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A counter to NPC aggro switching in PVP situations

Author
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1 - 2014-09-28 17:45:42 UTC
Prior to the Retribution update, NPC's did not switch aggression once targeted on the first player in the area. This change was for the most part good when it comes to improving the PVE experience. In particular, it added an element of randomness and unpredictability for the player fighting the NPC's. I could no longer send in one tank ship to take all the aggro, then bring in as many max-DPS ships to kill everything, or bring in a remote repair ship without having to worry about its local tank.

It also fundamentally altered another aspect of Eve, and in this regard I think the changes were less positive. It vastly increased the difficulty of solo anti-ratter operations. I'm not alone in this - for example there is this nice old thread bemoaning the change from nearly 18 months ago.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=203437

Thus far, no significant changes to NPC AI have been forthcoming. So, when I attempt to go for a kill anywhere that NPC's are involved, I immediately have to deal with the fact that I am the new "bright shiny object with electronic warfare" and deal with all the NPC's trying to kill me, in addition to the player's best efforts to kill me. Never mind that the player I am attacking is at -9.99 standing to those NPC's and three seconds before I decloaked or warped in, he was happily murdering them by the bushel.

This may not matter that much when I have a gang behind me, but for a solo player, particularly a stealth bomber or recon ship, it often spells the end to the action. Even if I have fit everything to deal with the player's ship, I still have to deal with the NPC's. Try doing that in a stealth bomber against an Ishtar or Dominix.

Since I think this is a problem, I'd like to propose a couple of potential solutions. CCP should implement one or more of these options to improve Eve.

Option 1: CCP could add pirate faction ship skins for stealth bombers, force reconnaissance, and Black Ops ships (and maybe eventually for other ships). Not only would these look awesome, they would also make the rats not hate your ship. These would, as far as I know, be the only ship skins to give an advantage to a ship that was more than cosmetic. That fact alone makes them controversial. Consequently, these skins would come from NPC drops and LP stores - rather than the NEX store. Basically it would work as follows: if I get a Guristas Manticore skin, I put it on the ship. Now, when I am inside a complex or on a gate or in a belt, Guristas NPC's will not target me unless I engage them first or unless I remote assist another player who is aggressed toward or by those NPC's. I could then use my Guristas Manticore inside of Guristas anomalies, complexes, and missions to assist my beloved NPC friends against ratters. Just like that, solo hunting in a stealth bomber or recon ship becomes a viable option again. Of course the Manticore is not the ideal choice for hunting Guristas ratters, but that is a trade-off I have to accept. Or, perhaps all pirate faction NPC's would recognize a "fellow pirate ship" come to assist them based on that skin.

Option 2: CCP could add pirate faction militia corporations - faction warfare for pirate factions. For instance, all players in the Guristas militia corporation would not be targeted by Guristas NPC's, except in self-defense. Militia members aggressing fellow militia members, Guristas NPC's, stealing resources from belts in Guristas space, or directly assisting those aggressing them would suffer vastly increased standings losses towards Guristas. Failure to maintain 8.0 faction standing (or some similarly high amount) would result in the player being kicked from the militia corporation at the next downtime and banned from the corporation for thirty days. All pirate faction militia members would be persona non grata in high security space.

Option 3: CCP could add a module that acts as a pirate ship transponder. This should probably be a high slot module, to prevent mining ships from wanting to fit it. When activated, this module prevents NPC's from targeting the player's ship. This module cannot be activated by any player with an NPC aggro timer and deactivates as soon as the player gains an NPC aggro timer. Remote repairing anyone with an NPC aggro timer automatically causes an NPC aggro timer for the assisting pilot.

Option 4: CCP could fix NPC AI so that NPC's can recognize that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend," at least temporarily.

Any or all of these options could be implemented to improve the viability of solo anti-ratting hunting and increase risk for ratters. Personally, I think Option 1 and Option 4 are the best.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-09-28 17:52:17 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:


Option 4: CCP could fix NPC AI so that NPC's can recognize that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend," at least temporarily.


