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Dev blog: Lighting the invention bulb

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Princess Mary-I
Angels of Ptah
#241 - 2014-09-22 22:03:27 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skills will not affect ME. Because the moment you have ME being affected, the skill becomes one required at 5. Like Production Efficiency was. CCP have stated in another thread that they do not want skills to be like that.


If I get u right, then CCP don't think there should be a skill required to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits" and to be mandatory to get to lvl 5, and they have stated so in a thread.

That makes no sense to me, reading that, cause was that not the reason behind the refining change? U would need all reprocessing skills to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits", and therefor becomming a mandatory skill, and if I remember right, that was in a dev blog too. Yes yes I know no none refine anymore :D but that is not the point.

So maybe you can help me out here - do they want skills to be mandatory to get to lvl 5 or do they not want skills to mandatory to get to lvl 5?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#242 - 2014-09-22 22:19:06 UTC
Princess Mary-I wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skills will not affect ME. Because the moment you have ME being affected, the skill becomes one required at 5. Like Production Efficiency was. CCP have stated in another thread that they do not want skills to be like that.


If I get u right, then CCP don't think there should be a skill required to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits" and to be mandatory to get to lvl 5, and they have stated so in a thread.

That makes no sense to me, reading that, cause was that not the reason behind the refining change? U would need all reprocessing skills to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits", and therefor becomming a mandatory skill, and if I remember right, that was in a dev blog too. Yes yes I know no none refine anymore :D but that is not the point.

So maybe you can help me out here - do they want skills to be mandatory to get to lvl 5 or do they not want skills to mandatory to get to lvl 5?


There's a huge difference.

With refining skills, you make /less/ isk. You can still sell for profit.

With a skill that reduces manufacturing costs, you can easily reach the point where, without it, you cannot make /any/ profit without it at 5.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#243 - 2014-09-22 22:38:51 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Princess Mary-I wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skills will not affect ME. Because the moment you have ME being affected, the skill becomes one required at 5. Like Production Efficiency was. CCP have stated in another thread that they do not want skills to be like that.


If I get u right, then CCP don't think there should be a skill required to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits" and to be mandatory to get to lvl 5, and they have stated so in a thread.

That makes no sense to me, reading that, cause was that not the reason behind the refining change? U would need all reprocessing skills to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits", and therefor becomming a mandatory skill, and if I remember right, that was in a dev blog too. Yes yes I know no none refine anymore :D but that is not the point.

So maybe you can help me out here - do they want skills to be mandatory to get to lvl 5 or do they not want skills to mandatory to get to lvl 5?


There's a huge difference.

With refining skills, you make /less/ isk. You can still sell for profit.

With a skill that reduces manufacturing costs, you can easily reach the point where, without it, you cannot make /any/ profit without it at 5.


Can you both elaborate? I can not follow the refining / producing connection to skill lvl, are there not many more factors at work to talk those things?

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#244 - 2014-09-23 11:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
A big part of these changes I think have to tie in to big changes in Data Site exploration - and these should be answered. I think that would fall under "Team Space Glitter" - CCP Affinity and CCP Bayesian have done the most recent adjustments to Relic and Data Sites. They've already said that Exploration sites need a much bigger pass - maybe this is an opportunity to tie it in? Edit: I found this thread, where some improvements to the hacking mechanic were discussed - sounds interesting!


  • If the Data Interfaces are going to be removed, and the items refunded, this means all of the BPCs of them, the building components (e.g. Electric Conduit, Force Cable) should all be refunded at some kind of fair rate as well. These weren't exactly the most popular items to get from Data sites, as they were very bulky, and low ISK value on their own.

  • What will be replacing these items in the Data sites as loot? The rebalance to the Datacore usage might help a bit, but Data sites are typically worth a lot less than Relic sites. A lot of this is due to the size of the Decryptors and Datacores. If you are going to reduce the size of these items, that would certainly help a bit, but they still need a bit more help.

