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Transport ships too WEAK!
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Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2011-12-12 03:14:09 UTC
Transport ships are -too- weak.

They need more hit points. It doesn't take much to gank one at the moment.
The covert ops transport ship can get 1 shot by tornadoes. Tornado cost; 100mil. So as soon as you transport more than 200mil in a transport ship, you're doomed.

So lets give the transport ship a chance and double/triple their hit point; it's not like they can fight back anyway.

Also, +2 warp strength is an underwhelming bonus. The slow transport ship should get the Interdiction Nullifier (that bonus that lets a ship ignore warp bubble) to make it worth the cost.
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-12-12 04:10:10 UTC
Blockade runners can travel cloaked - they dont need more tank - hell they really dont even need a tank since they can move just as fast as a frigate with a cargohold.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
bartos100
Living Ghost
#3 - 2011-12-12 08:51:07 UTC
the point of the covert transports is that you don't give the ganker the chanse to scan you

as i have never flown the other transport ships i can't talk about those

but i know that it is very hard for someone to catch my crane the only time i might get in trouble is in 0.0 with a bubble

and even then they still have to decloak me before i can burn out of the bubble :)
Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2011-12-12 09:27:29 UTC
Tahna Rouspel wrote:

The covert ops transport ship can get 1 shot by tornadoes. Tornado cost; 100mil. So as soon as you transport more than 200mil in a transport ship, you're doomed.


Don't get caught transporting 200mil+ worth of stuff then, or you might discover that I can actually kill you with two destroyers, and that would make you even more sad.

Alternatively, stop autopiloting with expensive stuff in your hold and no shield extenders, you tardcake. You've just been given the ability to autopilot dock at your destination station, and you are still dying? You are bad at this.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2011-12-12 09:33:25 UTC
Tahna Rouspel wrote:
Transport ships are -too- weak.

They need more hit points. It doesn't take much to gank one at the moment.
The covert ops transport ship can get 1 shot by tornadoes. Tornado cost; 100mil. So as soon as you transport more than 200mil in a transport ship, you're doomed.


I like how things have reached the point in Empire where you have to use blockade runners to move your stuff, yet you still won't consider living in nullsec.
Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2011-12-12 09:49:30 UTC
Jafit McJafitson wrote:

I like how things have reached the point in Empire where you have to use blockade runners to move your stuff, yet you still won't consider living in nullsec.


You know what the funny part is?

If he used a normal industrial, people would be less likely to scan him and see if he has interesting **** aboard.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#7 - 2011-12-12 10:04:55 UTC
Sir Substance wrote:
Jafit McJafitson wrote:

I like how things have reached the point in Empire where you have to use blockade runners to move your stuff, yet you still won't consider living in nullsec.


You know what the funny part is?

If he used a normal industrial, people would be less likely to scan him and see if he has interesting **** aboard.



If he had been using a normal industrial he might got killed without being scanned. Some ganking parties just kill empty transports. most likely because they haven't scanned.

Concerning Transports:
The Defense of the cloaking Indu is its cloaking (isn't too obvious, right)
A well fittet deep space Transport should be able to hold off more than one BC trying to gank it. They can be pushed up to 120k - 150k EHP and if your stuff is that precious think again about the M in MMO.
Multiplayer is the one i'm looking for not the massively ;-)
Get your self a buddy to escort your DS-Transport with an appropriate logistic ship and you can tank a hell of DPS coming in. Still looking for a gang trying to fry an armortanked occator with 1 or 2 logistics on its tails. That might become a long list of victims ;-)
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#8 - 2011-12-12 10:44:18 UTC
could a tornado sebo'd the hell out even instalock a ninjya hauler solo?

hit an instalocker gang setup run right you are screwd no matter what. Kind of moot point in this case. Probaly be the 2-3 cruisers or dessies who will the be killer of you since they'd 'be first dibs for dps on you with the more insta instalock.
Artreju Woodsparrow
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-12-12 10:57:43 UTC
But only +2 Warpstrength is to low for the 2nd Transporter which cant Cloak. maybe change the Bonus in +1 per Skill

greetings
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-12-12 11:08:20 UTC
+1 for the interdiction nullfier on non-cloaky transport ship, its a really good idea that allows it to be the deep space hauler it was supposed to be.
Hiryu Jin
noXCorp
#11 - 2011-12-12 11:43:11 UTC
how about haulers get +1 to god mode and pvp is restricted to only 'battle zones'!!! After that patch, we'll work on getting the unicorns introduced, in a way that won't clash with the hello kitty theme.
Cap Tyrian
Guiding Hand Social Club
#12 - 2011-12-12 11:44:19 UTC
Blockade Runner are fast and cloaky. Deep Space Transporters are hard to kill.

