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Small gang PVP options for 3-4 noobs?

Author
God's Apples
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#21 - 2014-09-21 14:33:07 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:

Hisec carebear killing teaches you all the necessary skills for full time merc work. Yeah there's more to being a merc, but with mission flipping you are practicing probing, spiraling, micromanaging, and much more... All while flying cheap ships. Not to mention, the meta is delish!



What if I told you that there is pvp outside of highsec. "Merc work" is just shitlords ganking shitlords and then circle jerking about their overall unimpressive carebear kills it in jita local. If you actually learn how to play this game first by pvping in low and null solo or in small gang and decide that highsec might be for you, you can always go back. If you're a garbage carebear killer and decide low or null might for you, you'll just get dunked on because living in high sec has taught you no actual pvp skills. Honestly you can become a miner, industrialist, anom farmer in renter space, but for god's sake don't become a high sec "pvper." You'll just add to the cancer of this game.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX

Alaric Faelen
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2014-09-21 14:33:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alaric Faelen
Some of the best days I have had in New Eden was just myself and two other newbs crashing around low sec and WH looking to get a lock on anything we crossed paths with. We died horribly for the most part, but it was FUN.
3-4 people in even halfway decently fitted ships is a real threat, so your PvP options are wide open. You can just run about in your own small gang- essentially a pirate fleet. Or, join some larger organization together.

If you just stay as your small crew, then try it all. One guy can probably scan, have him find a WH for one fleet. The next time you fly, try staking out FW plexes. Next fleet set up a gate camp at a null entrance gate. Then load up some cats and go gank a miner. You can find PvP anywhere- don't need to narrow down your possibilities.

If you want to do something together like join RvB or FW, you are already ahead of the vast majority of people that end up doing that stuff solo. What makes RvB so neat is that you could also join opposing sides and fight each other then work together during their 'purple' fleets. Just a thought.
Faylee Freir
Slavers Union
Safety.
#23 - 2014-09-21 22:08:08 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:

Hisec carebear killing teaches you all the necessary skills for full time merc work. Yeah there's more to being a merc, but with mission flipping you are practicing probing, spiraling, micromanaging, and much more... All while flying cheap ships. Not to mention, the meta is delish!



What if I told you that there is pvp outside of highsec. "Merc work" is just shitlords ganking shitlords and then circle jerking about their overall unimpressive carebear kills it in jita local. If you actually learn how to play this game first by pvping in low and null solo or in small gang and decide that highsec might be for you, you can always go back. If you're a garbage carebear killer and decide low or null might for you, you'll just get dunked on because living in high sec has taught you no actual pvp skills. Honestly you can become a miner, industrialist, anom farmer in renter space, but for god's sake don't become a high sec "pvper." You'll just add to the cancer of this game.

Sure, there's content everywhere to be had. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and just because you have your own preferences doesn't mean anything else is "bad" or "not fun". Since we're passing our own opinions as facts here, I might as well spew mine. Why PVP in lowsec when everything is either a trap, a blob, or a warp core stabbed plexer? Why PVP in nullsec where all you are is a F1 monkey and everyone safes up as soon as you show up in local? Mission flipping is more than a novelty! So far it is THE MOST cost effective way to learn how to PVP. Sure you don't get much practice sling-shotting or manually flying against skilled pilots, but we're talking about 4 friends that are new to the game.

I don't understand why everyone thinks you HAVE to fly against someone that knows what they are doing in order to learn something. I find it pretty effective to practice spiraling to keep your transversal high, against a low-risk target. You don't HAVE to lose your ship to say, "hey I should have done it this way". Not to mention it helps with multi-tasking and combat probing down targets. Yes, as you learn the basics it would make sense to move on to tougher opponents but saying that hi-sec pvpers are sub-par to anyone else is the game is ignorant.

In the end flying with friends is always fun, no matter what you're shooting or where you're shooting it at.
Domino Vyse
Higgs Cats
War and Wormhole
#24 - 2014-09-21 22:08:58 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:

Hisec carebear killing teaches you all the necessary skills for full time merc work. Yeah there's more to being a merc, but with mission flipping you are practicing probing, spiraling, micromanaging, and much more... All while flying cheap ships. Not to mention, the meta is delish!



