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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3461 - 2014-10-02 15:58:28 UTC
Viktor Raybach wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Ivory Kantenu wrote:
You're ENCOURAGING people to not want to deploy by making things into a logistical headache for any force, be it large or small. Small guerrilla warfare is sadly NOT the lifeblood of Null, and this isn't going to help the issue.

In addition, the addition to this to Jump Bridges is just silly. You're basically making it so anything with multiple, large regions will have to wait to defend their space in a hurry?


Yes, and yes. Both deliberately.




Large fleet fights are, for many people, the reason to be in null and not in low sec/faction warfare/wormholes.

I've seen nothing that suggests these changes will increase the number of large fleet fights, if anything it will see a reduction as the effort for other entities to attack in significant numbers is exponentially increased.

Have you given this any thought, and if so can you explain in what way you think this will increase the number of large fleet fights, which are a prominent and popular aspect of null sec sov holding, given that it appears on the surface that these changes do the opposite.


The thing to note here is that CCP is "intentionally" making things into a headache in EVE. This is clearly a step backwards when they say "we're adding more headaches to the game," especially to prevent precisely the activity EVE is centered around - shooting spaceships.
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3462 - 2014-10-02 15:58:33 UTC
Querns wrote:


Also, I propose nerfing Jump Drive Calibration somewhat -- with the current proposal, caps have a base 2.22 LY jump range, which gets extended to 5 with JDC 5. I'd recommend drastically reducing JDC to 5% per level (currently 25%) and bumping base range to 4. This makes caps a lot more useful without a 37d train tacked on.


I Agree with this. or just have the calibration skill relate to a 5% reduction in fatigue gain, and have all caps just set to 5LY
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3463 - 2014-10-02 15:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Retar Aveymone
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Jump length distance has almost no impact on travel time, number of midpoints is largely irrelevant to travel time when fatigue is a factor.

Yeah, uh, that's not true for jump freighters and midpoints are entirely driving their fatigue. Let us suppose I was going to jump 15LY.

5LY range:
I make my 5LY jump freighter jump. With the 90% reduction, I get a fatigue and cooldown of 1m , + 30s for the LY jump (5m base, 90% reduction = 30s). I wait out my cooldown (plus 30s, so I wait two minutes - just to make the math easier). I jump. My fatigue has dropped to 1.3

I make my second 5LY jump freighter jump. I get 1.3 fatigue * 1.5, or 1.95. I again wait two minutes, which clears my cooldown, my fatigue is now 1.75

I make my third and final jump, fatigue is 1.75*1.5=2.625.

Let us say I had 15LY range.

I jump. I have made an 'effective' jump of 1.5 LY. My fatigue is 2.5.

Because you've made me midpoint, I have waited four minutes on cooldowns, and have 15 minutes more fatigue. However, even more interestingly, 40% of my fatigue, minimum, is because of the mere fact of a jump rather than because of the LY traveled.

Actually come to think of it, I didn't realize just how ******* hard jump freighters get shafted on these changes: the fatigue bonus still means you're taking TWO AND A HALF HOURS to sit and wait after a single jump freighter run of 15LY. So uh...well yes, I suppose in the scheme of things my wasted 20 minutes from the midpointing is a mere 26% increase. Obviously that's not 'largely irrelevant' - 26% is a jump. But that really exposes how vastly you've increased the distance when it comes to jump freightering.

Also, assuming I only do one run then stop (so ending fatigue decays without me) you've actually increased my travel time by a considerable amount because of midpointing.

I'm going to do some more math on this but it seems like these are way more vicious nerfs to jump freighters than I'd thought. It essentially ends the ability to do multiple runs.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#3464 - 2014-10-02 15:58:57 UTC
Great changes CCP!
Finally I might get a reason to buy and fly a Capital myself!
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#3465 - 2014-10-02 15:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
I still don't get why people want blackops to be affected to some degree by these changes.

A good black ops costs almost as much as a carrier, but only has a fraction of the tank, dps, and next to no repping potential... If huge sov groups want to use black ops to defend their huge empires, first I'd say that given the skills requirements, they earned it. And second, between facing groups of supercaps and facing groups of black ops, I know what I'm going to pick :D

As the Clarion Call 4 video said, there is only so much you can squeeze out of a BS. Especially not the most tankiest ones.

