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Are Caldari any good at PvP?
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Lich Terminus
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2011-12-12 19:13:37 UTC
Hi guys, new podguy here^^
I've started this game as Caldari cause I love the missile idea, but I heard ppl saying missiles are not good in PvP cause of delivery times aganist the turrets immediate damage. Is this a so important disvantage? Do I have to train turrets if I want to play PvP, that is what I'd to go in EVE? Thank you^^
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#2 - 2011-12-12 19:20:18 UTC
Turrets of any size can hit any sized target for full damage.
- Missiles only really hit their own size or higher for full damage and even then the target needs to be slow and be big

Turret T2 weapon systems get additional damage bonuses.
- T2 Missiles get Rate of Fire Bonuses

Turret T2 ammo has attractive options with acceptable drawbacks
- T2 Missile ammo has some bad drawbacks

Missiles have a built in damage mitigation factor that turrets don't.


All that said, missiles are perfectly valid in PvP. Especially with support skills trained up.

In their current state, the consenses seems to be that turrets are the best 'Min/Max' option.

All races use guns, so the gunnery support skills carry over to other races well.

Caldari are the primary benifactors of missile support skills with a few notable exceptions in the Minnie Typhoon and all races stealth bombers.

TL;DR

Missiles are OK for PvP and you can use them.
Turrets remain 'better'
Lich Terminus
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2011-12-12 19:25:19 UTC
L'ouris wrote:
Turrets of any size can hit any sized target for full damage.
- Missiles only really hit their own size or higher for full damage and even then the target needs to be slow and be big

Turret T2 weapon systems get additional damage bonuses.
- T2 Missiles get Rate of Fire Bonuses

Turret T2 ammo has attractive options with acceptable drawbacks
- T2 Missile ammo has some bad drawbacks

Missiles have a built in damage mitigation factor that turrets don't.


All that said, missiles are perfectly valid in PvP. Especially with support skills trained up.

In their current state, the consenses seems to be that turrets are the best 'Min/Max' option.

All races use guns, so the gunnery support skills carry over to other races well.

Caldari are the primary benifactors of missile support skills with a few notable exceptions in the Minnie Typhoon and all races stealth bombers.

TL;DR

Missiles are OK for PvP and you can use them.
Turrets remain 'better'


Thx for your fast answer! What I'm concerned about is this: I'm at the very beginning, so the first SP I train are important. If I spent time on training missiles skills now will I have the chance to join a PvP corp with them? Or the use of turrets is mandatory?
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#4 - 2011-12-12 19:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: L'ouris
Honestly, if your new and flying with a group:

Weapons don't matter, tackle does :P

You'll be fine with whatever you like seeing make thing blow up in space.

Your big role in fleets will be acting as bait so your shield / armour tanking skills and your tackle skills will be more important to the gangs success than any damage your putting out for a while.

Your corp will be able to provide guidance on what sort of gangs they want to fly down the line so you can re-evaluate when you feel you need to.

Feel free to grab a corpie and pew a bit with both missiles and turrets. Get a feel for the damage output for both at your skill level.

EDIT:

I misread your response, sorry.

Getting into a PvP corp usually just entails using a combat capable Battlecruiser. So your in luck with either turrets or missiles.

Again, as time goes on you may re-evaluate your inital choice whatever it is.

If your new: pick the weapon system that makes you squeal like a school girl when it blows things up. You won't be disappointed with that choice any time soon.
gfldex
#5 - 2011-12-12 19:36:54 UTC
Lich Terminus wrote:
I'm at the very beginning, so the first SP I train are important.


Why is that?

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#6 - 2011-12-12 19:40:09 UTC
Quote:
Missiles are OK for PvP and you can use them.
Turrets remain 'better'


This is just not correct. Weapon travel time is more or less irrelevant unless we're talking about sniper ranges. You don't see a lot of missileboats around because there aren't that many missileboats in the game. The Drake, on the other hand, is the second most popular BC (second only to the Hurricane, and far moreso than the Myrm or Harb), the Raven one of the most popular BS...
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#7 - 2011-12-12 19:43:53 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
Missiles are OK for PvP and you can use them.
Turrets remain 'better'


This is just not correct. Weapon travel time is more or less irrelevant unless we're talking about sniper ranges. You don't see a lot of missileboats around because there aren't that many missileboats in the game. The Drake, on the other hand, is the second most popular BC (second only to the Hurricane, and far moreso than the Myrm or Harb), the Raven one of the most popular BS...


While I aggree with your statement: please point out where I used time to target as a valid critique of either weapon system.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#8 - 2011-12-12 20:01:46 UTC
gfldex wrote:
Lich Terminus wrote:
I'm at the very beginning, so the first SP I train are important.


Why is that?

Cause his Cerebral Accelerator is gonna go poof?

But then again he can just plug in +3s and be fine...