What if I told you that there is pvp outside of highsec. "Merc work" is just shitlords ganking shitlords and then circle jerking about their overall unimpressive carebear kills it in jita local. If you actually learn how to play this game first by pvping in low and null solo or in small gang and decide that highsec might be for you, you can always go back. If you're a garbage carebear killer and decide low or null might for you, you'll just get dunked on because living in high sec has taught you no actual pvp skills. Honestly you can become a miner, industrialist, anom farmer in renter space, but for god's sake don't become a high sec "pvper." You'll just add to the cancer of this game.


This.

Also, my advice would be to get into piracy. FW is too fluffy. Jump in to the deep end and learn Eve on hard mode.
Xero Bloodskye
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-09-21 22:57:39 UTC
How would this setup work? http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/62801-Slasher-The-Little-Ship-That-Could.html

I tried the fitting but in the guide he says he gets 111 dps, though I only get 65 with faction ammo. Am I just missing a lot of skills?

Here's a screenshot of my gunnery skills http://i.imgur.com/7r6j1JA.png
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#26 - 2014-09-21 23:34:43 UTC
Xero Bloodskye wrote:
How would this setup work? http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/62801-Slasher-The-Little-Ship-That-Could.html

I tried the fitting but in the guide he says he gets 111 dps, though I only get 65 with faction ammo. Am I just missing a lot of skills?

Here's a screenshot of my gunnery skills http://i.imgur.com/7r6j1JA.png


Yes your missing some skills, that's why the DPS is lower. Not to worry however. That's what your other three buddies are for. Four folk with spread ewar can do a lot while their individual DPS waits on skills.

most of the PVP skills you need to develop don't depend on your skill queue, so don't get hung up on it yet. Skill queue stuff comes like clockwork, it's what you develop in the meantime that can really get you an edge.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2014-09-22 11:59:28 UTC
Xero Bloodskye wrote:
There are four of us, two of us have played a little before and kept training skills and the other two are brand new. We are wanting to do some pvp but we don't really know anything about anything and so I guess the point of this is to ask where to start.

My character has Minmatar frigates/destroyers/cruisers/bcs all to 4-5 and Caldari frigates/cruisers/bcs to 3-4, and about 4.5m total sp.

My friend has Gallente ships all the way to battleships and a ton of points in drones, with about 16m total sp.

We kind of know the basics of how webs and warp scramblers work and a our combat knowledge is basic as far as how ships of different sizes and with different types of weapons fight each other.

What ship makeup would you suggest for the four of us and what is a good way to get into some fun pvp without just getting destroyed by a veteran corp.



First.. congratulations. You guys are going to the CORRECT direction. PVP is much easier to delve into at this level than later.

Just for starters get t1 frigs and go low sec. You first need to elarn to work as a group before thinkign on winning. THEN when you guys learned that, got to t1 cruisers.

No you are NOT ready for anythign larger than that. Not so much because of SP, but because you need more base experience fighting before risking larger stuff.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Xero Bloodskye
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-09-23 20:28:09 UTC
Our experiences so far:

First night, we (two of us) tried flying out to the nearest 0.0 and seeing if we could find anything to shoot. We are based in Rens and we got to a 0.0 in about 10 jumps. We used directional scanners - 360 and flew around and found one small ship. We found it but it was in (we didnt know what it was at the time) a POS with defense turrets. My valiant friend went divebombing into the middle of it and got blow up. I left.

In a 0.1 I found a mining drone and located it with the scanner in the middle of like 10 asteroid belts and blew the crap out of it.

Then I went around some random 0.1-0.3 area and, at the entrance of one of them, found 7-8 wrecked player cruisers. My friend met up with me and we looted about 10 million ISK worth of modules.


The second night, we headed out to a 0.-3 that was kind of close but as soon as we go into the system a guy in a faction Eris killed both of us like immediately.

It was fun finding stuff from a battle but I can't help but feel like there's not going to ever be anyone in null sec that we could actually kill in our t1 frigates and modules with gimped skills. Is FW the only reasonable way to find other newer players like us to PVP?

Also, is Rens just a slow area? It doesn't seem like there is a lot going on over there. Where should we head for Min/Gallente FW action? I think we might take someone up on joining their corp.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-09-23 20:38:20 UTC
Don't listen to the people who nay-say FW.

