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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Yuri Thorpe
Volatile Restability
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#4501 - 2014-10-02 23:45:42 UTC
"Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone in particular."
Orbicular
Full Mental Jacket
#4502 - 2014-10-02 23:46:40 UTC
Eats popcorn with anticipation

Let's hope the larger alliances will adapt. I'd hate to see so many capsuleers quit because their game just got a whole lot more interesting.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#4503 - 2014-10-02 23:46:51 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Innominate wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

That's a question I'd suggest you ask your leaders, not us.


Are you seriously blaming the the players for playing the game as it is designed?

Given that the players decide what goals to pursue and how, yes. I think it's entirely appropriate to do so.



This. I keep hearing well its the mechanics that make and allow us to do it. Just because the rules/mechanics allow(ed) it doesn't mean you have to say well lets push it till it breaks.


Funny, hopefully, rl analogy. Let's say you have a good other half (gf/bf. wife/husband). So good they say if you just want to go out with your friends anytime go ahead.

If you use this free pass once in while its all good. Its when you using a lot....that other half starts to change their stance on this. They kind of want you spending time with them at least occasionally.

Call it a trap, sometimes when they say yes, it means I am seeing you if you to the right thing I really want you to do and show some restraint.



Applied to eve. Eve gave the convenience of open jumping around. And some/many abused this. we are being roamed by bc's and hacs what do we do.....hot drop them of course. Or others roaming with the caps and supers for dynamite fishing trips.

Current and soon to be gone way made this possible. Just blinked through 3 systems to do whatever (fish or pve) and if you got the gas, blink 3 more times.


New system....some time added to this. Some may have to, gasp, use gates. this may have been avoided if the hot drop button was not pressed so much. Yes the mechanics allowed it. Didn't mean they had to use it every damn time though.

Another real life anaiogy. My boss knows we don't nickel and dime on OT/comptime. something goes to 10 minutes past official end of day, we tend to not submit requests for compensation for this small crap. He also does not go ape crap when we come in 5 minutes late in the morning, or from lunch from time to time. Now if I pushed this and came in late all the time....now we'd have a problem.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4504 - 2014-10-02 23:46:53 UTC
Sienna Toth wrote:
Grayscales fundamental premise is flawed.

In general the speed of transport with a jumpship is not a factor in jumpship decisions. I may miss a few but fundamentally there are 2 reasons to make a jump.

1) Safety - Jumpships bypass the gatecamps.
2) Tactical surprise - bring overwhelming firepower to bare in a short amount of time.

Speed of movement is simply not a consideration.

You're smoking something good if you think that travel time isn't a consideration.

The ability of APEX FORCE to rapidly move across the map is a major contributing factor to the stagnation of nullsec.

Moreover, the overwhelming majority of complaints about the change is that it hardcaps travel time over long distances.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#4505 - 2014-10-02 23:47:19 UTC
Querns wrote:
Marian Devers wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
You havent been playing long enough then. I have seen them make reasonable compromises. Ive seen them make unreasonable ones too. They have given us ample time to give feed back on the changes. So you can continue to be negative or post constructively like many others and work with them. CCP will listen, sadly a lot of changes happen because too much of the player base is silent.


Starting with the AF changes CCP have continuously ignored all player feedback. Feedback that warned them about the negative repercussions, and eventually came to pass.

The only exception was Greed is Good and the Gold Magnate. Neither of which dealt with gameplay per se.

Did you miss the part where, in this very thread, they addressed the potential New Player Experience issue with podjumping by allowing new players to podjump? The change that was directly related to feedback?

I guess if you ignore all feedback but the kind you agree with, your statement is true.



Why not just use a rorq and put the clones in there and jump out the rorq to CFC space and then JC there?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Omanth Bathana
Doomheim
#4506 - 2014-10-02 23:47:37 UTC
Demetri Slavic wrote:
As a leader in a Merc alliance, Im interested if the nerf to the ability to move large quantities of Rigged Ships is intended.

Combat wise, I love these changes. But trying to figure out how long it will take to move 30million m3 of rigged ships 30LY with 10 carriers makes me cry.


Moving millions of m3 of rigged ships quickly over long distances is actually exactly what this change is designed to prevent. Hope you like waiting for timers to expire!

The fundamental problem here is that this change introduces massive quality of life obstacles to nullsec players without also providing commensurate rewards for those players. Nullsec stagnation will go away on its own when the incentives to control massive amounts of space are reduced and nullsec systems are realistically capable of supporting reasonable populations.

Wiser men than me have addressed why this will only harm the little guy that CCP claims to be supporting. This change does nothing that isk and sp can't get around. Hope you like Infomorph skills being mandatory the same way learning skills were.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4507 - 2014-10-02 23:47:40 UTC
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
"Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone in particular."

