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Carriers in HiSec
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Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#21 - 2014-10-04 11:02:14 UTC
Scout Vyvorant wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Given CCP saying they will be looking into this at a later time, great for them but i think that alone is a bad idea because it devalues the grandfathered caps in high sec like chribba's veldnaught. Then ontop of that you have the game play issues

The only way i see it working are capitals cannot use any capital sized modules or bonuses while in high sec so dreads cannot shoot unless micro fit or enter siege, carriers cant rep or go into triage nor can they launch more than 5 drones at a time ( also no fighters ). Rorquals cannot run the industrial cores so no compression or super links, supers same as carriers and if titans ever made it in no doomsdays ( obviously ) no bridge use, no guns.

I dont know whether jump drives should still be allowed on them or not like jump freighters can since on both sides of the coin it lets them jump away back to low or null, but also allows you to keep a cap fleet to hotdrop people with in highsec in relative safety.

Either way That pretty much makes them giant things to stare at or move around as you see fit with very little useage ability
sure dreads can undock and suspect bait, carriers can refit ships and use large transfers if they wanted, but overall they become mostly worthless and it pushes players to move them back to low or Null ASAP. And it makes jita a viable capital hull market, buy and fit the ships without the needs to fly the pieces to the hull which makes traders and builders a little happier about the change since their goods now dont need to be moved through dangerous space to low sec or null. ( unless they just sold in jita anyways in that case they get squat )

Also secondary thought i should just toss in here, if they do get allowed in highsec there should be a moratorium on building them there, would be easy enough to say high sec factories are not configured for ships of that tonnage or class. which means they still have to be at risk to be built and sold initially.


Your point is valid, and to make it reality you just need to extend existing flags of "banned in empire space" that bombs and warp disruption field generators already have.

The only capital module I would allow are personal Armor Repair and Shield Boosters, but beside that all the weapon systems, all the siege and triage modules, all the remote shield / armor / capacitor trasmitters should be banned in empire, while the hull is not.

The only counter argument to this is "what if people use carriers to haul stuff without risking a gank in high sec?", but still people do it anyway in massively tanked JF, slowboating from A to B.


I would need time to weigh pros and cons of self reps of capital calibur before making any suggestions on that one, maybe a hard limit of 1 active at a time to avoid dual rep archons tanking fleets solo and laughing as they do

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

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Scout Vyvorant
Doomheim
#22 - 2014-10-04 11:40:30 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:

I would need time to weigh pros and cons of self reps of capital calibur before making any suggestions on that one, maybe a hard limit of 1 active at a time to avoid dual rep archons tanking fleets solo and laughing as they do


Ofc double local rep can make them virtually immortal in high sec, however, what's the point in being immortal if you cannot do anything to fend off your enemies?

Even if you say "they have fighter drones", a fleet that's worth even a tiny bit can easly destroy the fighters, leaving the carrier virtually without any way to counter the enemy. Or even better, ban in empire also fighter drones.

My idea of "Capital in High Sec" is simply a capital that has to move from point A to point B, getting as close as possible to the jumping range to low/null sec to minimize the fatigue. No weapon system, no remote assistence and in this case, not even drones, make them useless from an offence point of view, and even if they are double tanked who is going to "primary" capital that cannot do anything of what's supposed to do?

The other point about not worrying too much on the double rep possibility is which big alliance would risk capitals in high sec, considering they most likely have a war going on that will make them sitting ducks while travelling in empire?

Having them repair as much as they like in the empire imo is fine, however, they must be forbid to use any of their other capital sized modules.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#23 - 2014-10-04 11:55:08 UTC
Even then carriers can launch heavy jam drones when they decloak, fast enough that anything that targets them and goes for tackle will be jammed long enough for the carrier to warp, i would personally just say no reps going along with my "no capital sized modules allowed idea" otherwise your just asking for problems with balancing something that is already walking a fine razor's edge

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

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Tragot Gomndor
Three Sword Inc
#24 - 2014-10-04 11:57:15 UTC
NO

NONONONONONO TO CAPS IN HIGHSEC NO
Scout Vyvorant
Doomheim
#25 - 2014-10-04 11:59:22 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Even then carriers can launch heavy jam drones when they decloak, fast enough that anything that targets them and goes for tackle will be jammed long enough for the carrier to warp, i would personally just say no reps going along with my "no capital sized modules allowed idea" otherwise your just asking for problems with balancing something that is already walking a fine razor's edge


Even your scenario is a "tactical withdraw" one.