It has its drawbacks as its mainly focused on cruiser and below warfare. But for pilots who are looking for action, there are fights everywhere and all the time.
Xero Bloodskye
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2014-09-23 20:41:19 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Don't listen to the people who nay-say FW.

It has its drawbacks as its mainly focused on cruiser and below warfare. But for pilots who are looking for action, there are fights everywhere and all the time.


Then I guess that's what we would want to do. Now we just need a corp/faction, which I'm not sure how to pick. Would there be any reason to pick the same race as we are? Are there any advantages or disadvantages for choosing each of the four?

We are in the US, playing on EST during the evenings/night.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2014-09-24 05:06:08 UTC
There are no dis/adv with picking any of the different factions for what you want to do. If you're thinking about staying for the long haul and do some militia fighting as well, you might want to do some research into individual corps/miltias to see where you fit. they all have their own positives and negatives, nothing from in-game, but all player evolved.


Each miltia will give you friends, enemies, frenemies, and the ISK you need to keep PvP'ing. 500mil ISK may seem like a lot to start off with, but when you start getting into 3+ fights a day, (which happens on a daily basis) you'll be losing ships like crazy.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-09-24 06:14:08 UTC
Xero Bloodskye wrote:
We actually have a little ISK, about 500m each due to referring each other and selling the PLEX, so losing a 10m cruiser isn't that big of a deal, but I can see the appeal of using super cheap frigates or destroyers.

If we are all flying frig/dest what types of ships could we kill? Would you just fit standard 125/150/200mm guns and be able to go after a variety of targets?

I have been learning to use the directional scanner to find targets and we could just look for lone ships. We started our own corporation and we just wanted to jump right into doing stuff because we were afraid maybe the two new guys wouldn't be interested in the game if they had to do slow things for a while first as at least one of them is impatient.



The fun thing about pvp, you're going to build this awesome fit (in your head) and you'll be so excited to try it. Then you're going actually undock and start roaming around for pvp. You'll get a fight that you think your awesome fit will easily win...and then you die because that's EvE. Then you rebuild with a different strategy and rinse and repeat. Starting pvp is the most fun because you have the most chances to try something new.


The best thing to do is fly the ships you guys feel comfortable losing a lot of and going out trying to kill whatever you can. Just have fun because there is no real strategy needed at this point.

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Decian Cor
Stronghelm Corporation
Solyaris Chtonium
#33 - 2014-09-27 06:55:16 UTC
1) Tool around in high-sec with RVB

2) Tool around in low-sec with FW corps

3) Jump straight into NPC null sec and fight for your lives

[u]Unfiltered for the masses.[/u]

http://imgur.com/mzSl1Ie

Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#34 - 2014-09-29 13:55:05 UTC
Hey there newcomers! Sounds like you have a brilliant attitude to learning by getting out there and seeing what there is to shoot.

You are already using intel such as the d-scanner and finding things which is fantastic. Every encounter in space is another bit of knowledge added. I remember my first trip into low-sec where my Catalyst seemingly blew up in seconds to a gate-camping Megathron (this is a long time ago), hah!

Some of my favourite times in the game where when I was horribly underskilled and had no idea about what ships were capable of. It makes you just go out with little to lose and engage just about anything. More experienced players often prefer not to take risks on things they are mostly sure will beat them and it's a bit of a shame.

As you note, yes, your Skill Points are behind those of a lot of other players but these are mostly just increased statistics rather than outright I win points. If you have a tight small gang and are working on real tactics you should be able to be competetive anyway. Over time additional SP will only add to what you already have, so keep at it.

One thing to note about skills is that if you stick to one or two kinds of Frigate at first then you are not spreading your skills too thin. There are skills that let you fly bigger ships, and then there are skills which will improve ALL ships, as well as those that improve different weapon types etc. Everything you put in to making your frigates better will apply well to cruisers etc when you decide its time to move up to them. As it happens, and as I am sure you have noted there is plenty of frigate PVP going on in Faction Warfare and elsewhere at the moment. It also happens to be my number 1 favourite type of ship to fly and it never gets old, at least for me. Point is, don't be in a hurry to ship up. Battleships are almost exclusively used in large fleet null sec PVP and Battlecruisers aren't exactly popular at the moment either because the faction cruisers (which recently got a balance pass) are almost as effective without being big fat and slow targets. Changes to warp speeds as well (bigger ships roam slower and in-fact go some way towards slowing down roaming gangs) mean that there is plenty of content for frigate or cruiser combat.