So yeah.. Nerfing Black Ops? I don't get the point.



About jump drive changes in general, people seem to forget that the most optimal solution will not be to reach a huge fatigue and THEN start to use gates. The most optimal solution will probably be to use gates and then use jump drives to bypass camps. In that sense, the proposed changes are NOT too strong, I believe they actually are a minimum Big smile

I'm however worried about the range of jump freighters and rorquals. You want "nullsec to be more self-sufficient in industrial terms, but that’s a longer-term project". The problem is that jump range changes to JFs and Rorquals are happening NOW. It would seem logical to wait for changes that makes nullsec more self-sustaining, to nerf JFs.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#3466 - 2014-10-02 16:00:08 UTC
Calling it now, AUR for fatigue reset incoming.
zelalot
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#3467 - 2014-10-02 16:00:40 UTC
Murauke wrote:
I couldn't care less about these changes since null sec for me died many years ago when I got married and stopped playing the game 23/7.

However I do see the need in first of all change the cyno mechanic. This is what makes force projection easy. If you already have cyno gens etc you've obviously already worked at the grind so to me that is still perfectly acceptable. The cyno mechanic makes it far too easy to project force. Having an improved cyno mechanic that doesn't hurt the immediate fun should be the thing we aim for. The thing I think about when it comes to a more active cyno-ing role is a more than "click" - Cyno's up.

And many people have already stated - how much time do you think your customer base has to "play" when we have other things to contend with, like paying bills.



This.

Chirality Tisteloin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3468 - 2014-10-02 16:00:56 UTC
Chirality Tisteloin wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

No, because complicated math is already too common in EVE. Sometimes it's necessary. Here, it's not.


Ok, I hear you.

Logistic growth is not that complicated imho.

Before I saw your answer I have prepared a few plots (the script can produce more) to illustrate: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/2014/10/02/logistic-fatigue-growth/

Cheers, Chira.



Also please let me remark, that if you are concerned about people wrapping their heads around the maths, it is known that humans are very poor at grasping the behaviour of a power law intuitively. For the logistic growth model you simply approach a (tuneable) terminal velocity at which captitals can move by jump-drive. At the same time, short distance travel velocity is high.

See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/
white male privilege
Doomheim
#3469 - 2014-10-02 16:01:35 UTC
Querns wrote:
After thinking it through, I want to empathically state the following:

DO NOT EXTEND THE 5 LY RANGE ON CAPITAL JUMPS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

After spending some time last night with a jump planner set to JDC 0 dreads, I have determined that the number of logistics routes into 0.0 have decreased dramatically. This allows for much greater control on what gets into space, and provides meaningful options for fighting an insurgent force (or, by the same token, disrupting an entrenched one.) It is imperative that the restriction stay in place.

If we want to tune things, fatigue is the right place.

Also, I propose nerfing Jump Drive Calibration somewhat -- with the current proposal, caps have a base 2.22 LY jump range, which gets extended to 5 with JDC 5. I'd recommend drastically reducing JDC to 5% per level (currently 25%) and bumping base range to 4. This makes caps a lot more useful without a 37d train tacked on.

Yep, gatecamps will be a thing now. It is not possible to cyno over every chokepoint in eve rendering camps and piracy in general useless
Isha Subula
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3470 - 2014-10-02 16:01:39 UTC
Seriously this is not that bad of a change. Logistics will be fine. With the 90% reduction for Rorq and JF pilots an 8 jump trip takes 48 min if you wait out the fatigue timer after each jump. This is ment to penalize a group moving say 10 titans to a system that takes 3 jumps in a hurry. they will then be stuck thee for hours unable to jump out. I like this! Gives us a chance to catch them.

Bravo CCP
Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3471 - 2014-10-02 16:01:46 UTC
Querns wrote:

Also, I propose nerfing Jump Drive Calibration somewhat -- with the current proposal, caps have a base 2.22 LY jump range, which gets extended to 5 with JDC 5. I'd recommend drastically reducing JDC to 5% per level (currently 25%) and bumping base range to 4. This makes caps a lot more useful without a 37d train tacked on.


