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Dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, One Module At A Time

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Author
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#81 - 2014-09-25 18:30:33 UTC
I'd like to add my low rumbling of disapproval for the name changes. Yay balancing, boo name changes.

Additionally, I liked the thesaurus use from an earlier post, I think these might be some better alternatives.

Quote:

Upgraded- Used for named modules where no specialization is possible
Compact- Used for named modules that specialize in reduced fitting cost
Enduring- Used for named modules that specialize in lower cap use or otherwise longer running time
Ample- Used for named modules that specialize in extra capacity
Scoped- Used for named modules that specialize in longer range
Restrained- Used for named modules that specialize in reduced drawbacks


Upgraded - i'm okay with this prefix
Compact - Efficient (same functionality, less use of fittings)
Enduring - Optimized (same fittings, less resource usage for activation)
Ample - Expanded/Extended (like an extended magazine for a gun - same utility, more shots before reload)
Scoped - Charged/Overcharged (it makes me think of having extra powder in a bullet, so longer range)
Restrained - Optimized (again. I think this works for both as they kind of do the same thing)

.... Is there a module that exists that could have a "Enduring" version as well as a "Restrained" version? I can't think of any off the top of my head, so I don't really have a problem using the same prefix to do a similar job under different circumstances.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon

Seismic Stan
Freebooted Junkworks
#82 - 2014-09-25 18:30:35 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Seismic Stan wrote:
I understand the need for this balancing pass and adding usability and diversity is great, but to echo some of the comments already made, it's a shame that the character and flavour has to be expunged from the item names.

For example, missile launcher 'brands' like 'Arbalest', 'Limos', 'Malkuth' et al give a bit of depth for the low, low price of one word. Banishing them entirely seems a shame. Is there no way to retain some element of this character?

Also, 'ample'? Really? Perhaps I'm more of a misogynist than I realised, but that just makes me think of boobs.


How about Voluminous?

Buxom Light Rocket Launchers?
JamesT KirkJr
A New Eden
#83 - 2014-09-25 18:33:13 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
JamesT KirkJr wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Ponder Yonder wrote:
Cristl wrote:


I'd like to second this. I'm worried that someone at CCP has been told to make the names less varied ("easier") because that will help retain new players. Quite the reverse: the fact you needed to look up your equipment made Eve feel like a real, immersive new universe and was originally part of the attraction for me. Don't throw that away.

Leather Jerkin of the Monkey?. Perfect.


CCP, Please retain some of immersive elements. Call it a Gaussian Scoped Railgun, or an XT-3200 Ample Launcher, or whatever. The quirks make Eve interesting.


Names should convey something useful to the user/consumer. What does the 3200 stand for? What does it represent? Does it convey anything useful? If these can't be answered, then it is a horrible product name.

Flavor can still be done through description text.


Please look at the world you live in and tell me wtf marketing was thinking when they named stuff. I mean, like ANYTHING. What does "Antec" communicate to me about a computer case? How about "Asus G750" which is the computer I am using? Camry for a car? seriously, if you can find anything, it's going to be an exception to the rule.

I'm sorry, but your point is baseless irl. It's up to the consumer to know what they're buying, and by looking at the Variations on the ML tab and checking market data, I instantly knew that XT-3200 was the best bang for the isk in HML. I might have also needed to check Requirements, but that's another tab on the same window, and that takes seconds.

The problem was finding where that info lived in the first place. If CCP wants to improve their player experience for everyone, mass DB operations which change names and stats isn't the answer. Fixing your godawful MSWord Menus in Space UI is the answer, because they're the biggest barriers to gameplay there is.

Just count clicks to find info that you expect right at hand sometimes. I dare you. CCP could leave the entire rest of the game alone and increase enjoyment by hundreds of percent just by making a UI that works like a space game UI.


And you proved my point. Those are all horrible names and the marketing/product people that came up with them should be fired. Look at the iPhone, Nexus, and Samsung devices. The names actually mean something, have progression, and can be easily deciphered by the consumer.


Umm if your point was "I can cherrypick examples of what supports my point and just say "I win"", then I suppose I did. But unless I misunderstood you, your whole argument was that names "should do this". My point was that the vast majority of product names don't irl, and that system actually works well enough.

