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The Null Deal: A Statement from Sovereign Nullsec

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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#561 - 2014-09-30 17:56:51 UTC
So from a "little guy" in support of the idea:

1) I love the idea of more NPC null. We're a little band of merry BLOPSers but hey its a living. As someone who does the logistics for these fleets and has a very good network of cyno alts staged around, its a giant PITA to get to some places in null. Yes I CAN get to Tenal and the upper left hand corner of Deklein on dotlan.... that doesn't make it practical. A little NPC space fixes this.

2) If all this accomplishes is that N3/PL/CFC can't rent the SW corner of the map in a practical fashion, we've made room for another big block at least. Thats progress and buys CCP some time to fix stuff to get MORE players in the game. Then we can look at making them some more room.

3) We don't know the mechanics of the force projection nerf or the mechanics of the sov system. The nerf to force projection may make it impractical to move your slowcat/boot fleet too far from home. Those sudden sov drops can suck after all...

Every day I'm wafflin!
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#562 - 2014-09-30 18:09:20 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
That's the point of the new proposal, coupled with the fact that they could move in to NPC Deklein. And oh my, 20 jumps is too far for MOA? What a tragedy.

No, it's not far geographically. But it's very far politically. I mean
- the Goons will be no threat to them, fighting for "freedom and independence" will be silly as the last Goon they've seen in Pure Blind was a lost noob in a Rifter 3 last month.
- Goons won't have anything MoA want or reasonably could take either. Sure they'd still have Deklein Sov, but PB sov is just as good and under occupancy Sov mechanics they are struggling to keep the indexes of one PB constellation up.
- The corp of Arthasdklól recently left WoW for EVE because he heard they have open world housing and there are lot of free "land spots" in Pure Blind. They provide much easier "fights" than the Nyx-ratter Goons.

So there would be absolutely no reason to shoot Goons besides "Grr Goons". And "Grr Goons" is only interesting while Goons are relevant. After Goons would be just a small spot on the map, hating them would be rather idiotic, just like when The Mittani makes a hate speech against BoB who were destroyed before I started playing 3 years ago.

The reason of this proposal is to shrink the large coalitions into small spots so people stop bumping into them and killing them. 3.3T/month was probably too much.

Anyway, I'm completely sure that this suggestion serves no one but the signatories. Which is kind of obvious, see Malcanis law.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#563 - 2014-09-30 19:01:44 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
After Goons would be just a small spot on the map, hating them would be rather idiotic,

is hating a social organisation any more justified or reasonable only because it's influential
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#564 - 2014-09-30 19:12:54 UTC
ok - so instead of seeing massive alliances stomp all over small ones at timer based points like POS-timers, we'll see the massive alliance perma-camping the small alliance's system, forcing them out, EVERY TIME THEY TRY TO ESTABLISH

bullies never like upstarts, and that's basically what sov is - being able to bully someone else out.

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Ms Forum Alt
Doomheim
#565 - 2014-09-30 19:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Let us just leave it at whatever toys CCP throws into the sand pit, the players will eventually break them and we'll be back here all over again.

The game is finished because the two largest blocs are too chicken to declare war on each other.

And those Something Awful DW say it's only a game. You'd think they'd revel in the chaos and destruction. *Snip* Please refrain from spreading baseless rumors. ISD Ezwal.
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#566 - 2014-09-30 19:51:18 UTC
Ms Forum Alt wrote:
The game is finished because the two largest blocs are too chicken to declare war on each other.

Where's the point? There's nothing fun about shoving 1500 people (each side) into a system and have them slug it out at 10% tidi in soul-crushing lag.

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#567 - 2014-09-30 19:51:30 UTC
Ms Forum Alt wrote:

The game is finished because the two largest blocs are too chicken to declare war on each other.


We have nothing to fight over, and any fight between us will also involve everyone else in Eve wanting to get on some titan KMs piling into a single system, and turning a 2 hour fight into a 20 hour fight.
Ms Forum Alt
Doomheim
#568 - 2014-09-30 19:56:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ms Forum Alt
Enaris Kerle wrote:
Ms Forum Alt wrote:
The game is finished because the two largest blocs are too chicken to declare war on each other.

Where's the point? There's nothing fun about shoving 1500 people (each side) into a system and have them slug it out at 10% tidi in soul-crushing lag.