If you're to scared, use an orcas corp-hangar. All Problems Solved.

Gankers just got Nerf anyways with the insurance payout and grinding back sec is a pain, so don't worry about flying 200m cheap ass stuff around, we don't bother with peanuts.
Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2011-12-12 12:01:17 UTC
Chanina wrote:

Some ganking parties just kill empty transports. most likely because they haven't scanned.

Bad or bored ones maybe.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2011-12-12 12:44:27 UTC
Worth mentioning a note;

-I live in nullsec/wormholes
-I don't have the transport skills yet

I made the thread because Poetic Stanzel lost his cloakie hauler in 1 hit while aligning out of a station in highsec. 1 hit.
What's the fun in a game where you have no chance of responding to an action? Doubling or tripling the hit point of transport ships will give the player the ability to respond - move, dock up, warp away, cloak up, escape. Only carrying less than 200mil in goods is not a reasonable option. 200 mil is nothing! If anyone has done industry, then you'll know that material are small and expensive.

Is it so wrong for a transport ship to have survivability? Are you all so stocked up about what the game is that you're unwilling to see it change?

Lets be honest, ganking a transport ship is easy. There's no challenge.
So lets make it harder!
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#15 - 2011-12-12 12:46:18 UTC
Misanthra wrote:
could a tornado sebo'd the hell out even instalock a ninjya hauler solo?

hit an instalocker gang setup run right you are screwd no matter what. Kind of moot point in this case. Probaly be the 2-3 cruisers or dessies who will the be killer of you since they'd 'be first dibs for dps on you with the more insta instalock.



Good point. But a good organized gang should always be able to make a successful gank. I'm an industrial and most likely a victim of ganking instead of a shooter. Further more a gang can be spotted by a scout. Delivering expensive Modules or bpcs or what ever can still be transported in different ships, smaller batches or with a heavy escort. In any case, there is no risk free version and if your scouts report a heavily camped gate you should consider take another route or just dock and wait or split things up.

You should always consider following rules of thumb:
don't carry more value than needed to gank you.
Fly never bpcs or bpos in a T1 industrial. Use a T2 version, Ceptor or even BC, BS or Commandship if it is necessary.
If you don't feel safe, you aren't. if you feel safe, you most likely mistaken. ;-)
Always ask a friend or tow to help you if you feel unsafe.

Cheer up, they only scan your ship and don't know which imps you carry in your head. they might kill you just for them ;-)

Sir Substance wrote:
Bad or bored ones maybe.


Yes, bored ones most likely. And before the patch i must admit.
Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-12-12 13:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Substance
Tahna Rouspel wrote:

Is it so wrong for a transport ship to have survivability? Are you all so stocked up about what the game is that you're unwilling to see it change?

Lets be honest, ganking a transport ship is easy. There's no challenge.
So lets make it harder!


Ganking a transport ship is indeed easy. The hard part is finding one valuable enough to be worth the ships. Remember that drops are not guaranteed.

OP has a logical fallacy. 200mil would indeed be enough to be worth a gank, if you could be sure everything dropped, which you cant.

Historically, pick two:

hard to kill
good carrying capacity
cheap

That's how it works with transports of any kind.

Industrials are cheap and have good carrying capacity. Deep space transports and freighters are hard to kill and have good carrying capacity. Any cruiser is cheap and hard to kill.

You want all three? You are asking too much. Think about what you are complaining about. In order to get you, someone has to rustle up 100mil in captial, find you when you are carrying at least 200mil if he feels really lucky, more like 400-600, and then gamble that he gets good drop.

To kill a ship hull worth 1mil. Its contents is your problem, not a game balance issue.

In addition, you have recently gotten insurance payouts removed, which they should have been, but it's still a point in your favor, and you got autopilot docking you at stations instead of leaving you vulnerable on gates.

What more do you want?

No, its not a resistance to change, you are a short-sighted self-pitying narcissist, so lacking in contextual knowledge of the game you are asking to change that you cant or wont see glaring logical fallacies and balance issues in your own proposal, even when they walk right up to you and put their cigars out on your eyeballs.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#17 - 2011-12-12 13:14:06 UTC
Tahna Rouspel wrote:
I made the thread because Poetic Stanzel lost his cloakie hauler in 1 hit while aligning out of a station in highsec. 1 hit.
His mistake is not reason enough to create a thread.

