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Crime & Punishment

 
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"How Highsec miners threaten EVE, and how we can stop them."

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Sasha Nyemtsov
Doomheim
#121 - 2014-09-21 07:55:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Sasha Nyemtsov wrote:
Manifesto II - How Highsec miners threaten EVE, and how we can stop them.

James 315's closely argued evisceration of the real threat to EVE. The links take you to the relevant SoundCloud file. New files are initially linked from the MinerBumping Forum by my MB Forum alt, Klaus.


If you'd like to discuss the content of the following audio files, I entreat you to do so in a mature and reasonable manner.

The Accusation
The Carebears Killed Nullsec PvP
The Carebears Almost Shut Down EVE Completely
The Endless History of Nerf Demands
The End Of All Danger In Highsec


Hi again, I've just uploaded to SoundCloud the 5th part of James 315's 'Manifesto II'.

Does CCP have a cunning plan to squash non-consensual PvP in New Order territory? If so, what might it look like?

They usually pair nerfs with buffs, in the interests of balance. But if that's the case, isn't suicide-ganking due for the buff of all buffs?

What exactly was the 'Boomerang' tactic, employed by gankers? Why did it lead to perhaps the fastest lock (in the form of a patch) ever dealt by CCP?

James 315 has the answers.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


The End Of All Danger In Highsec

www.minerbumping.com

Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#122 - 2014-09-21 23:31:50 UTC
And this is why I recruit near high sec new player hubs. To help them see more than just the whining carebear side of things. I do teach them that industry, while valuable, is not the only part of EVE. I teach them how to violence others and work with others.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#123 - 2014-09-24 12:15:52 UTC
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:
I think a more accurate way to state the problem is, "Mining is a broken mechanic, but it is so central to the economy of Eve that CCP doesn't dare fool with it much". In hindsight I think CCP understands that mining really needed to be a passive rather than active mechanic -- in fact, I think they applied the lessons they learned with mining to the PI mechanic.

Mining combines the worst aspects of all resource-gathering game mechanics: it is a mechanical, repetitive task that takes place at fixed points in the game world and requires little skill but much time to perform. Eve's mining mechanic cries out for automation -- extensive use of alts and outright botting are inevitable. Tedious, un-fun, but absolutely essential to the game: that's Eve's mining system for you.

Why has such a lousy gaming mechanic persisted for so long? After all, Eve's central mining mechanic is little changed since Eve's launch a decade ago. We've gotten better ships, but essentially the game is the same: warp to belt, point lasers at rocks, then stare with glazed eyes at the screen as your ore-hold fills up. Lather, rinse, repeat. Year after year people complain about how boring and dumb mining is, and year after year CCP does nothing about it. Why? Because Eve's economy would collapse without a daily influx of huge amounts of asteroid ore. Huge amounts. There aren't enough human miners in the game to keep up the flow of ore needed. So botting, while never actually sanctioned, has been more or less accepted as a necessary evil -- as long as the botters don't make it too obvious.

I'm not sure what to propose at this point. If CCP were going to fool with the mining mechanic, they'd have done it by now. I think they're afraid of totally wrecking the economy if they try to change mining too much; any substantial change to mining risks interrupting the flow of ore, which in turn risks interrupting the flow of minerals for ship-building. If I had my way, I'd make mining more like PI where you set up your arrays, turn them on, and let them run.

I dislike botting because it's actually an indicator of a broken game. I don't have any huge moral beef with it apart from the way it disadvantages players who don't bot. But Eve's mining mechanic is so dreadfully tedious and un-fun that automating the activity is the only way to engage in it without going insane.

tl;dr version: botting is the only sane way to deal with Eve's horribly broken mining mechanic. If CCP wants to end botting, they need to change how mining is done, at a fundamental level.



Truer words have never been spoken

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#124 - 2014-09-25 13:45:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Renegade Heart
I am hereby issuing a formal apology to CODE for anything I have ever done in an attempt to discredit them. Recent events have transformed my opinion of them completely! If anything I should be praising their actions. All conduct I have witnessed from CODE members has been what I would term "friendly gaming" with no unreasonable behaviour. I am sure some would counter this view by telling me about bad apples, but any bad apples are clearly not representative of the entire CODE ethos.

