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Transport ships too WEAK!

Author
Cap Tyrian
Guiding Hand Social Club
#21 - 2011-12-12 15:39:18 UTC
Tahna Rouspel wrote:
Tippia wrote:
[quote=Tahna Rouspel]

Awesome Post from someone with a brain.


His only 'mistake' was not warping to an auto-warp off location.

Keep this in mind;
- He was in high sec in a random system
- He was picking up a courier contract
- He was flying one of the expensive transport ship


The problem is;
-It's not a simple task to get auto-warp off bookmarks for every location in highsec/lowsec/null - there are thousands of them and courier contract can take you just about anywhere.
-Cov ops Transport is agile and quick. It's survivability is through its ability to get out of situation fast, but obviously the Tornado was faster and locking and shooting. It seems a bit unfair considering the align time for a transport ship is 5 seconds.
-Being a random system in highsec, you don't expect it.

Let me repeat this though to make it clear; the isk limit for ganking a transport ship is -too- low now. The point of raising the hit point of transport ship is to raise that isk limit in highsec. The reason why I said 200mil, is because that's the current breakpoint; a tornado fit is around 100mil. If you find a transport ship with 200mil worth, then it will on average drop half of that. 200 mil is too small an amount.
Raising the hit point of transport ships does not make them invincible. If you catch one, it's still going to die, it will just take a little longer.


You don't want to get it. do you.
As a skillful Ganker i claim to know the situation very well.
Your buddy made tones of mistake.
1. there is no safe in space
2. he didn't prepare, instead of fitting a tank he wilded cargo rigs and cargo expanders on there,
see the trade off,more tank = less cargo | more cargo less tank
3. any ship can cloak faster then a tornado can target it. if you're paying attention.
4. super secret insider ****, avoid main travel routs and use bookmarkt in station docking range - you'll understand why if we evr meet
5. use the I WIN BUTON and put stuff in orca corp hangars,

tears tears he couldn't react, its high-sec its do or die, risk on both sides, if the tornado can't one hit him the tornado dies.

With these steps you can avoid some skillles Gankers, not me of course. but stop whining, you know the deal with the transport ships, if you don't want to take a risk then fly low value stuff more often or make a courier contract or get out and give me all you'r phat stuff.


Lorth Kelser
Phoenix Propulsion Labs
#22 - 2011-12-12 15:49:31 UTC
They are fine the way they are. I have lost a few it happens and most the time I have learned from my mistakes. Sounds like maybe he need to rethink what he is doing and look for a way to avoid the problem next time. I have docked in station in high sec got in my pod and made a insta-warp before it cost me time maybe time I didnt need to spend but it didnt cost me a ship.
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2011-12-12 18:02:03 UTC
EVE could use some serious discussion about ship balance.

What is the correct hit point for a transport ship? 1? 1000? 10000? a billion?

By itself, it's only a number. It has no meaning without a context. So what's the other important number? Damage. If you know the damage, then you can set the hit point according to how long you want the ship to survive in certain situations.

What is the concept behind the transport ships though? What I'm reading from most people in this thread is that a Cov Ops transport -should- die in a single hit. It's not meant to be hit at all. If that's the intention, then fine, it's working as intended.

However, where's the other options for haulers? Is it possible to have Transport ship that can survive for 1 minute against a tornado? It's not like Transport ships are cheap. Transport ship sell at around 100mil isk.

For reference, a tornado has a volley damage of 11k at skill V with 1400 arties.


I don't fly Transport ships yet, but I will - I have to say though, the Transport ships are underwhelming. For tech 2 version of the hauler, they don't have so much to offer. The Cov ops transport is likely the best for dangerous hauling, but that comes at the sacrifice of cargo, and yet it still has low hp. Cargo on Cov ops transport is 3-10k and the basic hp is 8-30k. More hp also means less speed, agility and cargo.

Here's Poetic's blog http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2011/12/hauling-using-nullsec-scout.html
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#24 - 2011-12-12 18:11:46 UTC
Cap Tyrian wrote:
Blockade Runner are fast and cloaky. Deep Space Transporters are hard to kill.