I know, it's true. That's why I said the game is broken, end-game, finished, done for.
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#569 - 2014-09-30 19:57:02 UTC
more npc space = more empire gangs that come to null sec to play station games

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#570 - 2014-09-30 20:08:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ocih
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ocih wrote:
The NRDS system is a three point system. Blue, Red and Neutral. You continue to neglect the Neutrals.The NBSI system is a fence, nobody is neutral. Blue Donut is not a mechanic. It's a place in time that came about from NBSI game play. It has happened before. In addition, there are aspects of Provi Bloc NRDS I think could be improved upon and refined.

There are other factors to this, factors you haven't mentioned that make an NRDS sector of CFC unlikely.
- One, you don't have the credibility to run it.
- Two, you could argue if it did take off, you would see more PvE but not PvP. I'm pretty sure the the obvious is at play here though. The only hot spots in EVE right now are in NRDS space.
- History also shows the Nerf bat follows the populace and not mechanical balance factors. So introducing more people to Null is going to see the nerf bat make its way out of popular high sec.

By the nature of your solution you are in fact agreeing with me, NBSI is the problem. You don't want me, A Neutral to dock up in your stations. You want CCP to offer NPC stations I can dock up in. I can tell you based on the option to move to Sansha regions now has crossed my mind but I can't create supply lines to get there. I can't create a logistics scenario that lets me live there.

The true difference I think we have is, you seem content with Null populace and are fine with dividing up the Null players in to Blue and not blue. My goal for Null is to see more people in it and to include the true neutral. The people who don't hate you, don't like you, don't care what you do. They make up 70% of the EVE population.
I'm pretty sure if we were NRDS, everyone would just be red or blue.

And anyway, the problem is that sov mechanics favour enormous groups by their very nature, so creating super coalitions is simply the best way to efficiently hold space. NRDS wouldn't change who owns the space, it would just be allowing free renting. It may work for proviblock since they life in space so terrible that nearly nobody wants it, but it really wouldn't work with serious null alliances.


In my original suggestion that CFC introduce an NRDS aspect, the idea wasn't that they adopt an exclusive NRDS policy. I made that very clear too. They do it by system to region. I'd in fact suggest the same thing to CVA and their allies. That they make a few dead end systems military zones. This idea that Provi sucks and the only reason Provi is NRDS is because it sucks is false and lets face it. Most Sov space sucks in that it can't support itself as Sov space. How we subsidy the systems is working with both NRDS and NBSI but it's NBSI space that has no pew pew.

I don't see CCP adding more systems. It has been asked for a hundred times, ignored a hundred times. Maybe they could add wormhole space with non conquerable stations. Wormhole space that links deep Null to Low and High, offers little to no PvE content but insures a logistical PvP incursion point. Even that would evolve in to power bloc camping.

It still amounts to EVE being a machine and once you beat the machine, the only flexibility is on us. As it sits, none of us are flexible. Nothing CCP do is going to 'con' high sec people in to Null, nothing CCP do is going to stop Null bloc's from blobbing. As well intentioned as CFC and other parties might be, the solution is a band aid.
Regatto
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#571 - 2014-09-30 20:15:57 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Ms Forum Alt wrote:

The game is finished because the two largest blocs are too chicken to declare war on each other.


We have nothing to fight over, and any fight between us will also involve everyone else in Eve wanting to get on some titan KMs piling into a single system, and turning a 2 hour fight into a 20 hour fight.




well exactly! Eve null should be about nice fights where couple of alliances brawl it out together...not putting one coalition to two regions and having even more stupid tidi and lags What?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#572 - 2014-09-30 20:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Are you saying that there would be no requirement for the CFC to stay together if you get the sort of sov-system you are after?


The CFC exists because the sov system requires huge fleets to attack and defend timers. An occupancy based system takes away sov timers and requires an attrition campaign to contest sov.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#573 - 2014-09-30 21:25:25 UTC
Ocih wrote:
In my original suggestion that CFC introduce an NRDS aspect, the idea wasn't that they adopt an exclusive NRDS policy. I made that very clear too. They do it by system to region. I'd in fact suggest the same thing to CVA and their allies. That they make a few dead end systems military zones. This idea that Provi sucks and the only reason Provi is NRDS is because it sucks is false and lets face it. Most Sov space sucks in that it can't support itself as Sov space. How we subsidy the systems is working with both NRDS and NBSI but it's NBSI space that has no pew pew.
But provi really does suck. The space is terrible and the people are about the equivalent of being in an NPC corp. There's no real identity to them, they are just a bunch of randoms who are too risk averse to fight each other. If that were what null turned into I'd just move to high sec.