I would like to elaborate on this.

Before

I thought CODE were a bunch of weird RP'ers. I thought that some of the things they were saying about how the carebears want to destroy the game were hysterical. I never once thought that anything they were doing didn't belong in EvE, I just thought that their style didn't fit with my own style.

Now

I had suicide ganked before, occasionally, but lately, I decided to drop to -10 and explore ganking more fully. I am really enjoying my gaming lately! I don't think that the remainder of my days in EvE will be spent solely suicide ganking, but I have much yet to do. There are fun challenges ahead Big smile

As I play EvE, I try to remain civil with other players, and would feel stupid if I had to resort to childish insults in an attempt to win an argument with someone where my logic failed me. That is not how I roll. I'd rather lose an argument to be honest, at least if logic was involved.

But it is becoming glaringly obvious to me that many other players in the game do not play like this. Instead of enjoying a friendly game against other people, they will try their damned hardest to put you down in any way they think will work. I am disgusted by the levels some will stoop to, because they are mad that they got ganked, or lost a game in some way. And all of this behaviour I see comes from the ganked, and those that aim to protect potential gankees!

I have been ganking pods in Perimeter and one dude in particular has spent hours following me and posting in local about things I don't even want to repeat here. What is wrong with these people? I idled in the anti-ganking channel for a few days too, and had to close it a few times, because it was painful to read some of the things being posted in there. I've since been banned from that channel but that is probably for the best.

Now my thoughts are turning to what CODE members have likely been subjected to from their game targets. I can only imagine that it is similar to my experience, and it sickens me. It is making me want to become a CODE shareholder.

I hate to admit it, but I am almost tempted to disregard my prior misconceptions about "weird RP stuff" and join CODE!

I felt I owed it to CODE to post this, for the great things they are doing for the game. Well done CODE!

[UPDATE] ISK sent to James 315 for stock purchase P
Sasha Nyemtsov
Doomheim
#125 - 2014-09-28 06:35:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Sasha Nyemtsov wrote:
Manifesto II - How Highsec miners threaten EVE, and how we can stop them.

James 315's closely argued evisceration of the real threat to EVE. The links take you to the relevant SoundCloud file. New files are initially linked from the MinerBumping Forum by my MB Forum alt, Klaus.


If you'd like to discuss the content of the following audio files, I entreat you to do so in a mature and reasonable manner.

The Accusation
The Carebears Killed Nullsec PvP
The Carebears Almost Shut Down EVE Completely
The Endless History of Nerf Demands
The End Of All Danger In Highsec
The Culture Of The New Carebear


Hi, I've just uploaded to SoundCloud the 6th part of James 315's 'Manifesto II'.

"Odds are good that you didn't come to EVE because you heard how great the PVE is."

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

The Culture Of The New Carebear

www.minerbumping.com

Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#126 - 2014-09-28 10:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Froggy Storm
Somehow or another, in the pushing for gank punishment thread, the advocate for higher punishment twisted his own argument around to suggest that miners are at fault for isk inflation in relation to PLEX prices. If you are reading here and (somehow) not tracking that thread also, it is worth a gander.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5059529#post5059529
Sasha Nyemtsov
Doomheim
#127 - 2014-09-28 13:47:47 UTC
Froggy Storm wrote:
Somehow or another, in the pushing for gank punishment thread, the advocate for higher punishment twisted his own argument around to suggest that miners are at fault for isk inflation in relation to PLEX prices. If you are reading here and (somehow) not tracking that thread also, it is worth a gander.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5059529#post5059529


Thanks Froggy, I'd deserted that thread. Interesting to pick it up again; but Veers........

www.minerbumping.com

Junkiloton
Corporate Retail Operations With Y'all
#128 - 2014-09-28 20:37:11 UTC
Active miner here, chiming in on a fun thread:

