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[Q] On capital power projection

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Solecist Project
#21 - 2014-10-02 00:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
I believe that CCP is looking at this from the wrong perspective.

Completely off, actually.


At least I hope so, because .....



When you compensate with more alts ...


... PLEX are going through the roof.




Right? *snickers xD*



And the character market for cap pilots will dry out.





one billion ISK seems like a huge underestimation here ...........


.....




Oh and I'm checking out the new notification system right now.

FaceBook, if you think about it................


They'll probably "streamline" the whole interface within the next year?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Solecist Project
#22 - 2014-10-02 00:51:20 UTC
511 !

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
TharOkha
0asis Group
#23 - 2014-10-02 04:28:45 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Dunk Dinkle wrote:


It takes about 45 minutes on average to get the cyno alt positioned, jump in, unload, put things up on contracts/market, reposition cyno, jump back home.

Do you consider this 'power projection' as it is widely referred to in the discussion of null sec issues?


Power projection means that you can move your super capital fleet + sub-capital ships from one side of galaxy to another within few minutes. it all depends how your cyno chain is set up.

Quote:

Do you consider this capability in terms of cost and time commitment to be game breaking, reasonable, or too hard/boring?


Yes, because current mechanics allows it. just because you or your alliance dont use full potential of PP doesnt mean current mechanic is OK

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-10-02 04:41:59 UTC
Currently on a tablet, but CCP said something about caps now able to use gates in low or null. Gate camp buff, to choke point your enemy caps to death. No more session change wait hot drops from across the map instantly, at best the enemy alliance will have to move the fleet days in advance which allows third parties to get in on the killmail before the blob battles. Of course I see it as a buff to player account numbers, CCP's wallet, and PLEX consumption as well as more cap/freighter pilot training/trading cause nothing said the new timer affects the pilot and not the ship aka trade cap ships to second account and keep on trucking.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#25 - 2014-10-02 05:33:19 UTC
Removed some off topic posts.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-10-02 06:36:21 UTC
Torneach Structor wrote:
Bort Malice wrote:
Torneach Structor wrote:
The biggest thing to consider is that you can't just take this one change by itself - there are other things on the way that will counterbalance the nerf to jump range and frequency and (ideally) make it so there isn't a need to jump around so much.

Hopefully CCP won't screw things up too badly and it'll all work out in the end.

Oh, and also I hear they'll be letting capitals use gates, so that will help.


Oh yay.

Instead of Bridging my Blockies back to Low and a single jump to high, I have to fly 14 jumps through gates now camped by Supers.

Thats... helpful.

I was speaking about the OP, really.

But for your style of operation, there might be something for you in the later releases (although it might be better to do them all at once instead of piecemeal).

Mainly the addition of NPC stations/systems and occupancy-based sov, resulting in some relatively safe places for you to set up a base while waiting for the cooldowns.

It does make things more complicated for you, though, that's for sure, and I hope you find a way to adapt - what you do sounds super nifty, actually.

Chances are the NPC stations will just put us right back to where we are now, sicne the curent mega alliances will just move their base of operations to the nearest invincible, un-lockoutable station and project their forces from there, which will bring us right back to the current state of "no room for new guys in null"
TharOkha
0asis Group
#27 - 2014-10-02 16:10:01 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
[
Chances are the NPC stations will just put us right back to where we are now, sicne the curent mega alliances will just move their base of operations to the nearest invincible, un-lockoutable station and project their forces from there, which will bring us right back to the current state of "no room for new guys in null"


did you know that anyone can dock in those nearest invincible, un-lockoutable stations and project their forces from there too?

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Solecist Project
#28 - 2014-10-02 16:29:17 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
[
Chances are the NPC stations will just put us right back to where we are now, sicne the curent mega alliances will just move their base of operations to the nearest invincible, un-lockoutable station and project their forces from there, which will bring us right back to the current state of "no room for new guys in null"


did you know that anyone can dock in those nearest invincible, un-lockoutable stations and project their forces from there too?

How does that change anything for the small guy?
There's still hundreds of goons (i use that synonymous now lol) in the hangers to the left, right, top, bottom.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Kaaeliaa
Tyrannos Sunset
#29 - 2014-10-02 22:37:45 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
There once was a pilot in space,
from the proud amarrian race.

He suffered his fate ...
... and warped gate to gate ...

... until he logged off, not even worth bait.


Perfect addition to a QQ thread. :D

"Do not lift the veil. Do not show the door. Do not split the dream."
Solecist Project
#30 - 2014-10-02 22:59:05 UTC
Kaaeliaa wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
There once was a pilot in space,
from the proud amarrian race.

He suffered his fate ...
... and warped gate to gate ...

... until he logged off, not even worth bait.


Perfect addition to a QQ thread. :D



Not sure about the cries.
In the end it will change exactly nothing anyway.


... and ten thousand goons laughed off their asses. ^_^

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Dunk Dinkle
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#31 - 2014-10-02 23:32:15 UTC
Well, I posted this the morning before the dev blog was posted.

It's kind of moot now.