And completely screws over all existing cap pilots out of a very long level 5 train that no one would ever *ever* have trained with your proposed nerf. We're already discussing a massive kick in the nuts to cap pilots, lets not rub cayenne pepper on their nuts afterwards.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#3472 - 2014-10-02 16:01:52 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Crysantos Callahan wrote:
{other stuff}
Did you already run tests with larger capital/supercapital fleets using gates and the possible bumps that will happen?

Thanks in advance!


{other stuff}
- Yup, Masterplan is doing some fine-tuning of warp logic to make this sort of thing smoother. There's no good way to warp 20 titans to a gate at once without bumping, though.



Thoughts on increasing the range at which capitals can activate the gate? As a sphere's radius increase, the volume increase a by a cube(^3) Ie, if you double the radius, the volume will be 2^3 more. This would allow more ships in fleets to get close.

I am not saying let capitals have a 5KM activation range, but maybe a 3.5KM (1.4^3 = 275% increase in volume around the gate for capitals)?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3473 - 2014-10-02 16:02:03 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
Querns wrote:


Also, I propose nerfing Jump Drive Calibration somewhat -- with the current proposal, caps have a base 2.22 LY jump range, which gets extended to 5 with JDC 5. I'd recommend drastically reducing JDC to 5% per level (currently 25%) and bumping base range to 4. This makes caps a lot more useful without a 37d train tacked on.


I Agree with this. or just have the calibration skill relate to a 5% reduction in fatigue gain, and have all caps just set to 5LY

Yeah, this works too. It depends on whether CCP want skills to affect fatigue or not.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#3474 - 2014-10-02 16:02:04 UTC
Ok so here is my post again summarizing everything.

But first let me say, everyone that sells their mains and cancels their accounts before this lands is an idiot and will regret doing that, because these changes ARE NOT FINAL CCP always reserves the right to change things before deployment.

That being said im going to list off the list of compromises and counter proposal to CCP


1. Jump range issue.

5 ly cap is bad. We can all agree on that.

Idea Solution #1 - scaled jump range for each type of ship I will list max ranges. which should be fair. And to keep it simple i used whole numbers.

Carriers, JF, Rorquals - 12 LY

Dreads - 10 LY

Super Carriers - 7 ly

Titans - 5 ly

IdeaSolution #2

A new item in either a mid slot, low slot or rig slot; Maximum 1 fitted at a time that provides a bonus to jump range. Bonus will be based on the ship you are flying and will be % based T2 versions of this module will be a 50% increase of the T1 version.


2. Jump Fatigue

Cooldown timers are good, but the current math is a bit extreme.

Idea Solution #1 - scaled fatigue based on the ship you are flying. I will use the same formula as a base for the adjustments.

Titan - 1 + (LY traveled * 0.1) - standard ccp formula
Super Carrier - 1 + (LY traveled * 0.15)
Dread - 1 + (LY traveled * 0.2)
Carrier - 1 + (LY traveled * 0.25)
JF, Rorqual, Black ops - 1 + (LY traveled * 0.35)

This favors logistics ships over combat ships, because lets face it logistics is a pain in the arse at times.

Idea Solution # 2 - New implants and boosters that reduce the amount of fatigue you get from the distance traveled.

Names for implants might include, Alarm Clock, Yawn, Dream
Booster names might include, NoDoze, Surge, Jolt, Coffee, Tweek, or SUPER CAFFINATED QUAFE!

However there needs to be a downside to boosters, I think an appropriate downside is significant increase in isotope and cap usage.

Idea Soultion # 3 - Make the fatigue a flat rate base on the type of jump.

Type may include
Local - within constellation
Constellational - within the region but outside the constellation
Regtional - outside your region.

Idea Solution # 4 - Make an absolute cap on how much fatigue you can get, cause as it stands you can get several years of fatigue within a week.

3. Cap ships using gates

This goes against EvE canon set forth in the chronicles. Stop that!

EDIT : - make a module that allows them to use a gate, and maybe put a fuel cost per jump


4. Pod jumping

Get your ship into low sec with a nice clone vat on it have all your new members do that. Fly out to null space and then have them self destruct. And set up regular jump schedules.