  • A lot of the special run BPCs in Data sites are almost worthless- they almost all build at a loss, even with ME10. This might be due to the changes in Crius, or just some modules not being very popular. The Target Spectrum Breaker, Reactive Armor Hardener, Large Micro Jump Drive, and Medium Micro Jump Drive are all examples of this. Some of the Anciliary Armor/Shield BPCs can be worth building - just depends on market timing to sell them. Since Crius however, a lot of the prices have plummeted. The rarer T2 and Faction BPCs can sometimes be worth it, but you still get a lot of random Large/Capital BPCs which are not worth building.

  • Is there any thoughts on moving the sources for Datacores around again, or are you happy with how Faction Warfare LP stores have been used to acquire them? For reference, here is a dev blog article from 2012 when Datacores were added to the LP stores to discourage the use of Research Agents for Datacore Farming.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#245 - 2014-09-23 12:40:30 UTC
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Princess Mary-I wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skills will not affect ME. Because the moment you have ME being affected, the skill becomes one required at 5. Like Production Efficiency was. CCP have stated in another thread that they do not want skills to be like that.


If I get u right, then CCP don't think there should be a skill required to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits" and to be mandatory to get to lvl 5, and they have stated so in a thread.

That makes no sense to me, reading that, cause was that not the reason behind the refining change? U would need all reprocessing skills to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits", and therefor becomming a mandatory skill, and if I remember right, that was in a dev blog too. Yes yes I know no none refine anymore :D but that is not the point.

So maybe you can help me out here - do they want skills to be mandatory to get to lvl 5 or do they not want skills to mandatory to get to lvl 5?


There's a huge difference.

With refining skills, you make /less/ isk. You can still sell for profit.

With a skill that reduces manufacturing costs, you can easily reach the point where, without it, you cannot make /any/ profit without it at 5.


Can you both elaborate? I can not follow the refining / producing connection to skill lvl, are there not many more factors at work to talk those things?



I have less than Max refining skills: I refine something, and sell it on the market. I make isk.

I have less than max skills in something that reduces manufacturing material costs: I make something. I cannot sell it for profit, because someone who has been around longer, and has it maxed out, has set the market value at just enough for them to make a profit, but where it's below the level I can make it at.

That's what happened with the old Production Efficiency skill. you pretty much had to have it at 5, or you couldn't compete.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Princess Mary-I
Angels of Ptah
#246 - 2014-09-23 16:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Mary-I
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Princess Mary-I wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skills will not affect ME. Because the moment you have ME being affected, the skill becomes one required at 5. Like Production Efficiency was. CCP have stated in another thread that they do not want skills to be like that.


If I get u right, then CCP don't think there should be a skill required to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits" and to be mandatory to get to lvl 5, and they have stated so in a thread.

That makes no sense to me, reading that, cause was that not the reason behind the refining change? U would need all reprocessing skills to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits", and therefor becomming a mandatory skill, and if I remember right, that was in a dev blog too. Yes yes I know no none refine anymore :D but that is not the point.

So maybe you can help me out here - do they want skills to be mandatory to get to lvl 5 or do they not want skills to mandatory to get to lvl 5?


There's a huge difference.

With refining skills, you make /less/ isk. You can still sell for profit.

With a skill that reduces manufacturing costs, you can easily reach the point where, without it, you cannot make /any/ profit without it at 5.


Can you both elaborate? I can not follow the refining / producing connection to skill lvl, are there not many more factors at work to talk those things?


Yes there are more things to consider than just skills.

And I do agree with Steve that you needed to get the old ME to lvl 5 to compete (at least if selling in trade hubs) - However I don't see that as a problem, rater I see it in perfect line with what CCP stated in the reprocessing blog.

From the dev blog "Perfect refine reduces the incentive to train most reprocessing skills, since it’s possible to get to the cap without maximizing them all. As an indirect consequence, it discourages players specializing in this particular activity"

and further Down in same blog "This is intended as we now are pushing for all skills to be maxed out by players wanting to specialize in reprocessing in order to get the most of it"

I read that as CCP wants us to specialize in the fields we are doing, and that you should need skills to lvl 5, and if you can settle for a lower skill level, it will kill your reason to train that skill and specialize. Yes we get a TE bonus to specialize in a field now, but as other has pointed out that bonus is rather useless, and therefor would, as CCP calls it - discourage players to specialize in (that) paticular activity.