That's the same as saying Russia and ISIS are friends because they both hate the US
Ohkewl
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-09-28 17:58:18 UTC
so in short, you want risk free ratter ganking?
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-09-28 18:02:49 UTC
you really think you havent enough advantage against a pve fit ship?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#5 - 2014-09-28 18:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Ohkewl wrote:
so in short, you want risk free ratter ganking?


As someone who rats in null sec, a lot, I think I know a lot more about the risks of ratting in null sec than you do. There are two sides to every coin. There is me, -9.99 to every pirate faction in whose space I have ever spent time, with the "Elite Carebear" certificate to match, and my ratter hunting character, who has never shot a single rat. Right now, the balance is way in my favor.

The risk in this situation should come primarily from the opposing player. Have you ever tried to solo an Ishtar - the dominant ratting ship across Eve - in a stealth bomber? With the right fit and skills and no rat interference, it is still a tall order.

It would appear that the School of Applied Knowledge is thoroughly against making ratting in null sec slightly more risky. What say the actual null sec residents?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#6 - 2014-09-28 18:14:42 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:


Option 4: CCP could fix NPC AI so that NPC's can recognize that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend," at least temporarily.


That's the same as saying Russia and ISIS are friends because they both hate the US


Without getting into the politics of the situation in your example (Russia and ISIS are actually enemies because Russia is allied with Assad), in both Eve and the real world, there are all sorts of temporary alliances of convenience. I have been in fleets where we cooperated with Black Legion or Pandemic Legion to kill someone we mutually disliked, only to then GTFO as quickly as possible because I knew that as soon as the other threat was dead, I would look like a tasty morsel to the BL or PL fleet.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-09-28 19:56:54 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Ohkewl wrote:
so in short, you want risk free ratter ganking?

The risk in this situation should come primarily from the opposing player. Have you ever tried to solo an Ishtar - the dominant ratting ship across Eve - in a stealth bomber? With the right fit and skills and no rat interference, it is still a tall order.

this just means that a bomber its not the right tool to fight an ishtar, because you have an hammer you ask that the whole world be remade into nails basically.
just switch to a more apt tools for the specific need.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#8 - 2014-09-29 10:51:58 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:


The risk in this situation should come primarily from the opposing player. Have you ever tried to solo an Ishtar - the dominant ratting ship across Eve - in a stealth bomber? With the right fit and skills and no rat interference, it is still a tall order.
?


Have you tried using a different ship?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#9 - 2014-09-29 17:38:16 UTC
Sure, I've tried using different ships. What truly solo ship do you recommend for roaming deep in solo space to successfully catch and kill ratters? Not "solo" with neutral scout and off-grid booster, but really solo. A good T3 could do it now, but prior to the NPC aggro change, you could use a stealth bomber or recon ship. I'd just like to see those days return.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Gh0stBust3rs
Templars HIghsec
Stellar Fusion
#10 - 2014-09-29 17:45:22 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Sure, I've tried using different ships. What truly solo ship do you recommend for roaming deep in solo space to successfully catch and kill ratters? Not "solo" with neutral scout and off-grid booster, but really solo. A good T3 could do it now, but prior to the NPC aggro change, you could use a stealth bomber or recon ship. I'd just like to see those days return.



Try a Stratios. Change your Drone loadout to an off damage for the region your in Tank to the region your hunting in.(Free tip the damage the rats do is the same as the guy shooting the rats)

So if your hunting in Guristas space tank for kinetic and do EM damage. Harvest tears.


A solo bomber should not be able to tackle hold and kill something anyways. It is designed as a group weapon system. Either with Bombing Runs or Torping down a larger target.

Then again Solo Ceptors (or packs of 2-3) have been able to **** Afktars for a while now. Try finding a different tool.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#11 - 2014-09-29 17:48:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
FT Diomedes wrote:
solo an Ishtar - in a stealth bomber

Straight...and you're think the npcs are the issue.

that's not what bombers are for.
you want an assault frigate(assuming you want to frigate) with high resists,small sig and good great tracking
and possibly drones of its own for killing ishthars solo.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#12 - 2014-09-29 17:55:54 UTC
I'll check out the Stratios, but I still think there should be a way to avoid rat aggro while attacking ratters.