Fixed that for you.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#4508 - 2014-10-02 23:47:43 UTC
Utopia Atheras wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Can supers use gates after this change?
Yes.

Does this make it too difficult for new pilots to get out into 0.0?
Yes, it probably does. Following further discussion after publishing this dev blog, we have come up with the following additional feature:

For players less than thirty days old, once per player corporation joined, or
For all players greater than thirty days old, once per year:

You may push a button in your corp interface (while a member of a player corp and docked) that:
• Moves your medical clone to a station designated by your corporation, and
• Then moves you to the (new) station containing your medical clone

Exact method of corporations designating target station still being ironed out, but it will involve at the very least being able to designate a default station for all corp members, and will likely be allowed for *any* station with a corp office, regardless of system sec status. This seems to us like it solves the "I want to recruit people to Nullsec" concern, and also gives non-Nullsec recruiters an easier way to get genuinely new players to the right location easily.


Is the balance for Black Ops final?
No. Please give feedback!

Very large fatigue values will take a loooong time to decay, is this too much?
Possibly yes, we'll have a look at this.

Does a titan providing a bridge gain fatigue when people jump through it?
No. Only if the titan itself jumps.

Is the ability to push your fatigue up to really high numbers a good idea?
Probably not, no. We're looking at just capping fatigue at like 1 month or something.



Please take a moment to sign the petition:

http://www.change.org/p/riot-games-hire-ccp-greyscale-ccp-fozzie



You forgot to put Rise on there as well, I'm not convinced he's good for the game.
Aerich e'Kieron
Peace.Keepers
#4509 - 2014-10-02 23:48:07 UTC
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
Aerich e'Kieron wrote:
Jeyz Vega wrote:
There is not a single pro-argument for this crap. It helps NO ONE, and screws all.


Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone in particular.
The time are changing, roll with it.

How about the traders that go to null to sell things?
How about the people who work at black frog and pushX?
What about the indy guys?
Tell me more about it hurts no one...

1. They make more isk, since there will be fewer willing to make the effort.
2. They make more isk, since their jump timers have value they can charge for.
3. They make more isk, since they can pass on their increased costs to their customers at a reasonable markup.

Seems like good things to me...

That hurts someone that has to pay for that, it always hurts someone



It doesn't "hurt" them. It means moving large volumes/masses long distances becomes more unwieldy, and less reasonable.
Thusly, more expensive.

Helping to increase the "size" of the "map".
Cornette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4510 - 2014-10-02 23:48:22 UTC
A pristine river of nullsec tears in this thread /me drink

These are outstanding changes to the stagnant nullsec that will sure break up the massive power blocks into a lot more smaller entities. I fully approve of this.

Being a old player I remember the old days before Capitals Online when you had to convoy your stuff through multiple gates and regions (some of them hostile) to your home in the distant system near the end of the map. What a thrill that was. Distance will finally mean something again.

The only part I don't agree with is that caps and supercaps will be allowed to use gates. Carrier gangs sitting on gates will be a common occurrence that will no longer (mostly) be easily countered by dropping your own capitals on them. Some regions will become virtually unassailable fortresses because of this. CCP please think this over again.

As for those people who whine and threaten to quit. please donate your stuff to a random newbie in the starter systems before you go. I don't want your stuff, it's just pixels anyway.


Now we just need for outposts to be destructible and the game will be a lot better Twisted


Oh and don't let jumpfreighters of the nerfbat. They need to be hit equally hard!
Ravenssong
Yeti Galactic
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
#4511 - 2014-10-02 23:48:27 UTC
Aerich e'Kieron wrote:
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
Aerich e'Kieron wrote:
Jeyz Vega wrote:
There is not a single pro-argument for this crap. It helps NO ONE, and screws all.


Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone in particular.
The time are changing, roll with it.

How about the traders that go to null to sell things?
How about the people who work at black frog and pushX?
What about the indy guys?
Tell me more about it hurts no one...



These services charge people because they go to the effort of moving your stuff for you, no?
If the effort involved increases.... they could always... you know... charge more for their service.

The amount of effort involved to move stuff around isn't dependent on what type of player is moving the stuff lol.
It's just as much work for the individual, even more so. And so the value of moving someone's stuff a long distance increases.
That part of the problem is a non-issue.

If the problem lies with them being cut off from npc pirate space, then it also continue there. The players wanting to move stuff into that space can't move it there with a jump drive either. And again, PushX and Frogs can charge more for moving to that location, or refuse to do the job entirely, if they so choose.


That is the way of capitalism. So yeah, they just charge YOU more.
Yuri Thorpe
Volatile Restability
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#4512 - 2014-10-02 23:48:58 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
"Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone in particular."