With no hostility intended, can you offer me an attack scenario with a carrier unable to lunch fighter in high sec? Or at least, where having let's say a dual rep dominix isn't better, cheaper and probably as effective?
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#26 - 2014-10-04 12:04:00 UTC
Tragot Gomndor wrote:
NO


Well CCP said they're actively revisiting the idea with the CSM, and odds are highsec will become a capital safety highway, so better prepare yourself and any sexy time spots

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

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Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#27 - 2014-10-04 12:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Mabata
Scout Vyvorant wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Even then carriers can launch heavy jam drones when they decloak, fast enough that anything that targets them and goes for tackle will be jammed long enough for the carrier to warp, i would personally just say no reps going along with my "no capital sized modules allowed idea" otherwise your just asking for problems with balancing something that is already walking a fine razor's edge


Even your scenario is a "tactical withdraw" one.

With no hostility intended, can you offer me an attack scenario with a carrier unable to lunch fighter in high sec? Or at least, where having let's say a dual rep dominix isn't better, cheaper and probably as effective?


simple carriers can field 7 geckos +1 fighter with carrier 4 or 5, 5 geckos ( the discussed highsec limit ) is over 1000 DPS with 2 DDA's ( t2 not even faction )
Show me a domi that can launch 5 geckos and 1.6m EHP and that might be a more viable option
oh and dont forget carriers can literally carry dozens of geckos, not to mention heavys of every type, all the sentrys, all the lights, all the mediums, all the utility drones, and still have room for a full rack of fighters

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

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Scout Vyvorant
Doomheim
#28 - 2014-10-04 12:23:17 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Scout Vyvorant wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Even then carriers can launch heavy jam drones when they decloak, fast enough that anything that targets them and goes for tackle will be jammed long enough for the carrier to warp, i would personally just say no reps going along with my "no capital sized modules allowed idea" otherwise your just asking for problems with balancing something that is already walking a fine razor's edge


Even your scenario is a "tactical withdraw" one.

With no hostility intended, can you offer me an attack scenario with a carrier unable to lunch fighter in high sec? Or at least, where having let's say a dual rep dominix isn't better, cheaper and probably as effective?


simple carriers can field 7 geckos +1 fighter with carrier 4 or 5, 5 geckos ( the discussed highsec limit ) is over 1000 DPS with 2 DDA's ( t2 not even faction )
Show me a domi that can launch 5 geckos and 1.6m EHP and that might be a more viable option
oh and dont forget carriers can literally carry dozens of geckos, not to mention heavys of every type, all the sentrys, all the lights, all the mediums, all the utility drones, and still have room for a full rack of fighters


I see where you are coming from, to make carriers viable to pass into high sec you'll need then to shut down their drone bay, which i don't know how hard is going to be from a code point of view.

You might also want to consider this two point:

1) Possible carrier fights are not going to be one sided, if they can enter high sec, any party can have carrier(s) in their fleet composition, which might automatically balance issue (i said might)

2) Even without a capital armor repair, they can fit two Centus / Corpus x type armor repair and still be a significant threat
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#29 - 2014-10-04 13:36:43 UTC
Haedonism Bot wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Only on the condition that anyone can attack them at the cost of suspect flag on themselves and that they can get no remote assistance.

Otherwise we have a hauling ship that can't be killed by anything.

Before you say use dreads to gank them, it would require 5 dreads for a normal t2 tanked archon and it would cost about 15 bil.

Capital ships as they absolutely can't be allowed into highsec without penalties or it breaks every form of pvp and risk vs reward.

RL&DR: NO, CCP can't pull this off the right way.


As long as they still can't jump in highsec, and need to use gates like everyone else, I actually don't see any issue with this. They wouldn't be as good for hauling as freighters, and the New Order would gank them anyway if someone used them for that. Stupid people would use them to run level 4s and die hilariously to ninjas. The killmails would be absurd and wonderful.

Well if carriers can't be attacked without suicide ganking them you are looking at 6m ehp before heat on an archon with deadspace, such an archon could carry 500b and would be unkillable solely due to fact that ganking it would require so many nados/talos that it would crash the node when they would land the grid.

No concord intervention is a must or it breaks highsec risk vs reward for hauling even more than it's already broken.

To top it off they can jump to a ls station if they get bumped.

Give it a thought.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Rena Monachica
Capital Hot Rods
#30 - 2014-10-04 14:02:23 UTC
They could restrict characters in NPC Corps from using capitals. Don´t know if this is possible for CCP
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-10-04 14:53:32 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Haedonism Bot wrote:
As long as they still can't jump in highsec, and need to use gates like everyone else, I actually don't see any issue with this. They wouldn't be as good for hauling as freighters, and the New Order would gank them anyway if someone used them for that. Stupid people would use them to run level 4s and die hilariously to ninjas. The killmails would be absurd and wonderful.


Most L4s have an acceleration gate, which cannot transport Caps.

Zimmer Jones wrote:
I desire this entertainment, and want the dreads in on it too. caps are pretty when they die, everyone should get to see them first hand.


If you want to see that, you go to Low sec or 00 sec and join a capital fight first hand. There's no need to bring that to High sec and take yet another reason to leave High sec for Low sec and 00 sec away from the latter two.


Entertainment for the masses. I've already seen a many caps, supercaps and titans die, but all the carebears should get to see what their labor is all about. Pretty fireworks when someones big toy dies.

