These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The Null Deal: A Statement from Sovereign Nullsec

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ivory Kantenu
Apotheosis.
#601 - 2014-10-01 03:11:21 UTC
Strange Shadow wrote:
Occupancy SOV just adds even more grind than current system.

For SOV warfare, structure grind is replaced by rat grind (or whatever grind, to prove that you 'occupied' here). For both attacker and defender. All day long, for a few days, for each system. Average null people will be rejoiced to grind more stuff i imagine, so many signatures under that letter.
For SOV holding, few afk cloakers with cynos can conquer SOV for anybody in a few days, even if deadspace instances used - just bridge few ceptors through to catch that phat ratting golem, ceptors with 'warping speed' rigs will get on top of him in 15 seconds.
Also for SOV holding, ratting becomes mandatory, it will be more like going to work rather than logging to play game.
Current system is way better in all those regards.

Whoever proposed occupancy SOV had not thought it through obviously.



Occupied Sov can come from more than just ratting, you know. Be it Mining, Manufacturing (Stations and POS), Planetary Interation, Exploration, PVP...

Do I need to keep listing here or do you get the gist?

[i]Learn the basics of Wormhole Selling: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101693&find=unread[/i]
criativa
Zugleich Techniken
#602 - 2014-10-01 03:18:17 UTC
Supported.
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#603 - 2014-10-01 04:16:16 UTC
There is one aspect of this proposal that is not explored: what if the proposal isn't some underhanded manipulation to serve the signatories, but indeed a honest attempt to help the little guys enter nullsec.

We have statistics that only 10% of the WoW population raided in heroic difficulty (killed one boss), so the hardest WoW content still retained some exclusivity and requires some skills to complete.

In EVE, 60-80K pilots are in nullsec alliances and renters. That's already over 20% of the accounts. Allowing even more "little guys" (scrubs) to nullsec by nerfs would make the "Dark PvP Game (TM)" literally much easier than WoW.

Do you honestly want players who failed in WoW to come to EVE because it's easier? Should we get to the point when WoW raiders yell at people who failed "go back to EVE"?

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#604 - 2014-10-01 04:37:57 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
There is one aspect of this proposal that is not explored: what if the proposal isn't some underhanded manipulation to serve the signatories, but indeed a honest attempt to help the little guys enter nullsec.

We have statistics that only 10% of the WoW population raided in heroic difficulty (killed one boss), so the hardest WoW content still retained some exclusivity and requires some skills to complete.

In EVE, 60-80K pilots are in nullsec alliances and renters. That's already over 20% of the accounts. Allowing even more "little guys" (scrubs) to nullsec by nerfs would make the "Dark PvP Game (TM)" literally much easier than WoW.

Do you honestly want players who failed in WoW to come to EVE because it's easier? Should we get to the point when WoW raiders yell at people who failed "go back to EVE"?


I would guess we would arrive at a similar conclusion wow arrived at, most players dont want to die over and over and be shouted at for standing in green/red/black/pink(?) goo/cloud/patch/ray/balloon(?) while doing it.

Similarly it is not unreasonable to say that most players here would not enjoy much and/or long constantly looking around their shoulder and loosing ships to camps/blops/supers on a regular basis.

Its kinda a win-win scenario on a selfish level, either i will be right or be proven wrong and the game will become better :)
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#605 - 2014-10-01 04:46:38 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
There is one aspect of this proposal that is not explored: what if the proposal isn't some underhanded manipulation to serve the signatories, but indeed a honest attempt to help the little guys enter nullsec.

We have statistics that only 10% of the WoW population raided in heroic difficulty (killed one boss), so the hardest WoW content still retained some exclusivity and requires some skills to complete.

In EVE, 60-80K pilots are in nullsec alliances and renters. That's already over 20% of the accounts. Allowing even more "little guys" (scrubs) to nullsec by nerfs would make the "Dark PvP Game (TM)" literally much easier than WoW.

