These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Pre-CSM Summit Nullsec and Sov Thread

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#681 - 2014-09-30 17:29:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:


Reduce the fat isk in null sec, and more entities would be able to claim space - because it wouldn't be profitable for the blue donut to hold it.


What fat isk? Null is already abandoned and you want to make it even worse?


If I may....

While many are likely to have strong opinions on this topic, I believe ISK to be nearly a byproduct.
I believe it's significance plateaus at the point where it cannot be considered an obstacle to growth.

Players want to play a game, and specifically they want to believe they can win.
The more they believe they can win, the less they feel to be at risk, so they may want to win more often to balance that.
Larger groups, all else being equal, are better at winning than smaller groups.

Without risk, victory is meaningless. You must overcome the odds or some other challenging obstacle to make the game fun.
The obstacle can be channeled into difficulty in organizing, such as with large or multiple fleets.
(management on this level is more of a job skill, less of a gaming-centric one, because you need real life people management skills)

For those wondering:
This is not just some philosophy rant, this is defining the rules which we want the mechanics to be measured against.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#682 - 2014-09-30 17:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
baltec1 wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Reduce the fat isk in null sec, and more entities would be able to claim space - because it wouldn't be profitable for the blue donut to hold it.
What fat isk? Null is already abandoned and you want to make it even worse?
It's not abandoned due to "lack of easy isk" - how else do you explain the fact that there is more activity in Providence than Delve?

The amount of wealth generated in null sec is absolutely staggering. The powers in null have used that wealth to create the big blue donut that no other entity can possibly overcome. Why would CCP increase the income stream to a part of the game that is more intent on protecting its place in the game than it is in generating content?


  • Occupancy based Sov: Yes. You guys want conflict? Occupancy based sov done right will generate content.
  • More NPC Null: Why? The current NPC null is not used. But hey if occupancy based sov generates more content in NPC null, then yes add more.
  • Make 0.0 income stream even greater: Why? You want conflict, not bigger income streams, right?


CCP should not "Negotiate from a position of weakness" wrt. 0.0 empires. The false argument that "Goons/N3/PL will give up regions if other areas become richer" is just that - false.

Goons/N3/PL will only give up areas in null sec if those areas are taken away through some mechanic that puts them at a disadvantage in some systems - which Occupancy based sov will if done right. You don't need to bribe Goons/PL with "richer space" for this to happen.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#683 - 2014-09-30 20:20:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Serendipity Lost
oops
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#684 - 2014-09-30 21:23:54 UTC
Power blocs are pushing their:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=376100

so they can get npc station jump points to every region.

They really seem to like it the way they're pushing this thread. But then I guess they would.

Just give all of null back to the npc's.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#685 - 2014-10-01 06:06:00 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
X Gallentius wrote:
It's not abandoned due to "lack of easy isk" - how else do you explain the fact that there is more activity in Providence than Delve?

The war going on?

X Gallentius wrote:

The amount of wealth generated in null sec is absolutely staggering.


Citation please. All evidence gathered shows that line members will earn more per person in high sec running missions.
X Gallentius wrote:

The powers in null have used that wealth to create the big blue donut that no other entity can possibly overcome. Why would CCP increase the income stream to a part of the game that is more intent on protecting its place in the game than it is in generating content?


There is no "blue donut", we own half of EVE and N3/PL own the other half. The thing that caused this is the mechanics not the players.
X Gallentius wrote:


Make 0.0 income stream even greater: Why? You want conflict, not bigger income streams, right?


Its there so that we can support our thousands of pilots on much smaller areas of space. Simply shrinking our empires without dealing with the ten pilot per system cap will mean no alliance could support its members within its borders. Even now GSF has nearly five times the population than can be supported by the systems we own.

X Gallentius wrote:

CCP should not "Negotiate from a position of weakness" wrt. 0.0 empires. The false argument that "Goons/N3/PL will give up regions if other areas become richer" is just that - false.

Goons/N3/PL will only give up areas in null sec if those areas are taken away through some mechanic that puts them at a disadvantage in some systems - which Occupancy based sov will if done right. You don't need to bribe Goons/PL with "richer space" for this to happen.


We are not getting bribed, it is the only way you can make smaller more compact empires work.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#686 - 2014-10-01 06:36:03 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
baltec1 wrote:

1. The war going on?
2. Citation please. All evidence gathered shows that line members will earn more per person in high sec running missions.
3. There is no "blue donut", we own half of EVE and N3/PL own the other half. The thing that caused this is the mechanics not the players.