The problem with your argument is that CCP was representing many fictional entities' naming when they wrote the mod names, and that is actually consistent with how naming works IRL. In Eve, that makes for a major immersive element. And as I said above, oddball names aren't actually harmful to the selection process per se, unless there's no OTHER information to go on.

The problem here is that the player can't get the information they need to make a decision based on the size and stats of the mod without a lot of clickery through a deep tree menu, and even then we have more clickery to see stats. The ordinary answer is "improve the UI so players CAN see the info they're looking for", but apparently CCP just wants to run mass DB inserts instead of actually fixing the root problem here.
Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#84 - 2014-09-25 18:38:55 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
I'd like to add my low rumbling of disapproval for the name changes. Yay balancing, boo name changes.

Additionally, I liked the thesaurus use from an earlier post, I think these might be some better alternatives.

Quote:

Upgraded- Used for named modules where no specialization is possible
Compact- Used for named modules that specialize in reduced fitting cost
Enduring- Used for named modules that specialize in lower cap use or otherwise longer running time
Ample- Used for named modules that specialize in extra capacity
Scoped- Used for named modules that specialize in longer range
Restrained- Used for named modules that specialize in reduced drawbacks


Upgraded - i'm okay with this prefix
Compact - Efficient (same functionality, less use of fittings)
Enduring - Optimized (same fittings, less resource usage for activation)
Ample - Expanded/Extended (like an extended magazine for a gun - same utility, more shots before reload)
Scoped - Charged/Overcharged (it makes me think of having extra powder in a bullet, so longer range)
Restrained - Optimized (again. I think this works for both as they kind of do the same thing)

.... Is there a module that exists that could have a "Enduring" version as well as a "Restrained" version? I can't think of any off the top of my head, so I don't really have a problem using the same prefix to do a similar job under different circumstances.



What you say, good sir, is brilliant!
AssandTits
Doomheim
#85 - 2014-09-25 18:42:55 UTC
Uninspiring, bland and quite functionally pointless balance pass so far.

You are removing choice in the name of ... choice? And yet when your game is on the verge of having a fight to the death with TWO major competitors you dumb it down. Other games tried this, it cost them upwards of 50% of their subscriptions. Heed well the story of the NGE.

What is happening here is simple and easy to see, you ****** up invention making it too easy and accessible and you need to drive T2 sales to keep the invention monkeys happy. So you reduce the effectiveness of meta, you run faction/deadspace up in price by making modules that currently are useless usable (therefore making the nullbears on the CSM happy) and **** the newbie.

You also use balance on weapon systems to hide the complete **** up you are making of Interceptors. Like the Drake, you take the easy route instead of admitting your failure (another trait of a failing corporate structure by the way) and dealing with the problem.

Rook Mallard
Aperture Harmonics
#86 - 2014-09-25 18:42:56 UTC
Cristl wrote:
Hawkin Shadowblade wrote:
As much as I do actually like the direction of the changes, you need to seriously reconsider the naming dynamic you have adopted; it's absolutely horrid in that it is reminiscent of the naming policy of other traditional MMOs:
Leather Jerkin of the Monkey?
Okay, it has an agility bonus...
Yes, this is a nice way to show the role of an item at a glance. The problem is it kills immersion in a game like EVE. There is a level of immersion involved with shopping for outfitting your ship. Buying a set of XM-2300 Missile Launchers fits with the atmosphere and general "a world you could live in" vibe you guys have been going for. By giving them role based names, I instantly had WoW flashbacks, and the names sound pretty lame, I'll be honest:
An ample Railgun?
A Scoped Railgun?
A SCOPED Railgun!?
Are you implying any other variation of Railgun is without scope? Again, you should really reconsider this renaming policy. It is not the direction you should be looking.


I'd like to second this. I'm worried that someone at CCP has been told to make the names less varied ("easier") because that will help retain new players. Quite the reverse: the fact you needed to look up your equipment made Eve feel like a real, immersive new universe and was originally part of the attraction for me. Don't throw that away.

Leather Jerkin of the Monkey?. Perfect.



Gaaaah!! Deja-vu times 100!

We went down this road when you messed up the AB and MWD names a while back. It seems that the feedback you got back then was quickly forgotten.