So why don't CCP want ppl to strive for perfection in Building and invention?

That is why I found it confussing and contradicting what the purpose with skills should be.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#247 - 2014-09-23 19:44:28 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Then remove data cores from exploration, since most exploration ships have small holds.


or reduce volume from 1m3 to 0,1m3.


More like .0000000001m3. Why are data cores so huge? Even irl today, one cubic meter can store an insane amount of data. What are people in New Eden doing? Burning text onto armor plates with welding torches?

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#248 - 2014-09-23 23:14:56 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Removing data cores from exploration would free up more cargo capacity for interface components, right? Then there's just that minor issue of the sheer volume of those components: 36 Positron Cords contribute to making a device. Each cord is 1m3 and the device itself is 1m3. Even if the data interface was 10m3, the components that go into it don't need to be bigger than 0.1m3.

Datacores are already available through FW, so there's really no reason to also have them available through exploration. Making data cores bulky increases the hauling work required to pick them up from agents and deliver them to market. Their 1m3 size is just fine.

I'd really like CCP to reconsider the removal of data interfaces. Convert them to consumables to support Exploration. I end up leaving behind most of the components at present since they just aren't worth the hassle of picking up.


In general I agree with Mara. The removal of interfaces from invention and RE is not only pointless from a gameplay standpoint, but it will also negatively impact exploration, as well as removing the ability to choose race in Reverse Engineering. Retain them and make them consumed per run and you will boost exploration. Adjust volumes.


Needless Complexity and the Merging of Invention and Reverse Engineering
The fact that interfaces behave differently in the code is utterly irrelevant and completely invisible to the inventor. We don't see that. All we see is x of item A is required to produce y of item B. But then we get all x of item A back. That is the counter-intuitive part. Make interfaces consumed per job.

I'm okay with making Invention and Reverse Engineering behave in an identical way. This makes sense and gets rid of needless complexity. But one of the stated goals is to remove the randomness from Reverse Engineering. Then you reintroduce randomness right back in with "granular" outcomes. Bad idea.


Granularity in Results
I really couldn't care less about getting an average of 1/3 of 50% of my datacores back when datacores cost about 100k isk. The bonus ME on exceptionally good results is meaningful. But the entire concept of granularity in results is only adding more needless complexity just for the sake of complexity. I suggest you scrap it. It is counter to your stated goals.


INTERFACES
Interfaces have been a problem child for years. But rather than being sent to the funny farm, they just need some love.

Continue to use interfaces to determine the race of the hull or subsystem BPCs. They provide a vital function in Reverse Engineering by allowing the player to choose hull/subsystem racial type.

Next, you have to decrease the volume of the required materials to something much smaller. An Esoteric Ship Data Interface requires 378 units of materials (340/.9), each one of which requires one meter per unit. The item itself has a volume of 1m3 packaged. I don't think we'll have to worry about compression issues. But please make the required materials smaller, like .1m3.

While you're at it, please make datacores smaller as well. This isn't the stone age. We aren't writing down the collected knowledge of our race on stone tablets or even magnetic tape.

RE SKILLS
Why is plasma physics required for hulls? This makes no sense at all. Change this to require the relevant racial type for the matching racial hull. So if you want to get a hull BPC, you need [racial] Starship Engineering, and Mechanical Engineering. Also, why are these skills so low? Its T3. These shouldn't be level 1 requirements.


RE MATERIALS
For subsystems, continue to use the interface to determine race, the relic to determine type, and use the second non-subsystem datacore to determine which subsystem will be created. Each race currently has 4 subsystems per category. You could choose to use the same datacore set across each race. But that would look weird when you're using a laser-related datacore for a Tengu or a missile-related datacore for a Proteus. I'll come up with a suggested list later.


TEAMS
Oh, boy! Oh, boy! Oh, boy! I'll rush right out and bid on that team that gives me 3% ME reduction on all 3 datacores. Roll Unless that team gives me an ME reduction on all the datacores used for an entire stack of runs at once, it will be utterly pointless.