Re OP: there is a reason why there exists an EVE meme that goes "BECAUSE OF FALCON"....

The Drake is a Lie
Velicitia
XS Tech
#9 - 2011-12-12 20:38:15 UTC
L'ouris wrote:
Turrets of any size can hit any sized target for full damage.
- Missiles only really hit their own size or higher for full damage and even then the target needs to be slow and be big

This is wrong. Turrets have the same problem (IIRC, listed as Signature Resolution).

We'll assume that a target that is stationary within a turret's optimal range. This means a turret should have 100% chance to hit.
Turret damage then boils down to [signature resolution] / [target signature radius]. If the turret's res is larger than the sig radius of the target, the target takes less damage.

Swapping to missiles, same stationary target within the missile's range. This means the target can't outrun the explosion velocity of the missile. Missile damage then boils down to [explosion radius] / [target signature radius]. If the explosion radius is larger than the target's signature radius, then the ship takes less damage.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#10 - 2011-12-12 20:44:12 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
L'ouris wrote:
Turrets of any size can hit any sized target for full damage.
- Missiles only really hit their own size or higher for full damage and even then the target needs to be slow and be big

This is wrong. Turrets have the same problem (IIRC, listed as Signature Resolution).

We'll assume that a target that is stationary within a turret's optimal range. This means a turret should have 100% chance to hit.
Turret damage then boils down to [signature resolution] / [target signature radius]. If the turret's res is larger than the sig radius of the target, the target takes less damage.

Swapping to missiles, same stationary target within the missile's range. This means the target can't outrun the explosion velocity of the missile. Missile damage then boils down to [explosion radius] / [target signature radius]. If the explosion radius is larger than the target's signature radius, then the ship takes less damage.


Find the equivilent of the Damage reduction factor on the Turret systems. The DRF is what limits the missiles to same class full damage.

Lord knows I'm wrong alot, but I was of the understanding that the turret damage modifiers were a result of the tracking equation.

And if the target had 0 transversal full damage would be applied because the targets sig radius only comes into play with the tracking formula for turrets.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#11 - 2011-12-12 20:56:49 UTC
L'ouris wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
Missiles are OK for PvP and you can use them.
Turrets remain 'better'


This is just not correct. Weapon travel time is more or less irrelevant unless we're talking about sniper ranges. You don't see a lot of missileboats around because there aren't that many missileboats in the game. The Drake, on the other hand, is the second most popular BC (second only to the Hurricane, and far moreso than the Myrm or Harb), the Raven one of the most popular BS...


While I aggree with your statement: please point out where I used time to target as a valid critique of either weapon system.


I appear to be hallucinating. Must be the LSD.

Regardless,


Quote:
Missiles have a built in damage mitigation factor that turrets don't.


What is this? Turrets have one too, it's just dependent on transversal velocity as modified by sig radius, as opposed to a flat reduction based on speed/size.
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#12 - 2011-12-12 21:07:07 UTC  |  Edited by: L'ouris
Kahega Amielden wrote:


Quote:
Missiles have a built in damage mitigation factor that turrets don't.


What is this? Turrets have one too, it's just dependent on transversal velocity as modified by sig radius, as opposed to a flat reduction based on speed/size.


Missiles have a built in attribute called DRF which is used by the missile damage equation to adjust the damage down ( never up ).

Sorry OP, this conversation veered more towards a Ships and Modules discussion.

If someone has a better grasp of the turret damage modifiers then please pipe up.

I prowl the new player forums for a reason too. :)

EDIT:
Turret Tracking Wiki

If transversal is 0, the scan resolution of the turret as it compares to the target size is 0 too. This means that if the target is in optimal range, X will be less than .1

Is my understanding incorrect?
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#13 - 2011-12-12 21:33:21 UTC
Quote:
Missiles have a built in attribute called DRF which is used by the missile damage equation to adjust the damage down ( never up ).


All that does is modify the way size/speed affect the damage, though.



Quote:
If transversal is 0, the scan resolution of the turret as it compares to the target size is 0 too. This means that if the target is in optimal range, X will be less than .1

Is my understanding incorrect?


Transversal and sig resolution/sig radius are independent. High transversal has nothing to do with sig radius or sig resolution, and vice versa. Sig resolution/sig radius is determined exclusively by the turret you are using and the hull the target is in.
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#14 - 2011-12-12 21:40:49 UTC
check the equation again.

In regards to the DRF value it actually affects the scale of the damage mitigation.

the short of it is, use faction missiles and not rage.

Also it's why battleship and above missiles are considered so sub-par.
and why bombers needed the explosion velocity bonus as a hull perk.