I can't tell you how important it is to get thermodynamics as soon as possible, it's steroids for nearly any active module you put on your ship. It's a huge boost early on.

Resources:

Eve API:
https://community.eveonline.com/support/api-key/

Create an API and use it to plug into the following applications. Why? So that they can read information about your characters and provide you with information to help plan your ships and skill queues.

Eve Fitting Tool (EFT):
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=24359

EFT lets you plan ship fits. You can export or import them to and from the game as well.

Aside from its obvious benefits, for new players there is an invaluable way of seeing which skills you might want to improve in order to get more out of a ship or module. Once you have your API plugged in and your character updated, loading up a fitting and right clicking on the modules will show you what skills apply to that module. Right click on the fittings background and you will see all that apply to the ship itself. Couple that with Eve-mon (see below) and you have an invaluable tool for getting your skill points in place ASAP.

Example of skills applied window (note this is a sabre alt so high 'general' skills but none that are ship specific, but you get the idea) http://puu.sh/bSB0N/a6bf87b41a.png


Eve-mon:
http://evemon.battleclinic.com/

Lets you monitor your characters and play about with skill plans out of game. There is an app for android called Aura that does the same thing. If you take what I said about using EFT to see which skills can be applied to your ship (via right click) you can go about making a skill plan that includes these.

Dotlan:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/

External or in-game browser map in a nice easy to follow format. Coupled with the actial in-game map it is a very useful resource for figuring out where the activity is (good or bad). For example you could find a particularly busy system near you and then it will give a link to a killboard showing further intel on the system. Very handy.

Killboards:
Zkillboard ~ https://zkillboard.com/
eve-kill ~ http://eve-kill.net/?a=search

Both have their merits. Battleclinic has a killboard but I don't recommend you bother using it.

Ship fitting databases:
http://failheap-challenge.com/forumdisplay.php?15-Ship-Setup-Hangar

FHC has a pretty decent series of discussions on various ships. FOTM ships tend to get more attention naturally but even older threads can be insightful. The community there is a little... bittervet to say the least but nonetheless there is some excellent discussions to be found.

uh... that's enough for now im sure. Hopefully this isnt patronising, sounds like you already know some good roaming practices! I'm inclined to write out a resource based on this information to help newcomers in general but that's going to take some time to polish out and make fully readable. for now, I hope this is of some use.

Feel free to ask me anything and welcome to New Eden <3

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)

Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#35 - 2014-09-29 14:03:53 UTC
Hit the word limit above so I'll just throw this bit down here :D

Video resources:

There are absolutely tons of videos out there showcasing solo PVP prowess, linked play and small gang geurilla tactics all giving you an indication of what's possible in eve. A great resource for new players (and for a lot of experienced players too frankly) is the Eve is Easy series from my former corpmates.

In particular, there are a few recent ones by Suitonia which will apply to you specifically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6Sg_0cHcjs - OK, honestly, this one is an hour long so be sure to have time to watch! Having said that, it has some truly invaluable information for newcomers with regards to how to find engagements and how to work a system to generate fights. in short; locking down sytsem PVE activity, being a nuisance and encouraging a fleet to form up for you. Be sure to watch this one some time.

He does have some shorter ones which will be a good primer for what the series offers in general...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjJB6Mortgg - a few engagements
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_MDkHkBe5A - uh, forgot!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbiURZDYMoY - Tormentor

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)

SghnDubh
BattleClinic
#36 - 2014-09-29 17:56:51 UTC
Lady Spank, I really like your info but take strong exception to your recommendation about BattleClinic.

Maybe over evemail, let's talk about where your bias against our KB comes from. Genuinely curious.

We serve over 5 million unique hits per month related just to the KB. Clearly a huge number of players visit us.



BattleClinic killboards: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/index.php

BattleClinic loadouts: Post a loadout, get advice. http://eve.battleclinic.com/browse_loadouts.php

Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#37 - 2014-09-29 20:06:45 UTC
SghnDubh wrote:
strong exception to your recommendation about BattleClinic.

Sorry about that.