Like others have said, reducing the time required per invention/RE job doesn't change when I get online to throw in another batch. This will mostly help those using bots to run invention jobs 24/7. However, if it reduces the time required on an entire stack of runs by a significant amount (I consider 10-20% to be significant for this) then it will be useful.

If teams give bonuses like reduced ME/TE on the resultant BPCs, then that would also be useful and meaningful.


INVENTION/RE SKILLS
Currently, the difference between level 4 and 5 skills for invention is pretty pointless. The benefit of an additional 1% is far too weak. If you make the spread between level 1 and level 5 actually meaningful, I might be willing to train them to 5. This also applies to RE since you have stated that RE success formula will become the same as Invention.


Ship Invention Skills
IMO Disruption ships should require Electromagnetic Engineering, and Exploration ships Electronics. EWAR uses high-power electromagnetic devices, while an advanced microscope or centrifuge is more of an electromechanical device. I won't cry if you choose not to do this. It's purely fluff.


As always, I greatly appreciate the work being done as well as the opportunity to give my input. I'm looking forward to testing this stuff out on sisi.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Kaydar ArX
Sisters of EVE - Origins
The Initiative.
#249 - 2014-09-24 08:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaydar ArX
Steve Ronuken wrote:



I have less than Max refining skills: I refine something, and sell it on the market. I make isk.

I have less than max skills in something that reduces manufacturing material costs: I make something. I cannot sell it for profit, because someone who has been around longer, and has it maxed out, has set the market value at just enough for them to make a profit, but where it's below the level I can make it at.

That's what happened with the old Production Efficiency skill. you pretty much had to have it at 5, or you couldn't compete.


Let's take another example using the proposed changes about datacores refunds.
player A with low invention skills
player B with max invention skills

Both of them restock their components at Jita and invent some 2ME/4TE T2 bpcs so their manufacture costs are exactly the same. (and they build at the same station with no team)

Player A invention costs over larges invention batches can be averaged at 1m isk per T2 Bpc (10 runs)
Player B with max skills get a few more datacores back when inventing so in average he's inventing the same 10runs T2 bpc for 800k isk. That's 20k isk saved per T2 item. (read CCP Ytterbitium on page 3 about granular outcome of invention working that way)

So if player B decides to, he can list those manufactured items on the market for a lower price than player A manufacture+invention costs, thus no profit could be done by player A.

Is that ok in this case?

tl,dr: CCP is removing the skill related to saving materials during manufacturing then add a system that does the exact same thing during invention. Pretty confusing...


Note that I'm not against those changes to invention! I like my skills to be relevant for profit making.
But so far, the proposed changes are either dull (converting prerequisite skill to a TE bonus...) or quite contradictory to the big scheme of CCP about Industry (easing the access to industry and guaranteeing profit)
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#250 - 2014-09-24 16:04:57 UTC
I believe that I already commented on how I thought that this was useless since players can pick and choose what data cores that they research so even if one gets used more than all others it's not a problem since more people can just start research on that type. The market will even everything out has is the capitalist motto that eve marches to.

I just posted in the dev thread in the Science and Industry section of the forums about how info on invention is currently broken and if you want to show a newbie how to do invention you basically have to use out of game resources now. If you go ahead with these changes you will make all of those out of game resources out of date and invalid to further break the instruction and learning process.

Here is the thread if you are curious on how info tabs are broken:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5048123#post5048123

This has "bad idea" all over it. It seems like changes that are changes for the sack of changing so that you can say you changed something. It seems to add nothing to game play and does not really simplify any process. It just balances data core usage which I have already pointed out does nothing for the game other than force everyone to reexamine what they have their agents researching. Oh and another market adjustment that will need to settle out.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Jeann Valjean
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2014-09-24 18:00:33 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
... seems like changes for the sack of changing... [and] adds nothing to game play and does not really simplify any process


This.
BraiZure Harloon
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#252 - 2014-09-25 19:51:10 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Princess Mary-I wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skills will not affect ME. Because the moment you have ME being affected, the skill becomes one required at 5. Like Production Efficiency was. CCP have stated in another thread that they do not want skills to be like that.


If I get u right, then CCP don't think there should be a skill required to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits" and to be mandatory to get to lvl 5, and they have stated so in a thread.