1. Yup. No blue donut protecting afk income stream in Providence. Players have decided to fight each other rather than not fight each other.

2. http://themittani.com/news/goonswarm-opens-rental-program-yes-really

3. http://targetcaller.blogspot.com/2014/09/b0tlrd-and-stagnation.html


Quote:

X Gallentius wrote:


Make 0.0 income stream even greater: Why? You want conflict, not bigger income streams, right?


Its there so that we can support our thousands of pilots on much smaller areas of space. Simply shrinking our empires without dealing with the ten pilot per system cap will mean no alliance could support its members within its borders. Even now GSF has nearly five times the population than can be supported by the systems we own.
They seem to be supported quite nicely now. The nullsec alliances are producing multiple Titans every month.

Quote:
We are not getting bribed, it is the only way you can make smaller more compact empires work.
Not yet, and you still haven't answered the question - Why would you voluntarily give up your rental empire when it is already so lucrative (and will be even more lucrative if system value is increased)? Afterall, the other guys aren't, and you need to keep pace with them.
Anthar Thebess
#687 - 2014-10-01 07:12:44 UTC
New NPC space yes - but not in this manner.
I also suggested that every sov region should have connection to nearest NPC space by totally new stargate.

NPC space is not empty , it just needs enough stations ( yes stations , cloning ones especially ) and size.

Usually in NPC space you will find people that don't want to be blue to big blobs , and even don't want to blue guys that live few jumps away.

It is hard for small new group to come to NPC space without being shoot , camped and farmed by current residents.

I live in Stain.
While you could say that for stainwagon guy whole stain is blue - i can still find neutral every 5-6 jumps as they can easily accommodate them self in less desired station systems.

They don't provide regular fights , but still from time to time, people hunt each other , and this provides both sides entertainment.
Something similar you can see in Curse or Syndicate , but because of small size, low number of station you will not see this in GW, mordus or sisters space.

If CCP wants to bring more life to NPC space and create new content for sov people it should:
- expand small pockets of NPC space and create there new stations for : Mordus , SOE, Society ... or simpler every NPC space that have less than 40 NPC null systems connected to each other.
- CCP should seed there more stations , in all cloning capable systems there should be more than 1 station having this capability
- GW should be left as they are currently - as this region is a bit different , what more i would say that bigger part of GW should be cyno jammed because of some anomaly ( just to create totally different space )
- from all sov space create stargate links to nearest NPC space by stargates, NPC exit should be 1-2 jumps from station system ( no direct station connection)

As for income.

SOV space should really go into mission system, new faction for LP , or totally different payout type.

NPC space should get current sov space anomaly spawning system like we see in Sov space, so more local pirates anomalies , but each cleaned anomaly can spawn ANY type of anomaly , and not the type you currently did.

This way both nullsec types will get enough income , while keeping them totally different in this manner.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#688 - 2014-10-01 07:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
X Gallentius wrote:


1. Yup. No blue donut protecting afk income stream in Providence. Players have decided to fight each other rather than not fight each other.

2. http://themittani.com/news/goonswarm-opens-rental-program-yes-really

3. http://targetcaller.blogspot.com/2014/09/b0tlrd-and-stagnation.html


1. Again, there is no blue doughnut. They are also not fighting eachother for the sake of it, brave wants their space.



X Gallentius wrote:



They seem to be supported quite nicely now. The nullsec alliances are producing multiple Titans every month.


They bulk of null players earn their isk outside of their empires in more lucrative highsec. Again you are doing the mistake of thinking alliance level income is what the line members get, its not.

X Gallentius wrote:

Not yet, and you still haven't answered the question - Why would you voluntarily give up your rental empire when it is already so lucrative (and will be even more lucrative if system value is increased)? Afterall, the other guys aren't, and you need to keep pace with them.


Same reason why we pushed to nerf Tech when we held a monopoly on it. People seem to forget that we have a history of pushing for changes that are good for the game even if it mean we get nerfed more than most.
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#689 - 2014-10-01 07:17:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
There is no "blue donut", we own half of EVE and N3/PL own the other half. The thing that caused this is the mechanics not the players.


Talk about a Contradicting idiot who drinks his own kool-aid!

baltec1 wrote:
Citation please. All evidence gathered shows that line members will earn more per person in high sec running missions.

What evidence?

I made more ISK as a line member in your space then I ever did in Highsec...

baltec1 wrote:
There is no "blue donut", we own half of EVE and N3/PL own the other half. The thing that caused this is the mechanics not the players.