The DRF attribute is why with the exact same skills on the exact same ship, faction missiles apply more damage to that orbiting interceptor than the rage missiles.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#15 - 2011-12-12 21:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
L'ouris wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
L'ouris wrote:
Turrets of any size can hit any sized target for full damage.
- Missiles only really hit their own size or higher for full damage and even then the target needs to be slow and be big

This is wrong. Turrets have the same problem (IIRC, listed as Signature Resolution).

We'll assume that a target that is stationary within a turret's optimal range. This means a turret should have 100% chance to hit.
Turret damage then boils down to [signature resolution] / [target signature radius]. If the turret's res is larger than the sig radius of the target, the target takes less damage.

Swapping to missiles, same stationary target within the missile's range. This means the target can't outrun the explosion velocity of the missile. Missile damage then boils down to [explosion radius] / [target signature radius]. If the explosion radius is larger than the target's signature radius, then the ship takes less damage.


Find the equivilent of the Damage reduction factor on the Turret systems. The DRF is what limits the missiles to same class full damage.

Lord knows I'm wrong alot, but I was of the understanding that the turret damage modifiers were a result of the tracking equation.

And if the target had 0 transversal full damage would be applied because the targets sig radius only comes into play with the tracking formula for turrets.


actually, yeah -- sitting at zero transversal and zero speed, a turret will always hit. Damage is then random

Here's the full formula:
Quote:

ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)


Taken from here -- http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Falloff

Broken down so I can read it without going crazy:
(
..(
....(
......(
........Transversal speed/
........(
..........Range to target * Turret Tracking
........)
......)
......*
......(
........Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius
......)
....)^2
..)
..+
..(
....(
......max
........(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range
......)
....)
..../Turret Falloff
..)^2
)

Let's say we have the following numbers:
Transversal = 0
Range To Target = 1000 (meters)
Turret Tracking = 0.1 (rad/sec)
Signature Resolution = 125 (meters)
Sig Radius = 42 (meters)
Turret Optimal = 3600 (meters)
Turret Falloff = 5000 (meters)



Numbers relevant to the turret are pulled from the Modal Neutron Particle Cannon
Numbers relevant to a ship are pulled from a Tristan

ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((0/(3600 * 0.1))*(125 / 42))^2) + ((max(0, 3000 - 3600))/5000)^2)

first block is
(0/(3600 * 0.1))*(125 / 42))^2)

0/360 = 0
0 * 2.9 = 0
0 ^ 2 = 0



(max(0, 3000 - 3600))/5000)^2

-600/5000 = -0.12
max (0, -0.12) = 0
0 ^ 2 = 0

0.5 ^ 0 = 1.0

EVE tests ChanceToHit for each individual shot made by a gun turret against X, where X is a random number also between 0 and 1, e.g. 0.765321, generated by the EVE server for each shot.

If X < ChanceToHit, the shot is a hit. If X > ChanceToHit, the shot is a miss or zero damage is applied.

Assuming that X can never equal 1, then you'll always hit with the numbers given.

X also determines the quality of a hit. If X < 0.01, then the Quality Of Hit multiplier = 3. (i.e. a 'Wrecking' shot) If X > 0.01 the Quality Of Hit multiplier = X + 0.5

so, assuming X is greater than 0.01 and 0.9999 or less (assuming it rounds at the thousandths marker), you can hit for anywhere with a damage multiplier of 0.5101 and 1.4999.

Using the same numbers for a Scourge Missile (I think these are Cruiser/BC sized)

Quote:

Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er,1) , (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)) )

Where
sig = ship's signature
vel = ship's velocity
Er = Explosion Radius of missile
Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile
drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile


taken from here http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1250923

sig = 42 (meters)
vel = 0
Er = 125
Ev = 81
drf = 3.2
Base_Damage = 150

150 * MIN ( MIN (42/125,1), (81/125 * 42/0) ^ (log(3.2)/log(5.5)

MIN (42/125, 1) = 0.336

(81/125 * 42/0) = DIV0.

because the right hand side breaks, we have to use the left hand side (0.336)

so the overall damage will always be 150 * 0.336 per missile (or 50.4, less resists, obviously). Assuming Antimatter, hitting armour, you'll hit anywhere from 36.42 to 104 (17 * 4.2 * 0.5101 on the low end, and 17 * 4.2 * 1.499 on the high... 17 = base armour damage, 4.2 is the gun modifier, and the other multiplier is from X above). Also, there's a 1% chance that you hit for 214 damage (x <0.1, a "wrecking shot").

This means a volley of seven Scourge missiles will hit for about 350 damage. A volley of seven antimatter rounds will hit somewhere between 254 and 728 damage (though this would be higher if you got a wrecking shot).

Now, if we were to break things a little, and have the tristan moving at say 80 m/sec in any direction with a transversal > 0.1, the missiles will actually pull ahead, as they will *ALWAYS* hit the ship whereas the turrets will start to miss ... a lot.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#16 - 2011-12-12 21:59:44 UTC
good points:

still looks like the 'any sized gun CAN hit any sized target for full damage ( actually potentially for a wrecking shot )' is valid.

and all missiles still have a built in factor that reduces their full damage against all targets, the DRF.

as to which is better in practice? I don't really care.