That makes no sense to me, reading that, cause was that not the reason behind the refining change? U would need all reprocessing skills to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits", and therefor becomming a mandatory skill, and if I remember right, that was in a dev blog too. Yes yes I know no none refine anymore :D but that is not the point.

So maybe you can help me out here - do they want skills to be mandatory to get to lvl 5 or do they not want skills to mandatory to get to lvl 5?


There's a huge difference.

With refining skills, you make /less/ isk. You can still sell for profit.

With a skill that reduces manufacturing costs, you can easily reach the point where, without it, you cannot make /any/ profit without it at 5.


I beg to differ. Today several ore processing skills at lvl2 without an implant make no profit off buying ore and reprocessing it. You either need a pos or implant or max skills or all of the above to compete, and this is twice the ranks needed before the change.
Veldspar lvl 2 16% loss
Scordite lvl 2 17% loss
Omber lvl 2 11% loss
Gneiss lvl 2 4% loss
Dark Ochre lvl 2 9% loss
Hemorphite lvl 2 15% loss
Arkonor lvl 2 13% loss

That "huge difference" you speak of doesn't seem to be there from my point of view.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#253 - 2014-09-26 02:24:18 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Princess Mary-I wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skills will not affect ME. Because the moment you have ME being affected, the skill becomes one required at 5. Like Production Efficiency was. CCP have stated in another thread that they do not want skills to be like that.


If I get u right, then CCP don't think there should be a skill required to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits" and to be mandatory to get to lvl 5, and they have stated so in a thread.

That makes no sense to me, reading that, cause was that not the reason behind the refining change? U would need all reprocessing skills to lvl 5 to reap the "benefits", and therefor becomming a mandatory skill, and if I remember right, that was in a dev blog too. Yes yes I know no none refine anymore :D but that is not the point.

So maybe you can help me out here - do they want skills to be mandatory to get to lvl 5 or do they not want skills to mandatory to get to lvl 5?


There's a huge difference.

With refining skills, you make /less/ isk. You can still sell for profit.

With a skill that reduces manufacturing costs, you can easily reach the point where, without it, you cannot make /any/ profit without it at 5.


Can you both elaborate? I can not follow the refining / producing connection to skill lvl, are there not many more factors at work to talk those things?



I have less than Max refining skills: I refine something, and sell it on the market. I make isk.

I have less than max skills in something that reduces manufacturing material costs: I make something. I cannot sell it for profit, because someone who has been around longer, and has it maxed out, has set the market value at just enough for them to make a profit, but where it's below the level I can make it at.

That's what happened with the old Production Efficiency skill. you pretty much had to have it at 5, or you couldn't compete.



You are talking out 2 sides of your mouth

If you refine, you sell and make isk - You of all people should know it is reprocessing now BTW

If you build and sell, you have to make a profit?? you can still make isk

Don't get caught up in the if I mine it, then it is free



Why is advanced industry still a pre req for cap ship const??
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#254 - 2014-09-26 13:15:25 UTC
Multipart post incoming:

After replying to the "no materials reduction via skills ever" scream a while ago I continued to think about adding very small boni to production efficiency (material vise). The fear that having skills impact material efficiency would lead to them becoming "lvl 5 or gtfo" expressed by Steve is imho only really valid for T1 production, where the market is tight enough to reduce margins down enough, so that they can be effectively killed by screwing with deviations of a few percent or less.

BUT on the "high tech" sector (T2, T3 and roughly everything that requires more skills than Industry 1) there is still space for improvements. If you take a look at the skills needed for the production of a blueprint and their respective benefits (outside of simply being prereqs for the production task) the high tech sector is in a damn poor shape.
As an example lets assume we want to make some Hawks. For manufacturing the required skills are as follows:
Industry 5
Frigate Construction 5
Mechanical Engineering 1
Caldari Starship Engineering 1
Of those skills the only one giving any benefits is the generic Industry skill, granting us 20% reduced build time (wohooo, but damn, we need it at lvl 5 anyway for the jobs).
Compared to invention, there is very little (read: none) motivation to train any skill higher than the bare minimum required to do the manufacturing job (disclaimer: when doing the invention yourself, you might wanna get those "utility" skills as high as justifiable to reap better invention chances. But right now we're only looking at manufacturing!).