How many agreements are inplace that prevent either side from starting a war? I...actually lost count of how many!

I never knew they were built-in mechanics?

Dude....CCP has their plan in place, and no one is buying your kool-aid.
EVE Online o7 - 32 minute mark wrote:
“It has got kind of stagnant out there, people have, the major coalitions have basically solved the game and figured out how to win, and now they are winning and now it is boring for everybody”


Also, the fact that at U.S. Primetime...for the past week alone, there has been barely 18k players. Compared to the 30k +a year ago. The game is boring, people are logging off and playing something else...DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF YOUR ACTIONS!

Everyone knows this, even CCP! They'll happily **** the game for a few people (like you) to satisfy the growing amount of people who are unhappy with your direct, out of game, not apart of the mechanics, actions!

...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#690 - 2014-10-01 07:30:41 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:


Talk about a Contradicting idiot who drinks his own kool-aid!


So care to tell us why we deployed south for a few months to blow up entire fleets of them if we are all blue and refuse to attack each other?

Azami Nevinyrall wrote:

What evidence?

I made more ISK as a line member in your space then I ever did in Highsec...


How about the years of mission guides and detailed knowledge of blitzing missions? Or the fact that when CCP did the pirate battleship changes it was discovered that a mach can earn over 80 mil/hr blitzing level 3 missions, the best anom income caps out at 90 mil/hr. The only people who still think null offers better rewards are the incompetent and high sec bears who have never been in null.

Azami Nevinyrall wrote:

How many agreements are inplace that prevent either side from starting a war? I...actually lost count of how many!

.


Very few, the main reason we dont attack eachother in an all out brawl is because neither side can win it and nobody wants to grind through hundreds of trillions of HP.

Azami Nevinyrall wrote:


Everyone knows this, even CCP! They'll happily **** the game for a few people (like you) to satisfy the growing amount of people who are unhappy with your direct, out of game, not apart of the mechanics, actions!


If if it our actions that caused this then why has the exact same happened on the Chinese server? We could fold our alliance tomorrow and all of us quit EVE and you will have the exact same thing happen again with new names in charge.
Anthar Thebess
#691 - 2014-10-01 07:43:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:


Also, the fact that at U.S. Primetime...for the past week alone, there has been barely 18k players. Compared to the 30k +a year ago. The game is boring, people are logging off and playing something else...DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF YOUR ACTIONS!

Everyone knows this, even CCP! They'll happily **** the game for a few people (like you) to satisfy the growing amount of people who are unhappy with your direct, out of game, not apart of the mechanics, actions!


Well don't blame every thing on CFC.
There is no white and black.

Every one say that CFC is bad , i think PL and NC is much worst.
WHY?

CFC have big numbers and still growing those numbers.
They have thousands of line members playing this game.

Now for PL and NC.
They went totally in different direction , they gathered few small groups while demoted others under their influence to :
"You want space ? "Bend over" ... and rent "
So instead of the thousands of line members they have thousands of renters.
Renters that cannot say any thing, do any thing , think for them self - the only thing they can do is rat , mine ...
Can they do pvp ? Where if in every direction you have blue.
Gang incoming ? Dockup, "i don't have pvp ships here".

I don't say that CFC is better than NC or PL , but at least they have line member numbers bigger than renters, and their space is much bigger than the one held by thier renter empire.

Because of this we have half of null population of worthless farmers, that only dock up when neut show up on intell chanell.
Usually those people are isboxing multiple accounts , at short term this was good for CCP as this generated more accounts.

Yet normal nullsec people became bored of this situation and started to un-subscribe .
How long you can rat or mine on 30 accounts?
Time will tell but im guessing not for long.

Year to year statistic show best how bad current situation is :
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

Now :
- include into this that you are logging in on few accounts every day
- include that others are doing this on 20 accounts.
- include that some people play EVE : Skill quene Online or EVE : Planetary Operations Online Until Something Change
What we get ?
6-8k real players online and playing ?

If we exclude every thing this we still get 23k weekly average.
The same numbers EVE had in 2008 , but at the same time it was on moment when player numbers where growing.

I started pointing this graph around 3 months ago, between then and now EVE lost 3 000 in weekly average.
Yet we get :
- new cloack
- clone naming
- module rebalacing
- and more.