My caps would not be leaving lowsec, they know their place(s)

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#32 - 2014-10-04 15:57:06 UTC
This would be horrible.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#33 - 2014-10-04 16:20:12 UTC
they can limit the weapons systems like stealth bombers bombs and their allowing doomsday to be used in null sec now once the expansion hits.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#34 - 2014-10-04 16:34:41 UTC
Rena Monachica wrote:
They could restrict characters in NPC Corps from using capitals. Don´t know if this is possible for CCP

Yeah so only player corp guys can use carriers, guess what, it takes whole 30 sec to leave corp and make a new one and even if you need to be in player corp for 7 days to use a carrier there are still a million carriers that will literally never die.

Carriers in highsec would be indestructible without weakness mechanics and that completely rapes the metagame and kills any fun to be had.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Iain Cariaba
#35 - 2014-10-04 16:34:43 UTC
Wow, all the people pontificating on how over powered a carrier hauling in highsec make me laugh.

Quote:
...an archon could carry 500b and would be unkillable...


You people really have no clue about carriers. All you do is look at raw numbers in the info panel and panic. Sure, that 1 million m3 ship maintenance bay looks massive, until you consider two things. One, it can only hold assembled ships. This means you can put 2 battleships in a carrier with a little bit left over. The second thing to consider, those assembled ships in the ship maintenance bay can only carry ammo and other charges in their holds. If you want to haul a secondary fit for your battleship, it goes into the carrier's hold. Other than that one bay, the total hauling ability of a carrier, excluding the fuel bay, is far less than your average t1 industrial.

So, yeah, keep panicing that somehow carrier's are going to become superhaulers, cause it ain't gonna happen, at least not by anyone who knows what they're doing.
Iain Cariaba
#36 - 2014-10-04 16:50:07 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Rena Monachica wrote:
They could restrict characters in NPC Corps from using capitals. Don´t know if this is possible for CCP

Yeah so only player corp guys can use carriers, guess what, it takes whole 30 sec to leave corp and make a new one and even if you need to be in player corp for 7 days to use a carrier there are still a million carriers that will literally never die.

Carriers in highsec would be indestructible without weakness mechanics and that completely rapes the metagame and kills any fun to be had.

And what would these NPC corp owned carriers do? They can't run missions, they suck as haulers, you can't mine with them, and only the utterly stupid would think to try and gank with one. Oh, you can remote rep with one, woohoo. Sure, you could send one alongside a freighter to make it essentially gank proof, or to rep your station camping fleet, but that's about it. As soon as an NPC corp carrier were to leave highsec, I'd give it 4 jumps max, on a good day, before it's swarmed and killed.

Now, I'm neither for nor against capital ships in highsec. However, if you're going to try and give a sermon about a topic, at least have some clue on the topic you're preaching about.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#37 - 2014-10-04 17:21:33 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
And what would these NPC corp owned carriers do?


OMG, they'd obviously do ~stuff~, d'uh! Big smile

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Iain Cariaba
#38 - 2014-10-04 17:32:14 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
And what would these NPC corp owned carriers do?


OMG, they'd obviously do ~stuff~, d'uh! Big smile

Oh, yeah, I forgot about ~stuff~.

Everyone panic, ~someone~ might do ~stuff~ with ~something~!!!!!!! Run away!!! Lol
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#39 - 2014-10-04 17:42:37 UTC
I'd be ok with it as long as they give the faction and customs police some real teeth. Like, turns a RR arty cane into a puff of rusty smoke and feelings of regret strong. If they do that and make it so they're strong enough to rip through even local triage reps, then I will be happy and be fine with them letting carrier into high. God knows I'd like to fly a phoenix or chimera around there...
Scout Vyvorant
Doomheim
#40 - 2014-10-04 18:28:04 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Rena Monachica wrote:
They could restrict characters in NPC Corps from using capitals. Don´t know if this is possible for CCP

Yeah so only player corp guys can use carriers, guess what, it takes whole 30 sec to leave corp and make a new one and even if you need to be in player corp for 7 days to use a carrier there are still a million carriers that will literally never die.

Carriers in highsec would be indestructible without weakness mechanics and that completely rapes the metagame and kills any fun to be had.

And what would these NPC corp owned carriers do? They can't run missions, they suck as haulers, you can't mine with them, and only the utterly stupid would think to try and gank with one. Oh, you can remote rep with one, woohoo. Sure, you could send one alongside a freighter to make it essentially gank proof, or to rep your station camping fleet, but that's about it. As soon as an NPC corp carrier were to leave highsec, I'd give it 4 jumps max, on a good day, before it's swarmed and killed.

Now, I'm neither for nor against capital ships in highsec. However, if you're going to try and give a sermon about a topic, at least have some clue on the topic you're preaching about.


I'm actually with you on this, while I would still disable any non-local repair capital module anyway.