My proposal is to add a very tiny material efficiency bonus to every science and production skill (other than the Industry skill itself) that is required in manufacturing. The initial numbers could be 0.1ME per level for science skills and 0.2ME per level for production skills.

The following overview is a breakdown of currently available blueprints and the science and production skills (minus Industry) involved (again broken down in their individual counts for every possible level):

Total blueprints: 3180
Buildable blueprints: 2791
Blueprints with 0 skills required: 1509
Blueprints with 1 skills required: 339
Blueprints with 2 skills required: 772
Blueprints with 3 skills required: 90
Blueprints with 4 skills required: 81
Blueprints with 5 skills required: 0
Average number of skills required: 0.46

Amarr Encryption Methods : 9 3 4 3 5
Amarrian Starship Engineering : 16 3 0 23 1
Battleship Construction : 1 0 0 8 0
Caldari Encryption Methods : 7 2 4 7 2
Caldari Starship Engineering : 16 3 0 23 1
Capital Ship Construction : 98 0 17 10 4
Cruiser Construction : 4 0 0 96 16
Defensive Subsystem Technology : 16 0 0 0 0
Drug Manufacturing : 16 0 8 0 8
Electromagnetic Physics : 122 16 8 45 0
Electronic Engineering : 155 15 58 53 0
Electronic Subsystem Technology : 16 0 0 0 0
Engineering Subsystem Technology : 16 0 0 0 0
Frigate Construction : 0 8 4 8 13
Gallente Encryption Methods : 5 6 3 6 3
Gallentean Starship Engineering : 20 3 0 23 1
Graviton Physics : 22 5 9 23 0
High Energy Physics : 89 5 7 18 0
Hydromagnetic Physics : 88 1 6 25 0
Industrial Construction : 4 0 4 0 0
Laser Physics : 59 10 21 12 0
Mechanical Engineering : 215 29 24 58 0
Minmatar Encryption Methods : 7 2 3 2 3
Minmatar Starship Engineering : 16 3 0 23 1
Molecular Engineering : 42 11 5 13 0
Nanite Engineering : 84 6 0 18 0
Nuclear Physics : 45 4 7 12 0
Offensive Subsystem Technology : 16 0 0 0 0
Outpost Construction : 4 0 0 0 0
Plasma Physics : 25 3 5 21 0
Propulsion Subsystem Technology : 16 0 0 0 0
Quantum Physics : 95 3 3 15 0
Rocket Science : 80 8 6 9 0
Sleeper Technology : 4 10 4 6 1
Takmahl Technology : 3 6 5 3 4
Talocan Technology : 3 7 3 5 2
Yan Jung Technology : 3 7 5 2 3

Continue below
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#255 - 2014-09-26 13:17:02 UTC
Part 2/2:

The blueprints listed as "0 skills required" are those that rely solely on the Industry skill.
The ones with 1 skill required outside of Industry are mainly (super)capitals, storyline items and special stuff such data interfaces etc...
The bulk of T2 production goes into the "2 skills" section, always relying on 2 science skills in the case of modules, and the additional production skill for T2 ships, moving them into the "3 skills" department.
The most skill intensive blueprints are those for T3 production, representing the top with 4 required skills (again, not counting the Industry skill).
Looking at the requirements distribution for individual skills, you can see that many skills are in the situation, that most times they are only required at a rather low level, therefore not justifying a level-up.

Taking up the example above, we would look at a maximum ME bonus of 2 (1ME for the Frigate Construction skill and 2 * 0.5 for the 2 science skills), with an initial ME bonus of 1.1 (using the minimum skill levels required to actually build the damn thing). So the possible advantage of an all 5 toon over the minimalistic skillpoint saver would only be 0.9ME which I think is small enough in this case to not be game breaking and high enough for the dedicated producer to put training time to good use. What I am still not really happy about are those cases with already mandatory level 5 skills (the Hawk again...). Imho some level 5 skills for manufacturing purposes should be lowered to 4 (and most lvl 4 down to 3) to provide a little more spread in the achievable range of material efficiency. Take for example T3 subsystems: They require a bunch of lvl4 and 5 skills with only the respective subsystem engineering skill at level 1. So this means a ME bonus deviation between 0.8+0.4+0.4+0.1=1.7ME and 1+0.5+0.5+0.5=2.5ME, which for the high number of 4 involved skills is kinda low.