Do you honestly want players who failed in WoW to come to EVE because it's easier? Should we get to the point when WoW raiders yell at people who failed "go back to EVE"?


I would guess we would arrive at a similar conclusion wow arrived at, most players dont want to die over and over and be shouted at for standing in green/red/black/pink(?) goo/cloud/patch/ray/balloon(?) while doing it.

Similarly it is not unreasonable to say that most players here would not enjoy much and/or long constantly looking around their shoulder and loosing ships to camps/blops/supers on a regular basis.

Its kinda a win-win scenario on a selfish level, either i will be right or be proven wrong and the game will become better :)


EVE is a different game. EVE needs PvP. It's the decay system in the game. Like Raids, WoW or something I am better able to compare, the dungeon grind of FF14 ARR, it was only forced on people by way of reward. If you don't raid grind, you never obtain l33t gear. That's not really true in EVE. I can buy anything and everything in Jita and that's a result of the Null people willing and really, forced to sell it to me to pay their rental tax .aka Sov bills.

I suppose CCP could make all T2 bound to character. That wouldn't create a mass rage moment /sarcasm
Strange Shadow
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#606 - 2014-10-01 04:59:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Strange Shadow
Ivory Kantenu wrote:
Strange Shadow wrote:
Occupancy SOV just adds even more grind than current system.

For SOV warfare, structure grind is replaced by rat grind (or whatever grind, to prove that you 'occupied' here). For both attacker and defender. All day long, for a few days, for each system. Average null people will be rejoiced to grind more stuff i imagine, so many signatures under that letter.
For SOV holding, few afk cloakers with cynos can conquer SOV for anybody in a few days, even if deadspace instances used - just bridge few ceptors through to catch that phat ratting golem, ceptors with 'warping speed' rigs will get on top of him in 15 seconds.
Also for SOV holding, ratting becomes mandatory, it will be more like going to work rather than logging to play game.
Current system is way better in all those regards.

Whoever proposed occupancy SOV had not thought it through obviously.



Occupied Sov can come from more than just ratting, you know. Be it Mining, Manufacturing (Stations and POS), Planetary Interation, Exploration, PVP...

Do I need to keep listing here or do you get the gist?


And for purposes of SOV warfare all i see is "mining grind, explorer grind, and more grind". Do you get the gist? Or how else do you propose to contest SOV?

Face it, occupancy SOV favors renters, they are FORCED to grind to pay the rent. I can understand goons voting for this system. Everyone else? Just their cattle.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#607 - 2014-10-01 05:29:41 UTC
Oh look... another dominion topic.

At this rate... we'll be back to revisiting Incarna in about 3 expansions / releases and or 9 months.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#608 - 2014-10-01 05:35:45 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
There is one aspect of this proposal that is not explored: what if the proposal isn't some underhanded manipulation to serve the signatories, but indeed a honest attempt to help the little guys enter nullsec.

We have statistics that only 10% of the WoW population raided in heroic difficulty (killed one boss), so the hardest WoW content still retained some exclusivity and requires some skills to complete.

In EVE, 60-80K pilots are in nullsec alliances and renters. That's already over 20% of the accounts. Allowing even more "little guys" (scrubs) to nullsec by nerfs would make the "Dark PvP Game (TM)" literally much easier than WoW.

Do you honestly want players who failed in WoW to come to EVE because it's easier? Should we get to the point when WoW raiders yell at people who failed "go back to EVE"?


EVE is not WoW, null is by itself not an endgame PvE content. You have failed to provide a single valid support for your argument so far. I don't think this is a place for your lamentations derived from not being able to get into, or affect null game so far. In my opinion, you are only pushing your objections because it's incompatible with your personal narrative that under the current system, you had some mythical affect on null politics.

You didn't, and the only thing you might be right about is that with what is proposed by 90% of the null dwellers, including non-sov holding little guys, you will still not be able to have any affect on the null game.