Carriers won't be used to carry ships any more it appears and this kind of basic logistics is getting much harder.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#32 - 2014-10-02 23:34:18 UTC
Dunk Dinkle wrote:
My most common use of a carrier (2-3 times per week) is jumping fitted ships into a system nearby and putting them up on contracts. We are having active sub-cap fights nearby and this is to resupply fleets.

I can carry in ~10 cruisers or a bunch of frigates or a couple BCs or battleships, usually a mixture depending on what's needed. I can also carry a limited number of needed modules (cynos, cloaks, prop mods, etc.) for the market.

The jump is ~11 light years and costs about 20 million ISK in fuel for a round trip.


So under the new system you're looking at three jumps each way, each less than 5LY. Let's say it's three even jumps of 4LY.

Jump Fatigue *= (1+ LY travelled)
Jump Cooldown = max(JF, 1 + LY travelled) minutes

Jump 1: 5 minutes cool down, 5 Jump Fatigue (after cool down, JF is 4.5)
Jump 2: 5 minutes cool down, 18 JF (4.5 * 4) (after cool down, JF is 17.5)
Jump 3: 17:30 cool down, 70 JF (17.5 * 4)

Total trip time, 10 minutes. To remove that 70 JF you need 700 minutes, 11h40.

What if you wait 10 minutes at each stop?

Jump 1: 5 minutes cool down, 5 jump fatigue (after 10 min, JF is 4)
Jump 2: 5 minutes cool down, 16 JF (4 * 4) (after 10 min, JF is 15)
Jump 3: 15 minutes cool down, 60 JF

Total trip time 20 minutes, with a 10h wait until JF is entirely gone. So jump up to market in the morning, bring the goods down that night.

So you could, as a hypothetical example, carry a lot of spare fuel and ammo and drop those off at the stations you visit along the way. Post those on the market, and turn the jump fatigue waiting time into an opportunity.

Another option is to post buy orders for the goods you want at a convenient "half way" point and ensure that those buy orders are populated to EVE Central or similar. Reduce the number of jumps you make by paying someone else to make trips for you.

There's also the option of having your corp actively seek out wormholes connecting your space to systems closer to your market. Using wormholes and stargates instead of doing all travel through cynosural jumps will save you one or two jumps, thus reducing your jump fatigue.

In the meantime, get well rehearsed in the practise of webifying large slow ships into warp. Rapiers are good scouts since they are cloaky recons, with a range bonus on webs meaning there is very little delay from the decloaking of your carrier to the time the Rapier can apply webs. Turn the logistics run into a corp activity, and the corp will come to understand just what's involved with running materiel logistics operations. Jump fatigue is tied to the character, not the ship. Maybe some of the corp can help?

Remember that part of the aim of this change is to create more content. Content in EVE is things like spaceships shooting at other spaceships, or diplomats firing off salvos of rhetoric at other diplomats. If you have no risk, you have no content. Sure, you may not want that content to be people blowing up your carrier, but that's where you have to be smart.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-10-03 02:01:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Desimus Maximus
First, you can fit vastly more in a JF (packaged of course, but more none-the-less).

Second, JF will have the effects reduced by 90%... meaning they will be virtually untouched by fatigue.

Third, you can go as far as u want w/o fuel costs or fatigue... just use gates Twisted
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#34 - 2014-10-03 06:41:55 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:



They'll probably "streamline" the whole interface within the next year?


They actually been doing that for years now. Even the neocom itself got an overhaul in Crucible. Item hanger changed up in Inferno. And Crius more recently redoing the whole industry window.

The next ones up I think are corp and alliance management.



To the OP, I say yes. I'm of the school of thought that would prefer that 90% of ships used in null are also built in null. CCP's already buffed the hell out of that for you with Crius and these jump changes are exactly what was needed to make logistical transporting so much less trivial that the larger groups might actually start building things locally to avoid the logistical hassle.

At the same time the power projection as far as getting an entire fleet from one side of the universe to the other in no time flat is another major concern that is being addressed here.

The Drake is a Lie
Dunk Dinkle
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#35 - 2014-10-03 14:48:05 UTC
[quote=Mara Rinn
So under the new system you're looking at three jumps each way, each less than 5LY. Let's say it's three even jumps of 4LY.
[/quote]

I'm not even bothered by the jump fatigue stuff.

But three jumps requires three cynos, each way. With the deathclone change, I can no longer re-position cyno alts. I would have to fly the alts (after waiting out the cyno timer itself) to each new station, hoping I don't get caught at any point.

So calculate that into your timing as well.

Again, the point is that this straightforward task, that already took time and two accounts, is now 10x harder. There is no reward for the increased pain.
Dunk Dinkle
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#36 - 2014-10-03 14:50:20 UTC
Desimus Maximus wrote:
First, you can fit vastly more in a JF (packaged of course, but more none-the-less).

Second, JF will have the effects reduced by 90%... meaning they will be virtually untouched by fatigue.

Third, you can go as far as u want w/o fuel costs or fatigue... just use gates Twisted


So are you going to give the me the 7 billion for a jump freighter?

Or plex to run the accounts for cynos needed for 3 mid-points?

And should we change the name of carriers since they aren't intended to carry ships anymore?
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