The Min/Max approach would lead you towards turrets.

The generalist approach leads to missiles.

As stated earlier, either works.

Something to consider:

There is nothing you can do to make your torps hit an AB frigate for full potential damage. You need help with multiple webs and target painters.

With a turret boat, you can pilot to reduce transversal.

Velicitia
XS Tech
#17 - 2011-12-12 22:11:25 UTC
L'ouris wrote:
good points:

still looks like the 'any sized gun CAN hit any sized target for full damage ( actually potentially for a wrecking shot )' is valid.

and all missiles still have a built in factor that reduces their full damage against all targets, the DRF.

as to which is better in practice? I don't really care.

The Min/Max approach would lead you towards turrets.

The generalist approach leads to missiles.

As stated earlier, either works.

Something to consider:

There is nothing you can do to make your torps hit an AB frigate for full potential damage. You need help with multiple webs and target painters.

With a turret boat, you can pilot to reduce transversal.




Yep, best case in our scenario is that you have a 50% chance to hit for full damage (calculated per turret). Missiles have a 100% chance of striking for 33.6% of their base damage. Rolling the numbers, we'd probably see that each weapon system doles out about the same DPS in this scenario.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#18 - 2011-12-13 01:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ottersmacker
Missiles have the ability to deal consistent dps from range without the constraints of optimal and falloff which limit the pvp power of turret based warships, thus ships like the Hawk-class are the perfect platform for any pilot seeking to annihilate his foes.

So - don't worry OP; whatever you choose, do not neglect the support skills though (i.e the ones increasing missile velocity, flight time, rate of fire etc ). Chances are you'll end up training for some kind of turrets as well, and you'll learn the finer points of their ins and outs in practice - you can even make trying different weapon systems a goal in itself. There will be times when you'll think "oh durrr if only i had *insert weapon system you currently are not using*" no matter what you use :p

i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#19 - 2011-12-13 04:18:10 UTC
Lich Terminus wrote:
Thx for your fast answer! What I'm concerned about is this: I'm at the very beginning, so the first SP I train are important. If I spent time on training missiles skills now will I have the chance to join a PvP corp with them? Or the use of turrets is mandatory?

*Disclaimer: There are a LOT of PvP'ers who are a hell of a lot better than me.

I trained missiles first starting out. I didn't know any better at the time and I figured I might as well train the skill that goes w/ my race. Having played the game a few years now, I am just now getting around to training my T2 large guns. With that I'll tell you my thoughts in hindsight, for what they are worth.

Missile skills are faster to train. There are fewer support skills. That said, guns give you a lot more lateral. As some of the others here have mentioned, support skills like tracking, rapid firing, motion prediction, sharpshooter etc... carry over into all turret types. While guns do tend to be a better PVP weapon... but bare in mind this game isn't just about DPS and tank. There are a lot of variables in space combat, and he who tanks most and hits hardest doesn't always win. Guns let you experimental with far more hulls, and therefor more tactics. Tbqh, the PvP bouts I have won were usually not due to my trained skills, but rather to some gross asymmetric factor, like having a web and good jamming, or sacrificing a launcher hard-point or two for a neut and a couple NOS. Personally, I'm fine with having started in missiles. I could field a pretty mean belt ratting / fleet Raven in a pretty short amount of time, and that helped me get to 0.0 and kind of survive sooner.

tl;dr; If you plan to stick around for a while, I would say go with guns. If you still aren't sure about EvE, missiles are a fine option too.

BTW - there is one really good missile boat in the game that's not Caldari and no one has mentioned: the Damnation. It's a real killer.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Ione Hawke
Darkness Industries
#20 - 2011-12-14 12:26:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ione Hawke
As a 0.0 resident I can tell you that in practice Caldari ships and missiles are not used very often in fleet pvp. For pvp in general either Minmatar or Amarr are the way to go. My alliance currently makes, with the exception of the Vulture for fleet bonus, no use of Caldari ships in any fleet and the only caldari ship that you encounter in 0.0 fleets is the Drake.

Currently we have few ppl who are relatively low SP and mostly Caldari speced in corp. They are all training like mad for minmatar :) My advise, safe yourself the trouble and go minmatar right away if you are serious about PVP.

Lich Terminus wrote:
Hi guys, new podguy here^^
I've started this game as Caldari cause I love the missile idea, but I heard ppl saying missiles are not good in PvP cause of delivery times aganist the turrets immediate damage. Is this a so important disvantage? Do I have to train turrets if I want to play PvP, that is what I'd to go in EVE? Thank you^^


Also, that is indeed a disadvantage, as it give the enemies logistics ships more time to lock a target and rep it.
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