I think perhaps part of the problem here is that the second bit isn't really true.

thhief ghabmoef

Plyn
Uncharted.
#25 - 2011-12-12 20:23:11 UTC
Nice lists of mistakes, but you guys left one out:

Always be wary of courier contracts. Gankers create these for the specific purpose of killing you. They know where you're going to undock, they know where you're going, they know what you have in your hold ahead of time. You pay collateral which you then don't get back, and they get to take the loot anyways.

You know where you are picking the contract up at ahead of time too. Dock when you get there, get that frigate you should have packed in out, undock and go fix some coffee. When you get back bookmark and re-dock. Don't have to make one for every station when you know EXACTLY where you'll be going anyways.

Another fun way to annoy gankers trying this tactic: Dock up at the station wait a few minutes, then undock in an iteron I. They gank your crapdustrial, get concordookened, then you undock in the real mccoy with no issues.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
#26 - 2011-12-12 20:24:40 UTC
As in my previous thread on the subject, I just think the active tanked bonuses on all Transports are very misplaced as NO ONE with a brain actually fits any transport to actively tank anything.

A passive fit Bustard however is quite hilarious getting aggro in high end anoms I am told.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Lucjan
Deutzer Freiheit
#27 - 2011-12-12 21:41:59 UTC
I can't agree on the more hitpoints suggestion for Blackade Runners as I don't see a need for it. The ship needs a weakness and that should be it. If you can't get away with a covert cloaky + 10mn micro and it's < 10 ships on the gate you need more practice.

The cargo value argument doesn't make sense to me. Risk VS Reward is forever in play.



Interdiction Nullifier addition for the tier II transport ships is very good idea. Their armor bonuses can then be put to the test as they take fire while trying to get to warp speed. if you have 5 stabs you should be safe if you can take the damage.

And they will retain one natural enemy, the Heavy Interdictor, to which there is no cure to unlimited warp scramble strength (focused) no matter how many warp stabs you equip.

This might expand trade in 0.0 as well because it will be safe for non-jump ships to travel with large loads.

Obviously no nullifier for the Blockade Runners as that would just make them too unfair.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2011-12-12 23:25:47 UTC
Blockade runners don't need buffs. R-click > warp > F1
Why can't you do that?

DSTs on the other hand fail badly at their intended purpose of transporting in 'deep space' and need some sort of buff to give it the survivability of a properly flown blockade runner.
Nikollai Tesla
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-12-13 00:20:56 UTC
Tahna Rouspel wrote:

Keep this in mind;
- He was in high sec in a random system
- He was picking up a courier contract



Stopped reading at this point, when he signed the contract he signed his own death. The collateral of the courrier was probably much higher than the cost of the Tornado+Garbage loot. Pirate waits outside station ready to gank those we accept contract.
Artreju Woodsparrow
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2011-12-13 07:00:51 UTC
i wanted +1 Warpstrength per Skill not for the Cloaky ones ^^, but nvm that will never happen. For me the Tech2 Transport isnt worth 100+mil with only benefit from +2 Warpstrength and bit more HP/Resi and no bigger Cargo.
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#31 - 2011-12-13 09:55:56 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
As in my previous thread on the subject, I just think the active tanked bonuses on all Transports are very misplaced as NO ONE with a brain actually fits any transport to actively tank anything.

A passive fit Bustard however is quite hilarious getting aggro in high end anoms I am told.


Thanks, I accept, i'm brain less ;-)

take a DST and fit its lowslots with bulkheads and a damage control II and you get a serious amount of HP + Resis. Also some surprise for hulltanking ;-) (Hull reppers are very slow but good to clean up the mess afterwards)

Fit an occator with T2 Repper, dmg control, Hardeners / erng. Platings and an armorplate and you also get a decent amount of EHP. Add some Tank supporting rigs (buffer or rep bonus).

Last time i checked that could hold of a lot of dmg. Repping away a Torp fitted raven and even sustaining some volleys of alpha BS setup.

Not so sure about the number but after undocking you are invulnerable for 20 or 30 seconds or until you change the course of your ship. you can stop your ship without loosing the invu timer.
If you get shot out of station and it's not in your warp direction stop ship, warp off to a celestial or have a save bm. stopping ship will allow you to align faster without drifting around but you cold be bounced. Celestial might be a bit obvious but using something between 10 and 100 km warp distance should limit the risk the enemy is waiting there.
If you are in a low traffic system use the 20 sec do get out of rang for cloaks and hit the MWD short before the time is over. You should be able to cloak pretty fast after hitting mwd, if not it might not be a so low traffic system.


