forever (IIRC 17s?) to accelerate to full speed under AB which just gets you an underwhelming ~450m/s, so sprinting from spawn to spawn is kinda pointless in a Vargur.


[Vargur, Level 4 - Pithum C]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Explosion Dampening Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II
Salvager II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I

4.2+72km, 1054 DPS w/o drones (1213 DPS with Hammerhead IIs, but seriously, how often do you use drones with a Vargur?)

No AB: 163m/s, 12s align time... 13:23s of cap, cap stable with the tractor/salvagers off
with 100 AB II: 426m/s, 17.7s align time, 5:15 of cap



Edit: AB was answered Oops


Edit: Also why not use two sentries instead of having hammers since you apparently never use them? I assume you keep rather stationary in your Vargur as it's not as mobile as the Machariel. Adds 105 dps using Bouncers for very little effort. I'd not use Gardes since their range without an omni is rather pathetic.
stoicfaux
#76 - 2011-12-13 22:05:57 UTC
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
I don't understand why people think using RF ammo is justified on a Vargur. It's not justified on a Machariel and it's not justified on the Vargur. Sure it increases mission completion time but between travel, fit changes and agent conversation it is likely not worth the additional cost. I believe Seriously Bored did a post on the old forums about how it wasn't worth it, or Seriously Bored was partaking in the thread. I can't remember. The Machariel has a 69km falloff not 62, which is comparable your crazy Vargur fit with a TE and two tracking computers and blows it away with a Vargur using the standard 3 gyro, 2 TE fit.


I would want to see the numbers. If you can dig up that post I would appreciate it. Someone(tm) could also time missions with T1 versus RF (and now, versus Hail) ammo. Creating a spreadsheet to calculate Volleys To Kill for turret weapons might provide insight as well. Hrmm....

As I mentioned previously, the RF ammo lets a Vargur meet or beat the DPS of a T1 ammo Mach that's ~11km closer to the target. Maybe the RF ammo helps compensate for the Vargur's agility/speed.


I Accidentally YourShip wrote:

What do you drop for the AB? That tank is already pretty thin so I assume a TC dropping your falloff.


I drop the SBAII. Gank really is tank. You can always fit a LSB II or XL SB on rely on burst tanking until you whittle down the incoming fire. Personally, I like the Pithum C MSB because it perma-tanks, so it's one less thing to fiddle with when constantly locking targets, locking wrecks, looting and managing the tractor and salvagers.

Remember, the Vargar has a built-in SBA (the shield boost bonus.) Think of the Vargur as having a built-in tank slot. The Mach has a four slot tank while the Vargur has a 3+1 slot tank (or 4+1 slot tank if you drop the AB.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#77 - 2011-12-13 22:15:55 UTC
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:

Edit: Also why not use two sentries instead of having hammers since you apparently never use them? I assume you keep rather stationary in your Vargur as it's not as mobile as the Machariel. Adds 105 dps using Bouncers for very little effort. I'd not use Gardes since their range without an omni is rather pathetic.


I only carry lights. Warriors and Hobgoblins. I almost always use Hobgoblins because, oddly enough, elite Angel Vipers/Webifier frigates are weakest to therm, and because I normally only deploy drones on things that are really close, so the Warrior's faster speed isn't needed. NPCs tend to die quickly, which means new spawns happen fairly quickly, so if the drones wander off far away while I'm busy locking NPCs, wrecks, looting, tractoring and salvaging and they suddenly grab aggro, they're dead. (Plus I haven't hot-keyed the drone attack and return commands yet, so laziness is another reason for not using them except when absolutely needed.)

No sentries because the Vargur is moving. Either to the next gate, or moving to close the range or control tracking. Roughly speaking, every 1km translates to a 1% dps improvement.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
Ronin Reloaded
#78 - 2011-12-13 22:26:32 UTC  |  Edited by: I Accidentally YourShip
stoicfaux wrote:
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
I don't understand why people think using RF ammo is justified on a Vargur. It's not justified on a Machariel and it's not justified on the Vargur. Sure it increases mission completion time but between travel, fit changes and agent conversation it is likely not worth the additional cost. I believe Seriously Bored did a post on the old forums about how it wasn't worth it, or Seriously Bored was partaking in the thread. I can't remember. The Machariel has a 69km falloff not 62, which is comparable your crazy Vargur fit with a TE and two tracking computers and blows it away with a Vargur using the standard 3 gyro, 2 TE fit.


I would want to see the numbers. If you can dig up that post I would appreciate it. Someone(tm) could also time missions with T1 versus RF (and now, versus Hail) ammo. Creating a spreadsheet to calculate Volleys To Kill for turret weapons might provide insight as well. Hrmm....

As I mentioned previously, the RF ammo lets a Vargur meet or beat the DPS of a T1 ammo Mach that's ~11km closer to the target. Maybe the RF ammo helps compensate for the Vargur's agility/speed.





It seems that not only was my assertion incorrect, but the Machariel benefits from faction ammo as well: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1294100&page=2#41

Liang did a mathematical analysis of it.


Edit: I don't know if hail will be in the same boat though, hail is sitting at ~2400 each in Jita.
I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
Ronin Reloaded
#79 - 2011-12-13 22:56:36 UTC
As an interesting point to the analysis in the link above, with faction ammo being useful for the Machariel and its 7 turrets of bullet spewing goodness at 2.96 seconds per shot with a burst aerator II that means that faction ammo should be useful on most missioning ships in general as they tend to shoot more slowly than autocannons do overall. Though missile ships would need to be even more careful with their volley counting.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#80 - 2011-12-13 23:35:02 UTC
Qalix wrote:
You guys are clearly locked into thinking only of hisec L4 missions. The DPS-centric mode of thinking is a symptom of EFT warrior fever. Which has more "dps"-- a 30 mm chain gun or a .223 auto rifle? After the first round to the head, really, it doesn't much matter. Assuming the research on previous forum posts on this topic is correct, the only missions that Mach's run faster are the really big ones with lots of BS like Extravaganza, Vengeance, etc. where that big volley and DPS are useful rather than just overkill. For everything else the Tengu is as fast or faster.

If Mach's aren't saving 4-5 minutes or more per mission, every mission, they're not better than the Tengu, they're roughly the same. ARE they saving that much time? How much time DO they save? Do you have any numbers? FRAPs it for me, please. I think we would all appreciate the final word on this topic. Because they're so similar in their overall times, its those "side notes" that define the real difference between them.


duh we are talking about highsec lv 4 missions, for low/null tengu all the way. an 800mm ac doesn't do a lot of damge on its own, you shouldn't be seeing a lot of overkill on frigs. and time measurements should be done from mission accept to mission turn in. and tbh a tengus agility is only going to save it a few seconds over the mach. 1.5 sec align time difference between the two, and according to eft both have a 3au/s warp speed, so I really don't see that being a bigger difference than the dps difference in a lot of cases. imo the tengu wins when you need to gank a target at long range, mach wins when stuff is close, or you need to chew through a lot of hp.

and a t2 rof rig has a bigger bonus than a gyro, so it goes first in the stacking penalty formula and gives a pretty nice dps boost.

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