I just can't personally recommend the site, mostly because I feel it lacks usability moreso than anything else. The layout is also rather messy and when I am flying about solo trying to gather intel on people chasing me I like things to be kept as simple as possible P

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)

Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#38 - 2014-09-29 20:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
I find battleclinic to be the most informative in a solo scenario. The points system best indicates solo strength or weakness. I don't think it is as good for larger scale assessment.

Remember that the isk ratios are not necessarily good indicators of skill at small scale PvP

Edit: regarding ease of use, the fact that I can copy/paste a name straight into the url is great. Then click losses and you're done.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-09-30 05:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Balshem Rozenzweig
don't have much time to read all the responses sadly but I've seen FW mentioned and this is what I also wanted to recommend.

If you want frigate PVP you could base yourself out of a highsec system near FW zones (you can check dotlan eve maps for graphical representetion of FW regions). Then fit your 4 frigates for pvp and roam around. One of you should be a bait/tackle with the rest coming in and blaping the target. It's called blobing, and is generally frowned upon but everyone does that and it is educational. Esp. since not everyone will just agree to die. All you need is ships, modules, some basic d scan to search FW outposts and you can pew all day long (well - in EU timezone at least :P). If you see your system gate camped a lot - move somewhere else.

The way presented above should allow you to stay in high (should you want) and do some pvp practice (FW space) in ships that should be able to make their way thru some of the weaker gate camps (frigates - esp if one of you is fitted with nanofiber internal structure and does the scouting).

Other than that - join FW corp and let them tutor you. FW can generate tons of isk to spend on ships.

For frigs I would recommend them all (but a bait maybe) to be fitted with Microwarp drive (to move around battlefield fast), one at least to have long range weapons and warp disruptor (for engaging destroyers/cruisers or generally just slow but well tanked targets - he goes in first, orbits the target at ~20 km and waits for others to join the party = win), and one doing some baiting (good tanking skills, well tanked ship - he waits till someone catches him, applies warp scrambler and webifier and waits for the others to come in and join the party = also win but baits do die).

Tbh - 4 people in factional warfare space has unlimited options.

edit-
start focusing your skills now by the way. You will do much better if your primary skills (ship skills and main weapon system) are on 5, and secondary (specializations and support skills for the weapon system) at 4.

First roams (and kills) I had was with 2 guys. Me and an amarr player totally new to the game (accounts maybe 3-4 weeks old?) and a guy with an account that was about 1 year old. It was the most awesome eve time evah. Our corp mates acted like they wanted to masturbate watching cruiser hulls so we had nothing to do but organize our own time. We got into a well fitter slicer, t1 fitter AB tormentor, and a condor (me) with met 3 launchers, and went roaming around, me trying to tackle stuff with lvl 3 navigation skills, and tormentor being a bait. We've learned a lot from our mistakes/successes. We still blob like pros :P

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-09-30 10:54:25 UTC
Xero Bloodskye wrote:
Our experiences so far:

First night, we (two of us) tried flying out to the nearest 0.0 and seeing if we could find anything to shoot. We are based in Rens and we got to a 0.0 in about 10 jumps. We used directional scanners - 360 and flew around and found one small ship. We found it but it was in (we didnt know what it was at the time) a POS with defense turrets. My valiant friend went divebombing into the middle of it and got blow up. I left.

In a 0.1 I found a mining drone and located it with the scanner in the middle of like 10 asteroid belts and blew the crap out of it.

Then I went around some random 0.1-0.3 area and, at the entrance of one of them, found 7-8 wrecked player cruisers. My friend met up with me and we looted about 10 million ISK worth of modules.


The second night, we headed out to a 0.-3 that was kind of close but as soon as we go into the system a guy in a faction Eris killed both of us like immediately.

It was fun finding stuff from a battle but I can't help but feel like there's not going to ever be anyone in null sec that we could actually kill in our t1 frigates and modules with gimped skills. Is FW the only reasonable way to find other newer players like us to PVP?

Also, is Rens just a slow area? It doesn't seem like there is a lot going on over there. Where should we head for Min/Gallente FW action? I think we might take someone up on joining their corp.



Focus in low sec. More likely to find targets for small gangs. Nullbears rarely undock without 50 peopel behind them (and they have the courage to call that a small gang)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

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