You should stop demanding bailouts from CCP to make you get into null game because you cannot by yourself.

Success in null game is all about organization, group work and good management. Those who cannot adhere to an already existing organization by finding themselves a places within, or start their own organization should not expect CCP to skew the rules so that they can be overnight winners by themselves.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#609 - 2014-10-01 05:38:06 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Oh look... another dominion topic.

At this rate... we'll be back to revisiting Incarna in about 3 expansions / releases and or 9 months.


Incarna could do with a proper revisiting.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#610 - 2014-10-01 05:49:34 UTC
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
ok - so instead of seeing massive alliances stomp all over small ones at timer based points like POS-timers, we'll see the massive alliance perma-camping the small alliance's system, forcing them out, EVERY TIME THEY TRY TO ESTABLISH

bullies never like upstarts, and that's basically what sov is - being able to bully someone else out.


So please explain how we do that to several thousand systems.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#611 - 2014-10-01 05:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Strange Shadow wrote:

And for purposes of SOV warfare all i see is "mining grind, explorer grind, and more grind". Do you get the gist? Or how else do you propose to contest SOV?



What I was wondering. Was never partial to this idea. Here's why:


To keep sov...you have to be in the system.

To expand sov....you have to do a road trip with most of your people. Ergo your occupancy is down to maintain the sov as readlily.


So.....in week 1 of campaign against blob A all they have to do is either split forces to go sit in your space. Or pay mercs to do it. Longer that campaign wears on, more the invaders sov is being eaten away. Yay....we took 3 systems from blob A. And lost 3 systems to merc/Blob A partial zerg rush in our garrison....doh.

Long story short...I am seeing occupancy discourage road tripping. Sure you'd like to go take some sov...but then you aren't home to keep your space. Now you have 2 stalemates. Your saving force back in garrison sitting around to get the sov resecured for maybe days. And your offensive push on the frontlines is stalling since you have peeps in high numbers in garrison as just mentioned. edit: at least with current mechanics you can ping pogn around on jc ops to try for both.


Which leads to what you said about (grrr) goons being kind of accurate. They like to rent. get enough renters, they can roadtrip and keep the homefires burning strong with renter density. This ofc applies to any crew who likes to play online landlord...or would it be spacelord? lol.
Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#612 - 2014-10-01 07:18:55 UTC
Very good starting point, now nerf jump bridge range and make outposts destructible and add something like the heavy bomber someone posted in F&I awhile ago, a ship which excels at fighting supers, would be good at fighting capitals but suck at pretty much everything else like a big player controlled fighter bomber with reasonable survivability and price tag (not too squishy and not too cheap) and things could be looking up in null space.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#613 - 2014-10-01 07:34:07 UTC
Elsa Hayes wrote:
Very good starting point, now nerf jump bridge range and make outposts destructible and add something like the heavy bomber someone posted in F&I awhile ago, a ship which excels at fighting supers, would be good at fighting capitals but suck at pretty much everything else like a big player controlled fighter bomber with reasonable survivability and price tag (not too squishy and not too cheap) and things could be looking up in null space.


You just invalidated dreads.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#614 - 2014-10-01 07:52:43 UTC
Has anyone theory crafted a hybrid between occupancy & what we have now? TCU's or whatever to claim sov when the system is unoccupied, but if nothing happens (mining, ratting, production, whatever) in the system for a period of time you lose it? The upside is you wouldn't have to have people shooting red crosses or rocks to claim sov, but if your entire alliance deploys somewhere & neglects your home space, someone else can take it. Also occupancy doesn't have to be limited to ratting & mining activities.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Regatto
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#615 - 2014-10-01 08:01:03 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Has anyone theory crafted a hybrid between occupancy & what we have now? TCU's or whatever to claim sov when the system is unoccupied, but if nothing happens (mining, ratting, production, whatever) in the system for a period of time you lose it? The upside is you wouldn't have to have people shooting red crosses or rocks to claim sov, but if your entire alliance deploys somewhere & neglects your home space, someone else can take it. Also occupancy doesn't have to be limited to ratting & mining activities.