Ocih wrote:
It still amounts to EVE being a machine and once you beat the machine, the only flexibility is on us. As it sits, none of us are flexible. Nothing CCP do is going to 'con' high sec people in to Null, nothing CCP do is going to stop Null bloc's from blobbing. As well intentioned as CFC and other parties might be, the solution is a band aid.
Mate, that's not going to happen. EVE players will always try to find the most efficient way of doing everything. The only way for that to stop is for the mechanics to evolve as the players do. You can't just go "well lets hope this time round the players are more flexible", since it's not going to happen. Sure, it would be nice if it could happen, but it never ever will. The thing is, nullsec isn't the only place this exists, this exists in incursions, faction warfare, mining, even highsec missions. Yet out of all of those, it's only nullsec that gets dogpiled onto by everyone and his nan about how null players are "doing it wrong".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#574 - 2014-09-30 21:32:21 UTC
I've given this some thought and I'm actually gonna do a complete 180 on this. CCP should implement the whole population density thing post haste on TQ. I was wrong, I'm sorry.

To anyone opposed to the idea for misguided reasons, two questions to consider:

1) What happens when all the nullbears and renters of a coalition are condensed into ~10 pve systems and the surrounding systems are generally inadequate for pve due to lack of upgrades/activity?

2) What do renters fear most?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#575 - 2014-09-30 21:39:11 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I've given this some thought and I'm actually gonna do a complete 180 on this. CCP should implement the whole population density thing post haste on TQ. I was wrong, I'm sorry.

To anyone opposed to the idea for misguided reasons, two questions to consider:

1) What happens when all the nullbears and renters of a coalition are condensed into ~10 pve systems and the surrounding systems are generally inadequate for pve due to lack of upgrades/activity?

2) What do renters fear most?


I'm going to answer these rhetorical questions just because I can.

1) Why, local starts looking like highsec and god help you actually notice when someone new has come into a highsec system.

2) Okay, so I'm not going to answer both questions because I'm not a renter.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#576 - 2014-09-30 21:42:30 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

1) What happens when all the nullbears and renters of a coalition are condensed into ~10 pve systems and the surrounding systems are generally inadequate for pve due to lack of upgrades/activity?



They quit? Or am i stating the obvious?
Plukovnik
Dark Necesstity
#577 - 2014-09-30 21:53:14 UTC
Problem: no enemies within 20+ jumps.
Solution: disband coalitions, reset, cancel botlord agreement. You dont need CCP for this.

I hope CCP does not help nullsec holders even more. They deserve to drown in the swamp of boredom they created.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#578 - 2014-09-30 21:53:41 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
I've given this some thought and I'm actually gonna do a complete 180 on this. CCP should implement the whole population density thing post haste on TQ. I was wrong, I'm sorry.

To anyone opposed to the idea for misguided reasons, two questions to consider:

1) What happens when all the nullbears and renters of a coalition are condensed into ~10 pve systems and the surrounding systems are generally inadequate for pve due to lack of upgrades/activity?

2) What do renters fear most?


I'm going to answer these rhetorical questions just because I can.

1) Why, local starts looking like highsec and god help you actually notice when someone new has come into a highsec system.

2) Okay, so I'm not going to answer both questions because I'm not a renter.

The answer to (1) and (2) is actually the same: The afk cloaker.

It's also probably the reason why pasta is a signatory of this proposal.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#579 - 2014-09-30 21:54:57 UTC
If you think null is deserted now, wait until there are npc stations full of archon fleets and jump clones distributed neatly across all of null. It will make bridging and cynos feel like waiting for a postcard from your great aunt Mammy Thule. (without the mustache)
Mikhem
Taxisk Unlimited
#580 - 2014-09-30 22:05:43 UTC
There seems to be big need for sovereignty system change. In current system lots of empty systems are controlled by large alliances. My (evil) mind came up something that could help this situation:

Could Territorial Claim units require POS fuel blocks? This would force large alliances to maintain their areas. Also there would be window to sabotage sovereignty ownage by just attacking transport/industrial moving fuel blocks. If TCU runs out of fuel blocks it would be destroyed. TCU could require fuel blocks from all major races in EVE.

Comments are welcome for my idea.

Mikhem

Link library to EVE music songs.