You are now getting rid of trademark names like 'Arbalest', 'Limos', 'Malkuth'. Moreover, the "standarized" names you chose are hideous. Use the description tab for each module to explain what they do and stop screwing up names and killing immersion. What type of dark hard-code sci-fi setting are you turning EVE into when you start naming everything using just 4 words??

Also, Ample? Really?
Krodes Thara
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2014-09-25 18:48:19 UTC
For sure having 5 faction modules with same stats is not confusing and it is good game design...
What about the lore with each faction excelling in something? Are you going to trow all that away?
I'm okay with the rest somehow, but faction modules should have different qualities and uses.

When you get to shields Pithi and Gisti shields will have the same attributes?
Copper Khai
#88 - 2014-09-25 18:55:31 UTC
thanks for all that you do. one small criticism.

Some named modules are not EVE-like. they sound like magic items. Maybe you are doing it for beginners or cross over MMO players. But it stuck out to my ears.

Ample?
Enduring?

not very scientific...


  • Upgraded- ok
  • Compact- ok (nanu, spun, )
  • Enduring- no (efficient, stable, streamlined, normalized, eco, rewired, )
  • Ample- no (flushed, distended, augmented)
  • Scoped- ok
  • Restrained- (insulated, confined)
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2014-09-25 18:56:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Retar Aveymone
Rook Mallard wrote:

We went down this road when you messed up the AB and MWD names a while back. It seems that the feedback you got back then was quickly forgotten.

You are now getting rid of trademark names like 'Arbalest', 'Limos', 'Malkuth'. Moreover, the "standarized" names you chose are hideous. Use the description tab for each module to explain what they do and stop screwing up names and killing immersion. What type of dark hard-code sci-fi setting are you turning EVE into when you start naming everything using just 4 words??

Also, Ample? Really?

I'm going to clue you in on something: the people who get very, very mad when you change a name are a loud, tiny minority. I'm glad CCP remembers that.

The name change is great. Name changes seem to be one of those things that really triggers some hard sperging but they're solidly good: I hate having to look up which one of four random names is the 'good' meta module.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#90 - 2014-09-25 18:56:33 UTC
on the weapon systems .. ammo needs a big revisit .. people use the T2 guns as soon as possible because T1 ammo has very poor choice ...

T2 should be a long train lv5 skills with spec skills/ T2 ammo ..
meta/roles should be viable alternatives using T1/faction ammo providing useful alternatives .. like

- ammo capacity
- cap usage
- lower fittings
- better tracking
etc..

but making T2 just better at everything makes the choices .. non choices 95% of the time

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Lexiana Del'Amore
Nouvelle Rouvenor
#91 - 2014-09-25 19:15:01 UTC
so CCP logic is now meta 0, meta 1, meta 5, meta 6... brilliant.... Shocked
Cae Lara
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2014-09-25 19:15:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cae Lara
I'll have to dissent from everybody crying 'muh immersion'. Clicking through show info->variations->compare->click meta level to literally look at a spreadsheet on every item type is not immersion and is not enjoyable. Great, current players had to go through that nonsense so surely every player should have to from now until the end of time? How about no, but I can dig people asking for some of the flavor text to be retained on item names in addition to clear and consistent markers of what a module is and does.

+1 to finding better adjectives. Ample sounds goofy and scoped doesn't even begin to make sense.
Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
#93 - 2014-09-25 19:16:34 UTC
The 'Restrained' Capacitor Flux Coil I feel has an issue. The 'restrained' should have lower drawbacks, right? but it has the worst drawback in the group, as well as the best T1 bonus! Wouldn't the name Enduring be a bit more.. fitting ? Cool

Drones. Drones are a means to an end. An end to the ruthless Caldari 'progress' machines. An end to the barbaric 'redemption' proposed by the Amarr. What they see as chaos shall be my perfect order, merely beyond their comprehension.

CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#94 - 2014-09-25 19:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Hey guys, it's like 7:30pm and I'm about to go be on TV with CCP Guard and co so I can't do a lot right now, but it's safe to say there's some weirdness with the flux coils.

We may switch the restrained so it's actually LESS drawback rather than more, even though both potentially have applications. The way the attributes are titled and communicated in the dev blog is also kind of strange and I'll try to get that cleaned up tomorrow so it's a bit more clear.