I am grossly disappointed by the distinct LACK of ganking I see in the game nowadays. I flew a massively over-filled cargo mammoth last week with all of my movable goods (in region) for over 25 jumps the other day and didn't even pass a gate scanner. I'm actually undocked a LOT as gameplay goes, and I haven't lost a ship to an actual gank in over 4 years, and that was my prowler in low sec (I blame t3 targeting speed). I did a fly-by of syndicate and only really spotted about 3 proper camps. Might play in provi here in a few days to see what's up, but am distracted by all these rets and mackinaws in ice belts. They need some blaster-flavored encouragement to get in better ships, but that has not been forthcoming. Cry

Now, I support ganking, mainly as an industrialist. See, I like it when things blow up, because unlike the bot-miners, I get bonus pay whenever I can sell people ships and modules. And in hi-sec, this is extra profitable, since I am essentially making double bank off of the gankers absolutely losing their ship, and also from the miner losing his ship if the gank is successful. Now, note that I "support" ganking. Actually doing it is unprofitable. I prefer to be an arms dealer. More fun for me. Thankfully, there are always people willing to pick up the guns and shoot things. Harder to find them outside of Niarja, though.

[Other than all that, it's worth noting that EVE has been dying for the last decade. Either it's a highlander or a right proper zombie, but the bastard is still standing, regardless. ]

But yeah, as far as any serious miner has ever been concerned, if it's not tanked, don't fly it. Shoot the afkers out of the skies, have fun. Buy our stuff.
Iain Cariaba
#129 - 2014-09-29 00:40:14 UTC
Junkiloton wrote:
Active miner here, chiming in on a fun thread:

I am grossly disappointed by the distinct LACK of ganking I see in the game nowadays. I flew a massively over-filled cargo mammoth last week with all of my movable goods (in region) for over 25 jumps the other day and didn't even pass a gate scanner. I'm actually undocked a LOT as gameplay goes, and I haven't lost a ship to an actual gank in over 4 years, and that was my prowler in low sec (I blame t3 targeting speed). I did a fly-by of syndicate and only really spotted about 3 proper camps. Might play in provi here in a few days to see what's up, but am distracted by all these rets and mackinaws in ice belts. They need some blaster-flavored encouragement to get in better ships, but that has not been forthcoming. Cry

Now, I support ganking, mainly as an industrialist. See, I like it when things blow up, because unlike the bot-miners, I get bonus pay whenever I can sell people ships and modules. And in hi-sec, this is extra profitable, since I am essentially making double bank off of the gankers absolutely losing their ship, and also from the miner losing his ship if the gank is successful. Now, note that I "support" ganking. Actually doing it is unprofitable. I prefer to be an arms dealer. More fun for me. Thankfully, there are always people willing to pick up the guns and shoot things. Harder to find them outside of Niarja, though.

[Other than all that, it's worth noting that EVE has been dying for the last decade. Either it's a highlander or a right proper zombie, but the bastard is still standing, regardless. ]

But yeah, as far as any serious miner has ever been concerned, if it's not tanked, don't fly it. Shoot the afkers out of the skies, have fun. Buy our stuff.

I, too, am disappointed in the lack of ganking occuring in highsec. Why just a couple days ago my hauler alt flew a total of 48 jumps through highsec, including several runs through various chokepoint systems. What did I see during this? As long as I was on the pipes from trade hub to trade hub, it was at least one autopiloting freighter on every gate without a single ganker to be seen. In one system, I even got to watch 2 Charons, a Fenrir, and an Obelisk all come out of warp, one after another, lined up like a train, all 15km off the gate.
Haedonism Bot
People for the Ethical Treatment of Rogue Drones
#130 - 2014-09-29 01:15:57 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:
I am hereby issuing a formal apology to CODE for anything I have ever done in an attempt to discredit them. Recent events have transformed my opinion of them completely! If anything I should be praising their actions. All conduct I have witnessed from CODE members has been what I would term "friendly gaming" with no unreasonable behaviour. I am sure some would counter this view by telling me about bad apples, but any bad apples are clearly not representative of the entire CODE ethos.

I would like to elaborate on this.