Do you think this is something worth poking CCP with or would it in your opinion create too much difference between "skilled" and "unskilled" producers?
zendeejay
Coldon Enterprises
Axion Bionics
#256 - 2014-09-28 10:50:17 UTC
I have noticed while looking at the module list that there are some modules which have changed race, does anyone have any information on whether and how this will impact upon the materials required to build their T2 variants
Ginger Barbarella
#257 - 2014-09-28 23:45:11 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Am I understanding right that the manufacture of T2 items may require different skills after the update?

... So the invention alt that I trained to make a specific item might no longer be able to make that item? Straight


According to CCPs own chart, different items are going to require different datacores (and training up those Science skills for better success chance), so yes.

Also, if racial elements are changing in production, one can also assume that if you don't have the *now* required Amarr Encryption Methods (for example), you will have to train that also.

Which all feeds back into CCPs pocket: everything in Eve takes time, and you're paying money for that time. Gotta take 21 days (3/4 of a month's subs) to train that Amarr Encryption Methods up to L5 (or whatever) to do the same thing you could before? Tough noogie. Gotta take a month to train up all those refining skills to be able to get the same thing you could refining ore before? Tough noogie. IMHO this is yet another kick to the crotch of Industry. Not enough people spending cash on microtransactions or PLEX by exploding ships, so CCP strives to eliminate that portion of the player base.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Ginger Barbarella
#258 - 2014-09-28 23:47:18 UTC
Veinnail wrote:
First, I think the dust has settled and the community is generally happy with the results of Crius.


You say that like we had a choice in the matter.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#259 - 2014-09-30 14:59:44 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
With refining skills, you make /less/ isk. You can still sell for profit.

With a skill that reduces manufacturing costs, you can easily reach the point where, without it, you cannot make /any/ profit without it at 5.

So, following your logic, i guess we all need to switch to the idea that anything we mine is 'free'.

There is a positive aspect to having a barrier of entry. The more knowhow that is needed to build advanced items, means there will be more experience behind the time needed to reach that level. Smarter/more experienced players putting up the sell orders, collectively not tanking their own profit margins just for the sake of 'i want isk now' mentality. If all the new players are able to build all the advanced items, they will typically just tank the margins just because they want to sell their item 'for profit' (minerals are free, right?). Then all your effort to allow everyone to 'make profit' will be negated by the new lower price from all the less experienced players who just want their isk NEOW!

As everyone else has stated, all these changes to TE bonuses mean next to nothing for 98% (i dare to guess) of those of us who build stuff. And contrary to popular belief, it was VERY possible to still make a decent profit margin on the old system with only the lvl 4 skill, i did it all the time. As with the advanced ships requiring lvl 5 skills, it is always possible for a lower level skilled ship to beat them, it just takes a bit more effort to figure out how to overcome any 'disadvantage' the lower SP ship has vs the higher SP ship. It does not mean that we must neuter all the advanced ships/modules to only require lvl 4 (or lvl 1 in some cases).

There is also the "death to required lvl 5 skills" montra that seems prevalent. What then does this mean for all the ship skills? How many ships and modules require lvl 5 skills? How is that any different? You make more money ratting if using a more advanced ship/module, so (following CCP's logic) it seems it should be deemed 'unfair' for all the newer players to be at a disadvantage since they have not invested the weeks/months to get the advanced modules ships, yes?

Is CCP even paying attention anymore, or have they already determined exactly how they want this to go, and all of our 'feedback' is just for token sake?

New Icon SiSi feedback thread that got wholly ignored!

An example of that a good ship icon set looks like.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#260 - 2014-10-05 21:43:15 UTC
Suggest that TE on the BPC should improve invention speed.

Also, ME on the BPC should improve invention chance of success, or reduce required number of datacores (or increase chance that datacores will not be consumed).