Yeah thats pretty much what I was saying...claiming sov by ratting would be absolutly stupid imo. Occupancy should only result in alliance losing sov or some benefits and making it very vulnarable.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#616 - 2014-10-01 08:22:36 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
There is one aspect of this proposal that is not explored: what if the proposal isn't some underhanded manipulation to serve the signatories, but indeed a honest attempt to help the little guys enter nullsec.

We have statistics that only 10% of the WoW population raided in heroic difficulty (killed one boss), so the hardest WoW content still retained some exclusivity and requires some skills to complete.

In EVE, 60-80K pilots are in nullsec alliances and renters. That's already over 20% of the accounts. Allowing even more "little guys" (scrubs) to nullsec by nerfs would make the "Dark PvP Game (TM)" literally much easier than WoW.

Do you honestly want players who failed in WoW to come to EVE because it's easier? Should we get to the point when WoW raiders yell at people who failed "go back to EVE"?


I would guess we would arrive at a similar conclusion wow arrived at, most players dont want to die over and over and be shouted at for standing in green/red/black/pink(?) goo/cloud/patch/ray/balloon(?) while doing it.

Similarly it is not unreasonable to say that most players here would not enjoy much and/or long constantly looking around their shoulder and loosing ships to camps/blops/supers on a regular basis.

Its kinda a win-win scenario on a selfish level, either i will be right or be proven wrong and the game will become better :)


EVE is a different game. EVE needs PvP. It's the decay system in the game. Like Raids, WoW or something I am better able to compare, the dungeon grind of FF14 ARR, it was only forced on people by way of reward. If you don't raid grind, you never obtain l33t gear. That's not really true in EVE. I can buy anything and everything in Jita and that's a result of the Null people willing and really, forced to sell it to me to pay their rental tax .aka Sov bills.

I suppose CCP could make all T2 bound to character. That wouldn't create a mass rage moment /sarcasm


Nice flamebait for someone who cares, but for myself, please explain how relevant (i heard your group likes that word) it is to the argument put forward by mr crazy goblin or (crazy) me :)
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#617 - 2014-10-01 08:50:05 UTC
The economy is largely based on stuff getting blown up. If stuff doesn't get blown up, people won't buy new stuff.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#618 - 2014-10-01 09:23:42 UTC
Could the need of occupying sov space to claim ownership not simply be avoided by multiboxing?
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#619 - 2014-10-01 09:29:30 UTC
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Could the need of occupying sov space to claim ownership not simply be avoided by multiboxing?


And it'll be lost just as easily due to how horribly you can multibox in PvP.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#620 - 2014-10-01 09:33:49 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
There is one aspect of this proposal that is not explored: what if the proposal isn't some underhanded manipulation to serve the signatories, but indeed a honest attempt to help the little guys enter nullsec.

We have statistics that only 10% of the WoW population raided in heroic difficulty (killed one boss), so the hardest WoW content still retained some exclusivity and requires some skills to complete.

In EVE, 60-80K pilots are in nullsec alliances and renters. That's already over 20% of the accounts. Allowing even more "little guys" (scrubs) to nullsec by nerfs would make the "Dark PvP Game (TM)" literally much easier than WoW.

Do you honestly want players who failed in WoW to come to EVE because it's easier? Should we get to the point when WoW raiders yell at people who failed "go back to EVE"?


Human social interaction to achieve a goal 24/7 versus scripted encounters which require pure grind at predetermined time and date for x hours per week. If one has done both then they'd understand how different these things are. They would also understand the difference in the games and their cultures.

Why are you leaving out high-level PvP'ers (I know, oxymoron) in WoW from this statistic? How many take part in e.g. arenas or other PvP grind which requires a more complex skillset than knowing when to press arcane missiles?