Before

I thought CODE were a bunch of weird RP'ers. I thought that some of the things they were saying about how the carebears want to destroy the game were hysterical. I never once thought that anything they were doing didn't belong in EvE, I just thought that their style didn't fit with my own style.

Now

I had suicide ganked before, occasionally, but lately, I decided to drop to -10 and explore ganking more fully. I am really enjoying my gaming lately! I don't think that the remainder of my days in EvE will be spent solely suicide ganking, but I have much yet to do. There are fun challenges ahead Big smile

As I play EvE, I try to remain civil with other players, and would feel stupid if I had to resort to childish insults in an attempt to win an argument with someone where my logic failed me. That is not how I roll. I'd rather lose an argument to be honest, at least if logic was involved.

But it is becoming glaringly obvious to me that many other players in the game do not play like this. Instead of enjoying a friendly game against other people, they will try their damned hardest to put you down in any way they think will work. I am disgusted by the levels some will stoop to, because they are mad that they got ganked, or lost a game in some way. And all of this behaviour I see comes from the ganked, and those that aim to protect potential gankees!

I have been ganking pods in Perimeter and one dude in particular has spent hours following me and posting in local about things I don't even want to repeat here. What is wrong with these people? I idled in the anti-ganking channel for a few days too, and had to close it a few times, because it was painful to read some of the things being posted in there. I've since been banned from that channel but that is probably for the best.

Now my thoughts are turning to what CODE members have likely been subjected to from their game targets. I can only imagine that it is similar to my experience, and it sickens me. It is making me want to become a CODE shareholder.

I hate to admit it, but I am almost tempted to disregard my prior misconceptions about "weird RP stuff" and join CODE!

I felt I owed it to CODE to post this, for the great things they are doing for the game. Well done CODE!

[UPDATE] ISK sent to James 315 for stock purchase P


Your experience somewhat mirrors my own. Before I became involved with the New Order I also found myself turned off by the RP aspect to it. I actually found James 315s writings compelling but I had a hard time with the NO itself. Around that time I started suicide ganking miners myself from time to time, and frequenting channels used by other content creators. I began meeting people involved with the New Order, and getting to know them better.

For me, the experience that really converted me to an agent was reading Bing Bangboom's story about his 8 month wardec against the alliance U.S.A.T.O. on the minerbumping forums. As I became more involved I began to realize that the New Order revolves around a core group of members who are good people genuinely trying to fix this game. Sure, we have some people who get really into the RP side of it. I find them cute - they are like our cartoonish mascots. The rest of us just use RP when it's funny.

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#131 - 2014-09-29 03:39:17 UTC
the whole thing is a farce. 400 billion isk down the drain and more highsec mining than ever. It's obvious that the gank gank gank approach failed. What is needed is engagement with miners to show them other more enjoyable aspects of Eve, like missions/incursions.
Iain Cariaba
#132 - 2014-09-29 04:36:00 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
the whole thing is a farce. 400 billion isk down the drain and more highsec mining than ever. It's obvious that the gank gank gank approach failed. What is needed is engagement with miners to show them other more enjoyable aspects of Eve, like missions/incursions.

Really? You can provide non-anecdotal evidence to support your claim of more highsec mining than ever? Or is this just another baseless claim?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#133 - 2014-09-29 05:08:26 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
the whole thing is a farce. 400 billion isk down the drain and more highsec mining than ever. It's obvious that the gank gank gank approach failed. What is needed is engagement with miners to show them other more enjoyable aspects of Eve, like missions/incursions.

Really? You can provide non-anecdotal evidence to support your claim of more highsec mining than ever? Or is this just another baseless claim?


Don't ask Veers for evidence. He doesn't believe in it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#134 - 2014-09-29 05:24:31 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
the whole thing is a farce. 400 billion isk down the drain and more highsec mining than ever. It's obvious that the gank gank gank approach failed. What is needed is engagement with miners to show them other more enjoyable aspects of Eve, like missions/incursions.

Really? You can provide non-anecdotal evidence to support your claim of more highsec mining than ever? Or is this just another baseless claim?