Fixed that for you.

"Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone"


There we go
Murauke
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#4513 - 2014-10-02 23:49:57 UTC
Dear CCP in light of the recent suggestions of Long distance Travel changes can I suggest you look more specifically at the cyno mechanic. I think you have seriously overlooked this incredibly important aspect of being able to project forces. a few round table sessions on this specific role would provide a more acceptable way forward.
SanDooD
Perkone
Caldari State
#4514 - 2014-10-02 23:50:00 UTC
Welcome to the "Endgame" , or rather "End of game" Twisted
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4515 - 2014-10-02 23:51:05 UTC
What great changes to be coming back to now I can play again. Eve might just have hope yet!
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#4516 - 2014-10-02 23:51:11 UTC
Brittney Calm wrote:
I can see FC's going hey if you were on the OP earlier this week you will have to sit this one out. Or X in fleet if you have fatigue and cant go on todays op..

Suddenly fleet #'s go from 100+ down to 50 or less in seconds.

They should have in fleet window for FC's a check by pilots that cannot jump so fc can kick them from fleet.

Another thought is will TIDI in a big cap fleet affect fatigue, since everything for example is at 10% would a normal 6 minutes to be able to jump turn into 60+ minutes?

-BC


Because of return jump(s) it needs to be more quantitative that just go/no go. But absolutely the FC's need something.
Suzuka A1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4517 - 2014-10-02 23:51:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Suzuka A1
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Cr Turist wrote:


ok i guess what im saying is your target is absurd. with all the time people have spent getting into these ships i think and most of the people i am speaking to agree 10mins is more than acceptable. most major super cap fights take 4 mids at least 40 mins to go 4 mids seems pritty crazy but better than what u have proposed


A major goal of this change is to make you not take your supercap that sort of distance on a regular basis. If the changes are making you say "OK, I'm never taking my super long distances ever again", that means they're actually working.



Well then why not make ships use more fuel after each consecutive 5ly jump? Some multiplier would scale based on the number of jumps (First jump x0.75, x1.5, x3, 4th jump x6) with one of your beloved arbitrary cooldown timers. This would seem more straight forward (K.I.S.S. principle). (Note: The numbers are just an example, don't freak out people.)

Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H  What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4518 - 2014-10-02 23:51:17 UTC
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
"Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone in particular."

Fixed that for you.

"Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone"
There we go

In which case you're wrong, but hey - let's not let little things like staying true to the original statements we're discussing get in the way of supporting our own viewpoints, shall we?

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#4519 - 2014-10-02 23:51:41 UTC
smokeydapot wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Looking forward to getting this significant set of improvements for Nullsec released!

Big thanks to the whole CSM for their help with this process so far and the good work I know they'll continue to do as we consult with them going forward.

I want to remind people that this is just one step. We're not expecting it to fix everything overnight but it will be a very valuable step forward that we will keep building upon.


CCP Greyscale wrote:
Black ops we will look at again, definitely. Can't say what we'll decide, but it's clear from the discussion thus far that they need another pass.


To quote a previous dev from a news story i’ve just been reading I don’t hold my breath for future iterations of this “feature” this is also based on previous years of experience with eve and the devs of old and new.

previous dev wrote:
Without the time or resources to properly do so, many things were left half-delivered, to be iterated upon later – which never happened. CCP has an extensive track record of promising to return to features and never doing so


News article

My confidence is at an all time low in the belief that this "feature" will be visited upon any time within the next 5 years and they where working on 6 month schedules.

I see a future of battle rorqs and mass black ops fleets it looks funny but an industrial and a T2 BS projecting force rarther than capitals no that just sounds wrong to me.


If your really set on hitting jump drives hit them ALL before we end up with more "unintended gameplay".

Waits for the tears of the HTFU crowdCoolCoolCool


This however is the point of the new release cycle. It means that a team that did a feature can follow it and make changes based on what they are seeing. We JUST had them do another pass over the ceptors because they needed some tweeking, they also revisted the nestor rescently as well and made a few minor adjustments there. In addition we should see a second pass of industry soon with the invention and RE changes, as well as a few other things that have been revised. The old 6 month cycle made doing a second pass extremely difficult, in theory the new cycle makes doing a second or more pass very easy. I am quite happy with CCP's direction atm.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Yuri Thorpe
Volatile Restability
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#4520 - 2014-10-02 23:51:53 UTC
Murauke wrote:
Dear CCP in light of the recent suggestions of Long distance Travel changes can I suggest you look more specifically at the cyno mechanic. I think you have seriously overlooked this incredibly important aspect of being able to project forces. a few round table sessions on this specific role would provide a more acceptable way forward.

If they really wanted to, they could jack the fitting price way up so BC and above could only manage to fit it