So yes , nice stuff , but at the current situation i look at this as lost work hours, that could be spent on real problems.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#692 - 2014-10-01 08:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
baltec1 wrote:
They bulk of null players earn their isk outside of their empires in more lucrative highsec. Again you are doing the mistake of thinking alliance level income is what the line members get, its not.
I think you are under the mistaken impression that I differentiate between alliance level income and line member income. The alliances are making a massive levels of isk. If their line members aren't getting their fair share of it then that's a YOU problem - not a null sec wealth generation problem.

baltec1 wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:

Not yet, and you still haven't answered the question - Why would you voluntarily give up your rental empire when it is already so lucrative (and will be even more lucrative if system value is increased)? Afterall, the other guys aren't, and you need to keep pace with them.


Same reason why we pushed to nerf Tech when we held a monopoly on it. People seem to forget that we have a history of pushing for changes that are good for the game even if it mean we get nerfed more than most.

Moons nerf hit all sides and was therefore a net zero. Whether you want to or not, you cannot willingly give up your rental empire because your competitors will not willingly give up theirs. It would be a tragic mistake on your part if you didn't keep them.

Increased value of null sec space will lead directly to increased wealth of rental empires (they will be able to charge more for rent). Don't do it CCP.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#693 - 2014-10-01 08:36:19 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:

Moons nerf hit all sides and was therefore a net zero.


No it didn't. Tech moons were regional. We exploited the crap out of them, told CCP we would, and that it was game breaking in how bad we were exploiting them.

We didn't need to rent when we had a tech moon cartel.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#694 - 2014-10-01 09:28:27 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They bulk of null players earn their isk outside of their empires in more lucrative highsec. Again you are doing the mistake of thinking alliance level income is what the line members get, its not.
I think you are under the mistaken impression that I differentiate between alliance level income and line member income. The alliances are making a massive levels of isk. If their line members aren't getting their fair share of it then that's a YOU problem - not a null sec wealth generation problem.


SRP is technically income to line members, but you forget the amount of money sunk into sov bills each month alone. Also, why would you start paying dividends every month to every irrelevant idiot and spy who don't even manufacture a single cap booster or have the decency to undock before farting.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#695 - 2014-10-01 09:47:36 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Power blocs are pushing their:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=376100

so they can get npc station jump points to every region.

They really seem to like it the way they're pushing this thread. But then I guess they would.

Just give all of null back to the npc's.





More STAGING points. It is much easier to wage war and therefore have conflict when there is at least one NPC station within 10 jumps.

Also NPC stations would help a lot with occupancy based sov because you could put small fleets staged there and operatign in rapid roams to disturb economic activity.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#696 - 2014-10-01 09:53:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

There is no "blue donut", we own half of EVE and N3/PL own the other half. The thing that caused this is the mechanics not the players.



Sorry but here I must disagree. Mechanics to not make anything, they allow or disallow, they make it effective or non effective. But that is NOT an excuse. Look at provi bloc for PROOF, they kept themselves above pitiful efficiency reasoning and kept a NRDS for years.


Sorry but you are wrong YOU (as in both super blocs) are to blame because you both sides combined are not half the quality of Provi bloc for the game.

You were greedy and dumb on a internet spaceship game, that is made to have fun. You dealt with it like a real time job, and now you LOST because you do not have fun anymore. No one is to blame other than the power blocs. The mechanics made it hard to remove such a stalemate after it emerged, but it emerged because of YOU, and your incompetence on dealing with eve as a GAME.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#697 - 2014-10-01 09:55:17 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
With the debate of what to do with Nullsec SOV going strong. I believe I have a solution that'll solve the stagnation of Nullsec. Introduce conflict to all corners of Nullsec, and allow anyone to gain and hold space!

Remove the ability to "OWN SOV."

Currently, the cartels made a few "suggestions" while ignoring the reasons why Nullsec is the way it currently is. These "suggestions" aren't that bad...on paper. But, the community saw right through it for what it really is.

The #1 gripe with null is SOV based timers and the grind, TiDi is closely related to this.

By removing the ability to "Own SOV" it effectively becomes a free for all zone. No more timers, no more mass structure grinding, no more boring, no more renting and stagnation!

Anyone can dock anywhere, anyone can openly **** with anyone, just like lowsec.

This would also force players to be active in the space they "Hold." Combine this with the addition of more NPC space and stations. Allow several stations to be dropped in non-NPC systems.

Last but not least, sort out the risk vs. reward issue. Make all areas of Nullsec space worth more or less the same. But, make it so its much more lucrative to live in. I'd agree to a Highsec nerf.....but not a major one! With some areas having more of X and less of Y, and vice versa. Deal with moon-goo properly. Then you'll have a rich, adverse, living world.