Transports — both DSTs and blockade runners — have all the survivability features they need.
Quote:
What's the fun in a game where you have no chance of responding to an action?
The reason he didn't have a chance is because he made a mistake. He lost his chance long before the event even happened, and no amount of boosts will ever “fix” that non-issue.
Quote:
Is it so wrong for a transport ship to have survivability?
Seeing as how they already have insanely good survivability, yes, it's wrong, because it means you don't understand the actual problem.
Quote:
Lets be honest, ganking a transport ship is easy.
Let's be honest: no, it's not, unless the pilot makes it easy. His failure is not something the game needs to fix.
Dutarro
Ghezer Aramih
#18 - 2011-12-12 13:20:48 UTC
There's always the option of carrying your cargo in a combat ship. Megathron or Apocalpyse starts with a hold of 675 m3, so with expanders and/or cargo rigs it could get up to 1000 m3 or more; that's small compared to a real hauler, but suicide ganking a battleship should be rather difficult.
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2011-12-12 15:06:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tahna Rouspel wrote:
I made the thread because Poetic Stanzel lost his cloakie hauler in 1 hit while aligning out of a station in highsec. 1 hit.
His mistake is not reason enough to create a thread.

Transports — both DSTs and blockade runners — have all the survivability features they need.
Quote:
What's the fun in a game where you have no chance of responding to an action?
The reason he didn't have a chance is because he made a mistake. He lost his chance long before the event even happened, and no amount of boosts will ever “fix” that non-issue.
Quote:
Is it so wrong for a transport ship to have survivability?
Seeing as how they already have insanely good survivability, yes, it's wrong, because it means you don't understand the actual problem.
Quote:
Lets be honest, ganking a transport ship is easy.
Let's be honest: no, it's not, unless the pilot makes it easy. His failure is not something the game needs to fix.


His only 'mistake' was not warping to an auto-warp off location.

Keep this in mind;
- He was in high sec in a random system
- He was picking up a courier contract
- He was flying one of the expensive transport ship

The problem is;
-It's not a simple task to get auto-warp off bookmarks for every location in highsec/lowsec/null - there are thousands of them and courier contract can take you just about anywhere.
-Cov ops Transport is agile and quick. It's survivability is through its ability to get out of situation fast, but obviously the Tornado was faster and locking and shooting. It seems a bit unfair considering the align time for a transport ship is 5 seconds.
-Being a random system in highsec, you don't expect it.

Let me repeat this though to make it clear; the isk limit for ganking a transport ship is -too- low now. The point of raising the hit point of transport ship is to raise that isk limit in highsec. The reason why I said 200mil, is because that's the current breakpoint; a tornado fit is around 100mil. If you find a transport ship with 200mil worth, then it will on average drop half of that. 200 mil is too small an amount.
Raising the hit point of transport ships does not make them invincible. If you catch one, it's still going to die, it will just take a little longer.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#20 - 2011-12-12 15:20:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tahna Rouspel wrote:
His only 'mistake' was not warping to an auto-warp off location.
No. He was also
· Not fitting a tank.
· Not using his cloak.
· Not using his superior speed and agility.
Quote:
Keep this in mind;
- He was in high sec in a random system
- He was picking up a courier contract
- He was flying one of the expensive transport ship
…all of which leads to a big "so?"
Quote:
The problem is;
-It's not a simple task to get auto-warp off bookmarks for every location in highsec/lowsec/null - there are thousands of them and courier contract can take you just about anywhere.
…so be more discriminate about where you pick them up and if you do it at a new station, create an insta — the speed and agility of a BR will let you do this very quickly.
Quote:
-Cov ops Transport is agile and quick. It's survivability is through its ability to get out of situation fast, but obviously the Tornado was faster and locking and shooting. It seems a bit unfair considering the align time for a transport ship is 5 seconds.
It should be a fair bit lower than that, and even so, it's trivially easy to put enough tank on a BR to make it safe from random single (or even dual-)ship ganks. So no, it's not particularly unfair that a well-prepared ship can beat a ship that isn't prepared and which fails to use any of its inherent advantages.
Quote:
Let me repeat this though to make it clear; the isk limit for ganking a transport ship is -too- low now.
Not really, no, unless the pilot chooses to make it low. It's a user error — not something the game needs to compensate for. And no, increasing the HP on the ships will not make them live longer. Ganks don't work that way. Oh, and the ISK limit was just drastically increased, so you already got what you're asking for…
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