Go check any highsec system you would like...note the massive bot mining fleets and the proliferation of mining fleets. Also note how eve stuff is deflating while plex is inflating. Enough said.
Iain Cariaba
#135 - 2014-09-29 05:54:29 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
the whole thing is a farce. 400 billion isk down the drain and more highsec mining than ever. It's obvious that the gank gank gank approach failed. What is needed is engagement with miners to show them other more enjoyable aspects of Eve, like missions/incursions.

Really? You can provide non-anecdotal evidence to support your claim of more highsec mining than ever? Or is this just another baseless claim?


Go check any highsec system you would like...note the massive bot mining fleets and the proliferation of mining fleets. Also note how eve stuff is deflating while plex is inflating. Enough said.

I'm all over highsec with my alts, and haven't seen these imaginary bot mining fleets you seem to have seen outside systems with ice in them. Perhaps it's just that with ice to be found in fewer places in highsec the fleets are more condensed.

And yes, an artifically introduces comodity, even artificial for this game, that is entirely dependant on external influences for its supply is a great indicator of inflation. PLEX cannot be used as a measuring stick for the health of EvE's economy, as it's supply is entirely artificial, gamewise, and is only there to facilitate the sale of game time. Before PLEX was the complicated system of the timecode bazaar. PLEX is as much of an indicator of economic health as the bazaar was, which was not at all.
Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#136 - 2014-10-01 22:00:12 UTC
Okay, I gotta say, I am slightly disappoint that after 2 share purchases, I never got a thanks in return.

That would not have been that hard James!

Good luck to the New Order, but, I am off as a free spirit again Pirate

To be fair, I couldn't be bothered selling mining permits.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#137 - 2014-10-02 08:14:55 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:
Okay, I gotta say, I am slightly disappoint that after 2 share purchases, I never got a thanks in return.

That would not have been that hard James!

Good luck to the New Order, but, I am off as a free spirit again Pirate

To be fair, I couldn't be bothered selling mining permits.



James 315 is a busy man, so he unfortunately doesn't have time to thank the multitude of people who purchase shares each week. Just like if you buy shares in say Apple, or General Motors, you are very unlikely to receive personal thanks from the CEO.

But I will, on behalf of the New Order, thank you for your support of our noble and honourable cause to save highsec from itself. I will also point out that your contribution has been duly noted and your name will forever remain on the Shareholders List, where you are currently listed right below Psychotic Monk! Not a bad place to be.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#138 - 2014-10-02 08:58:25 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:
Okay, I gotta say, I am slightly disappoint that after 2 share purchases, I never got a thanks in return.

That would not have been that hard James!

Good luck to the New Order, but, I am off as a free spirit again Pirate

To be fair, I couldn't be bothered selling mining permits.

I am not James, but thanks for your contribution. Your ISK will help us support young gankers all over Highsec.

Evil RatKid
Sasha Nyemtsov
Doomheim
#139 - 2014-10-02 13:21:16 UTC
Renegade Heart wrote:
Okay, I gotta say, I am slightly disappoint that after 2 share purchases, I never got a thanks in return.

That would not have been that hard James!

Good luck to the New Order, but, I am off as a free spirit again Pirate

To be fair, I couldn't be bothered selling mining permits.


Hi Renegade Heart (full name, cos I like it!)

Just want to join my gratitude to that of my colleagues. We appreciate every contribution, Isk or otherwise, because we know it represents genuine effort by our donors. Thank you.

As for being a free spirit, you're not alone in the New Order. I and many others have a number of interests in the game. Supporting the New Order comes top, for me, but I quite understand the army of supporters who find time to help out as and when they can, other activities permitting.

You are still a supporter of the New Order, and your contribution counts.

www.minerbumping.com

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#140 - 2014-10-02 15:20:51 UTC
Junkiloton wrote:
[Other than all that, it's worth noting that EVE has been dying for the last decade. Either it's a highlander or a right proper zombie, but the bastard is still standing, regardless.
That's a novel one: EVE is an undead highlander! Lol

That said (and yes, I really laughed out loud!), I have removed some posts replying to edited out parts of the posts replied to.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)