Where the actual size of your terrority will directly be tied in with how many members you have and how well you can defend it! Not how far you can throw a fleet and how fast!

Where a blue doughnut will be impossible to form again!


what you want is just low sec and NPC 0.0. There is already that in game. Sov MUST remain or eve will collapse as a social conflict game.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#698 - 2014-10-01 11:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Kagura Nikon wrote:



Sorry but here I must disagree. Mechanics to not make anything, they allow or disallow, they make it effective or non effective. But that is NOT an excuse. Look at provi bloc for PROOF, they kept themselves above pitiful efficiency reasoning and kept a NRDS for years.


They only exist because we allow them to. The mechanics are indeed the very thing that has caused this. They allow for us to hold hundreds of empty systems so long as we have isk in the bank, they force us to need vast empires to support our members, they drive us to use large fleets to grind through the huge amounts of HP quickly, they force us to form up for a handful of per timed battles, they force us to need huge fleets to defend from the huge fleets needed to grind down the large amounts of HP and they drive us to use fleet setups that are impossible to kill.

Its not players that drive these things its the way the game works and it will always result in what we see today.

Kagura Nikon wrote:


Sorry but you are wrong YOU (as in both super blocs) are to blame because you both sides combined are not half the quality of Provi bloc for the game.

Do you honestly think provi block could counter our capital blobs that no subcap fleet of any size can kill?
Kagura Nikon wrote:


You were greedy and dumb on a internet spaceship game, that is made to have fun. You dealt with it like a real time job, and now you LOST because you do not have fun anymore. No one is to blame other than the power blocs. The mechanics made it hard to remove such a stalemate after it emerged, but it emerged because of YOU, and your incompetence on dealing with eve as a GAME.

It happened because that is the only result that can happen. Do you honestly expect people to not use the tools given to them to their fullest extent?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#699 - 2014-10-01 11:31:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
baltec1 wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



Sorry but here I must disagree. Mechanics to not make anything, they allow or disallow, they make it effective or non effective. But that is NOT an excuse. Look at provi bloc for PROOF, they kept themselves above pitiful efficiency reasoning and kept a NRDS for years.


They only exist because we allow them to. The mechanics are indeed the very thing that has caused this. They allow for us to hold hundreds of empty systems so long as we have isk in the bank, they force us to need vast empires to support our members, they drive us to use large fleets to grind through the huge amounts of HP quickly, they force us to form up for a handful of per timed battles, they force us to need huge fleets to defend from the huge fleets needed to grind down the large amounts of HP and they drive us to use fleet setups that are impossible to kill.

Its not players that drive these things its the way the game works and it will always result in what we see today.

Kagura Nikon wrote:


Sorry but you are wrong YOU (as in both super blocs) are to blame because you both sides combined are not half the quality of Provi bloc for the game.

Do you honestly think provi block could counter our capital blobs that no subcap fleet of any size can kill?
Kagura Nikon wrote:


You were greedy and dumb on a internet spaceship game, that is made to have fun. You dealt with it like a real time job, and now you LOST because you do not have fun anymore. No one is to blame other than the power blocs. The mechanics made it hard to remove such a stalemate after it emerged, but it emerged because of YOU, and your incompetence on dealing with eve as a GAME.

It happened because that is the only result that can happen. Do you honestly expect people to not use the tools given to them to their fullest extent?



Did you read my post? YES I do expect. If CVA and friends did it, so could you. You guys sound like an über fat guy weightign 500 pounds that eats 5 kg per day of sugar that NEVEr ever tried to esxercise in his whoel life.. complain that their " genes"are to blame for him not being slim

And by quality of provi bloc I am not talking about combat prowes, but as PLAYERS, people that know to not kill their own game.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#700 - 2014-10-01 11:42:52 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:



Did you read my post? YES I do expect. If CVA and friends did it, so could you. You guys sound like an über fat guy weightign 500 pounds that eats 5 kg per day of sugar that NEVEr ever tried to esxercise in his whoel life.. complain that their " genes"are to blame for him not being slim

And by quality of provi bloc I am not talking about combat prowes, but as PLAYERS, people that know to not kill their own game.


Choosing to not shoot at neuts does not make people good at EVE, taking over half of nullsec and being all but unbeaten for years does. Call us fat all you want but we are the people who have won EVE. The exact same thing has happened on the chinese server and will happen again on any other server under the current mechanics.