------------

To my fellow EvE players, these are some fairly balanced solutions. If you like them PLEASE quote which ones you like and say I like this for balance or something along those lines.

Whining, saying you quit blahh blahh blahh will not get CCP to listen. If you want them to listen you must always present your case like a lawyer and convince them why their idea is bad. I have presented my case, and I have offered several solutions which go along with CCP's ideas but are not as harsh as cutting off everyone's limbs.


SO AGAIN,

If you like any of these ideas, quote them, post them and offer feed by of why this or this isnt a good solution.


Thank you for your time today and CCP I do hope you will consider these solutions as a more reasonable balance to nerfing power projection and capital projections.

Regards
Obsidian Hawk
Capital pilot since 2008

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Optimo Sebiestor
The New Eden School of trade
Organization of Skill Extracting Corporations
#3475 - 2014-10-02 16:03:44 UTC
Actually, these migth be the best changes I've seen in years :D
Moloney
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3476 - 2014-10-02 16:03:55 UTC
Oh and please, for the love of God, do NOT add modules / drugs / what ever to manipulate the jump fatigue.
Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3477 - 2014-10-02 16:05:15 UTC
Isha Subula wrote:
Seriously this is not that bad of a change. Logistics will be fine. With the 90% reduction for Rorq and JF pilots an 8 jump trip takes 48 min if you wait out the fatigue timer after each jump. This is ment to penalize a group moving say 10 titans to a system that takes 3 jumps in a hurry. they will then be stuck thee for hours unable to jump out. I like this! Gives us a chance to catch them.

Bravo CCP


What does JF nerf have to do with Titans at all?

Also, you need to wait 14 minutes for each fatigue timer after each jump, so your math is way off. It's more like 112 minutes, which is 6 times longer than you would expect now for a JF doing that route and you've just made a really boring profession the most boring profession in any video game in history.
Karl Mason
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#3478 - 2014-10-02 16:06:33 UTC
NO No No No No No No No.....
Go back and start again...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3479 - 2014-10-02 16:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
CCP Greyscale wrote:


IDK, warp speed rigged cruisers? Gimmick fits tend to be awful in the real world, I'm sure someone will find a counter.



Rigged cruisers? No. Buuut while we are talking about it...


[Moros, Moros fit]

Damage Control II
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Explosive Membrane

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Domination Warp Disruptor
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script

Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Dread Guristas Antimatter Charge XL
Siege Module II

Capital Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Capital Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster II
Capital Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster II

Not entirely sure if this will work but my dream of roaming dreads just took a big step forwards. Anyway, 1.7 mil EHP, 3au warp speed, a metric fuckton of firepower, half a minute to align (two nano take that down to 22 sec). Frankly if I can get this things align time down to around a battleships I may use it in baltec fleet in an ultimate show of stubbornness. I shall call it monkfish.

CCP Grayscale what have you done?
Gedalva
#3480 - 2014-10-02 16:07:48 UTC
This is so delicious to watch the null tears flow.

1) The Mittani and Null powers that be pinpoint "Force Projection" as the evil that is destroying the game.

2) CCP makes long distance Force Projection so time consuming as to be unobtainable.

3) The leaders and members of the large capital fleets guilty of "Force Projection with Malice" cry like someone just took their ice cream.

-Screams of CCP "not listening/understanding" their player base.
-Player groups threatening to throw Un-Sub parties.
-Character Bazaar exploding with capital and cyno pilots as well as ships for sale.
-Cries of disbelief that a Capital ship must deign to use a GATE to travel!

So seldom do I agree with the Mittani but in this case I must, 5 groups hell bent on ruining everyone else's game brought us here. This is the boldest move imaginable to shake up the power structure and status quo and I applaud it even though my logistics chain is impacted considerably with this brush stroke. This will open up hundreds of systems for aspiring forces who would be sov holders but for the heavily skewed mechanics allowing ownership of space without any real representation.

Take a bow CCP, others may see this as a sledgehammer approach but I find it quite elegant. Short of nerfing numbers of members allowed or assigning "x" of Blue's each corporation can issue this forces groups to evaluate the value of their friends and enemies.