One thing i would like to see a change concerning Logistics is that the Freighter should get an industrial SMA like the Rorqual so it can take a fitted Hauler with it. Freighter can stay on the main route while you collect the small stuff in off road systems.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-12-13 10:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
Although not very friendly brought, your buddy made the mistakes mentioned above.

Some are rather comon, low and 0 sec flyers tend to get sloppy when in Highsec, because they don't expect it.

Personaly I tent avoid the use of Cloaky Blockade Runners in Hi Sec as much as possible. It's like putting your expansive Television set in front of the window so every passing person with burgulary intentions can see it. Not to mention a strong tank works better in hi sec.

and when using the transport (a Crane in my case) I go for aggilaty and speed instead of cargohold. 2 T2 nano's and 2 T1 med low friction nozzile's instead of cargohold extenders. Keeps you safe in almost any situation, a fair chance at escape in bubbles as long as you stay sharp.

That's the cost you pay, though goodluck trying to target me when leaving a station.

Note with crucible you get 30 sec invunrability when leaving the station and you're able to redock in 20.

edit: Only when using a covert-opps Cryo I risk cargo extenders over nano's then change them on the last station before hi sec and make that run a couple of times, or let the escort scout the last jumps.
Averyia
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2011-12-14 15:29:26 UTC
Wait, you are dying in a blockade runner in high sec?

Wow, i find this interesting. I've never lost one in 0.0, lost one in low sec due to lag, and you've apparently been one shot in high sec. Do you realize what this means?

The ability of the blockade runner to avoid destruction is indirectly proportional to the security rating of the system you're in.

All warfare is based on deception and logistics. Battles and soldiers are secondary priorities.

el alasar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2011-12-15 18:19:25 UTC
while i have to agree with Tippia, Cap Tyrian and others, i do think eve would benefit if HP of ALL ships were increased.

check the moderated 10000 papercuts evelopedia page! http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Little_things_and_ideas_-_low_hanging_fruit_-_10000_papercuts comment, bump(!) and like what you like

Mag's
Azn Empire
#35 - 2011-12-15 19:31:57 UTC
My alt has had the same BR since they could fit a cloak. It's fitted for full cargo too, including tech2 rigs.

Therefore I do not agree with the OP.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Velicitia
XS Tech
#36 - 2011-12-15 20:14:07 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:

Note with crucible you get 30 sec invunrability when leaving the station and you're able to redock in 20.



So they changed this too? Shocked
Nice, used to be 30/30.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#37 - 2011-12-16 09:11:19 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:

Note with crucible you get 30 sec invunrability when leaving the station and you're able to redock in 20.



So they changed this too? Shocked
Nice, used to be 30/30.


yes it was 30/30. but the invu timer is independent from the session change timer. And the Session change timer is the one which prevented you from docking. And the session timer has been changed to 20 sec.
mnybag1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2011-12-16 15:04:40 UTC
Artreju Woodsparrow wrote:
i wanted +1 Warpstrength per Skill not for the Cloaky ones ^^, but nvm that will never happen. For me the Tech2 Transport isnt worth 100+mil with only benefit from +2 Warpstrength and bit more HP/Resi and no bigger Cargo.


You get MUCH bigger cargo. With a Viator i max out at about 10.5km3 with t1 rigs and t2 cargo expanders. With an occalator you can get 35km3 with the same set up but with 2 warp stabs built in. Throw some invuls in the mids after your MWD and you will not be easy to kill before you wave as you warp away.

I love DST for fueling my low sec POSes, however, they are lacking something to make them useful in null. I think the interdiction nullifier would be a good buff to make them viable in null.
Hiryu Jin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-12-16 19:27:03 UTC
Most people already know this, but a DST can do the mwd/cloak trick, too. It just takes a little practice.
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#40 - 2012-01-01 06:59:21 UTC
For the record, you cannot cloak while undocking. You are usually too close and the cloak will fail. You must have an Undock Instant Bookmark to get away from the station before the undock invulnerability wears off then cloak up.
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