All said and done, there's nothing broken going into the game so bear with me for a day while I get the post cleaned up and maybe the restrained attributes adjusted.

@ccp_rise

Mauvian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2014-09-25 19:28:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mauvian
So.... back to Cap Flux coils again.....


Fozzy you said... "Capacitor Flux coils ... and a second that has a reduced capacitor capacity drawback amount (but similar overall cap recharge)."


Restrained Capacitor Flux Coil 41% 10 -25% 1

Yet the numbers on the restrained Cap Flux Coil instead show more recharge and more draw back.

Were you intending those stats? Or were you intending something more along the lines of....

37% 10 -15% 1?


Either your paragraph describing changes should be edited or the stats should :D



Edit: looks like CCP Rise got in before I did!
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2014-09-25 19:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: TigerXtrm
scimichar wrote:
Still no reason to use T1 over scoped, ample, or T2.


Try cost. Supply and demand will sort it out.

Valterra Craven wrote:
Man, the market sure reacts quickly to changes... oh well not fast enough for this one :(

I do see a couple problems.

1. The meta layout of your re balance makes no sense.
a. Why have meta gaps? (shouldn't the number increase like power does and not skip numbers)
b. Why are basic modules meta 6 and t1 mods are meta 0... basic should be meta 0 and t1 should be meta 1...


Because Legacy Code. Dun dun dun!!!

Good balance pass overall, will be interesting to see how modules are going to be used. What I don't get is two things:

1. Who possibly uses 'Civilian' type modules and why are they even in the game (and why haven't they been taken out during this pass?)

2. The hell are basic modules? Something from the 2003 era? Again, why not just take them out of the game completely if no-one ever uses them?

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#97 - 2014-09-25 19:33:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys, it's like 7:30pm and I'm about to go be on TV with CCP Guard and co so I can't do a lot right now, but it's safe to say there's some weirdness with the flux coils.

We may switch the restrained so it's actually LESS drawback rather than more, even though both potentially have applications. The way the attributes are titled and communicated in the dev blog is also kind of strange and I'll try to get that cleaned up tomorrow so it's a bit more clear.

All said and done, there's nothing broken going into the game so bear with me for a day while I get the post cleaned up and maybe the restrained attributes adjusted.


what about the weapons .. Lml's ... i've made a few posts about T2 weapons etc..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Mauvian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2014-09-25 19:39:16 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
scimichar wrote:
Still no reason to use T1 over scoped, ample, or T2.


Try cost. Supply and demand will sort it out.

Valterra Craven wrote:
Man, the market sure reacts quickly to changes... oh well not fast enough for this one :(

I do see a couple problems.

1. The meta layout of your re balance makes no sense.
a. Why have meta gaps? (shouldn't the number increase like power does and not skip numbers)
b. Why are basic modules meta 6 and t1 mods are meta 0... basic should be meta 0 and t1 should be meta 1...


Because Legacy Code. Dun dun dun!!!

Good balance pass overall, will be interesting to see how modules are going to be used. What I don't get is two things:

1. Who possibly uses 'Civilian' type modules and why are they even in the game (and why haven't they been taken out during this pass?)

2. The hell are basic modules? Something from the 2003 era? Again, why not just take them out of the game completely if no-one ever uses them?


I use Civilian type weapons on my Drone boats for ratting. Gives me something to gain aggro with, that doesn't use ammo.
Cool
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#99 - 2014-09-25 19:45:10 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys, it's like 7:30pm and I'm about to go be on TV with CCP Guard and co so I can't do a lot right now, but it's safe to say there's some weirdness with the flux coils.

We may switch the restrained so it's actually LESS drawback rather than more, even though both potentially have applications. The way the attributes are titled and communicated in the dev blog is also kind of strange and I'll try to get that cleaned up tomorrow so it's a bit more clear.

All said and done, there's nothing broken going into the game so bear with me for a day while I get the post cleaned up and maybe the restrained attributes adjusted.


Thank you for your hard work!
Longdrinks
Zero Fun Allowed
#100 - 2014-09-25 19:46:58 UTC
Looking forward to becoming ninth dan black belt in eft-fu when these hit tranquility. Smile