I used to love the Pilgrim for this purpose, but it is toast with the current mechanics.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-09-29 19:05:18 UTC
Why can't you wait for the NPC to be dead before uncloaking or at least for less to be on the field?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#14 - 2014-09-29 19:26:40 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Why can't you wait for the NPC to be dead before uncloaking or at least for less to be on the field?

They put pressure on the targets tank , making it much easier to break than otherwise.

I hear good things about the proteus op, maby look at a cloaked blaster gank boat...
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#15 - 2014-09-29 20:00:48 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Why can't you wait for the NPC to be dead before uncloaking or at least for less to be on the field?


In my experience, most people don't rat for very long with a neutral or hostile in local. If you are hunting solo, you often have to take the ratter as you find him. Most people POS up as soon as you enter local. Those who don't are totally AFK or very reckless. Trying to wait for the optimum rat spawn means you probably won't even get off a shot.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Alundil
Rolled Out
#16 - 2014-09-29 20:08:12 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Why can't you wait for the NPC to be dead before uncloaking or at least for less to be on the field?

Because the only ones you'll catch if you wait (in all areas not wspace) are the dumb ones or the AFK ones.

Waiting is not an option in 99% of the cases. (Thanks to Local Intel - the greatest intel tool the NSA never had).

I'm right behind you

Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#17 - 2014-09-29 20:10:24 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
I hear good things about the proteus op, maby look at a cloaked blaster gank boat...


They really are quite solid. Pretty easy to make a 500+ DPS cloaky proteus, with 500+ EHPS on an AAR (for 70-90 seconds), and 75k EHP before boosts. More boosts and rep if you can specifically gear for a particular damage type (Proteus have insane innate kinetic resists, pretty easy to hit ~3000 EHPS and 450k EHP against that damage type).

The only standing downside to the Proteus, and really anything other than a bomber (including a Stratios) is that nastly 5-6 second sensor recalibration delay. That's what makes bombers so amazing for ganking, even solo. They can uncloak and instantly lock and scram a target. I've caught an interceptor hacking in a data site before with a bomber. No way you can do that with a Proteus or Stratios, unless said Inty was simply afk.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#18 - 2014-09-29 22:19:44 UTC
Daenika wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
I hear good things about the proteus op, maby look at a cloaked blaster gank boat...


They really are quite solid. Pretty easy to make a 500+ DPS cloaky proteus, with 500+ EHPS on an AAR (for 70-90 seconds), and 75k EHP before boosts. More boosts and rep if you can specifically gear for a particular damage type (Proteus have insane innate kinetic resists, pretty easy to hit ~3000 EHPS and 450k EHP against that damage type).

The only standing downside to the Proteus, and really anything other than a bomber (including a Stratios) is that nastly 5-6 second sensor recalibration delay. That's what makes bombers so amazing for ganking, even solo. They can uncloak and instantly lock and scram a target. I've caught an interceptor hacking in a data site before with a bomber. No way you can do that with a Proteus or Stratios, unless said Inty was simply afk.

I personally like the hero tackle dual scram Helios. I call it the "Spanish Inquisition"

:)

I'm right behind you

Daenika
Chambers of Shaolin
#19 - 2014-09-29 23:01:22 UTC
Alundil wrote:

I personally like the hero tackle dual scram Helios. I call it the "Spanish Inquisition"

:)


It's solid, but Covops frigates still have the 5-6 second sensor recalibration. Only bombers don't.

I did see a very nasty rocket Nemesis build that almost caught one of my scanners, however. Non-torp fit bombers and still be quite mean.
Marc Durant
#20 - 2014-09-29 23:13:28 UTC
The OP fails to realise that npcs now switching to aggressors was partly the reason for the changes in the first place, there have been tons of seemingly "neutral" changes that actually completely changed how stuff works, all for the betterment of the pve grind clowns.

So they won't change a thing, they wanted it this way.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.

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