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The new Hawk and Vengeance are tough but manageable with gimmick fits that exploit T2 resists. However, the Jaguar and Enyo are probably a bit OTT - they've both become a lot faster and the enyo's dps was sufficient to blow through a hawk with a ~370 dps kin/therm tank.The extra speed of the dps NPCs also makes it awkward to chase down the logistics frigates because you get scrammed and webbed more or less immediately on landing so the logi frigates are faster than you are. That means that the best option seems to be to use a stationary ship with enough range to reach the logistics frigates orbiting at ~18 km.

Absolutly, i was about to write the same but your post hit the nail.


Fozzie you are a little mean bastard ;)
You can't kite at all as the Burner more or less immediatly web and scrams you down that has a lot of other consequences. What works is
Brawl variation:
perma ~400 DPS tank vs Enyo
perma ~360 DPS tank vs Jaguar
18km web = faction web
AB

Long range variation:
perma ~400 DPS tank vs Enyo
perma ~360 DPS tank vs Jaguar
Weapons with +18km range (Missile has to be Faction Missile+web or Faction Missile+2xTP otherwise the sig isn't big enough)
18km web = faction web helps a lot
TP helps a lot


I would like to see more variations, make scram kiting and/or full kiting possible would be a good one. I don't know if it possible coding wise but the solution would be:
The DPS Burner doesn't immediately scram+web
The Logi Burner warp in at 20km from the DPS Burner

This NPC behaviour would allow brawl and kiting but won't make kiting superior to brawling.

Against the vengeance a wolf works:

[Wolf, TeamVengeance]
Small Armor Repairer II
Energized EM Membrane II
Overdrive Injector System II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

200mm AutoCannon II
200mm AutoCannon II
Rocket Launcher II
200mm AutoCannon II
200mm AutoCannon II

Small Projectile Ambit Extension II
Small Capacitor Control Circuit II


start with hail + expl rockets and kill the first support, for the second support, switch to barrage, at last, switch to phased plasma + therm rockets to kill the vengeance. You need to catch the first support before it rans out of web range, or you will most likely not have enough damage.

Problem is while you are breaking free you have to tank the incoming DPS, that will be quite diffcult as you need an AB+web and long range weapon fits like Rail, Arti, Light Missile have heavy CPU Problems even with faction/deadspace mods. So the kiting variation will need at least 3x med slots for AB+web+cap booster that itself limits the ship choice. You can't use ships like Wolf, Retri, Harpy or Worm as all of them won't have enough med slots. But you are right it would help a lot if the Burner scram+web would be limited to ingame T2 range.



What works right now:
Burner Hawk and Burner Vengeance are no problem with a more tanky AB+Web+Blaster DD. The 90% web is unbeatable.

Note:
With any Rail or Arti fit you need at least 1x web otherwise you won't hit the Logi Burner. A Missile fit works with 1x web or 2x TP. Your focus has to be your tank as it takes some time to kill the Logi Burner.

Burner Enyo:
-A partial faction/deadspace Blaster AB+web Enyo works okish
-A full faction/deadspace Rail AB+web Enyo works barely
-A full meta/T2 AB+web+Rocket Hawk works barely

-A faction/deadspace Blaster/Rail AB+web Ishkur (has to be tested)
-A faction/deadspace Rail 2xTP Enyo doesn't work.
-Rail Harpy doesn't work, because you can't fit a web at all
-Arti Wolf doesn't work, because either range or DPS sucks
Might work: Faction/deadspace Worm, depending on the NPC target priority, Shield Arti Jaguar with web
Other Frigs won't work well because of the resistance profile you need. (very high Kin/Therm)

Burner Jaguar
-A partial faction/deadspace Scorch web Retribution works okish
-A partial faction/deadspace Light Missile web+TP Vengeance works barely
-A full faction/deadspace Rocket AB+web Hawk works suicidal, because your EM Damage is so low you need about 20x Navy Cap Booster 400 charges while you tank.

-Rail Harpy doesn't work, because you can't fit a web at all
-Arti Wolf doesn't work, because either range or DPS sucks
Might work: Faction/deadspace Worm, depending on the NPC target priority, Shield Arti Jaguar with web
Other Frigs won't work well because of the resistance profile you need. (very high explo, so only armor Amarr and some shield ships)

Beat the Jaguar using this retribution setup with no implants or faction/links:

[Retribution, burn]
Small Armor Repairer II
Heat Sink II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Internal Force Field Array I
Small Armor Repairer II

Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400

Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
[empty high slot]
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Small Focused Pulse Laser II, Scorch S

Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Collision Accelerator II

Scorch to drop the logistics then multifrequency to kill the jag. Finished the fight with one cap booster remaining out of 12 to begin with.

Got the Hawk with a Retribution. T2 pulses with Scorch took out the logis, then managed to get the DPSer with Gleam. Need to use longer range crystals next time.
Permanently tanked with small rep II, cap recharger, power relay, two hardeners, and nano pump rigs.

how to make burners 25x (estimated) more awesome:
- make them loot the wrecks of players
- all loot is added into a loot pool, subsequent burners will drop it till the pool is empty

You're overstating the amount of dps required to break the logis a bit there - I've managed it against the caldari and minmatar burner teams using a T2 fit retribution that does 174 dps cold/200 hot. However, the enyo seems way out of line atm, both in terms of how much its logis can tank and how hard it hits.

Jaguar team: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziHMY3dCZsI
Hawk team: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OK2AdWh3bQ
Vengeance team: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2Ao5Nild0

Now Burner Team spawns at 45km. Is this intentional? It takes more time to kill them after that change because you have to catch logi or wait until they fly to you :(
I liked more when they were at zero.

As for previous burners created spreadsheet (see Burner Team tab):
Burner Team Stats

It seems that the burner supporter just orbit the main target .. and if they are far away from each other, they cannot rep themself. So, you just need to wait and bring enough DPS that they die before they are close enough for reps again. (That was before the last patch)