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Succubus and Phantasm
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#21 - 2014-09-24 18:10:22 UTC
it also caps out very quickly .. even a nos doesn't keep its cap stable .. also the shield recharge rate wasn't fixed .. so it has the worst shield recharge of all ships ... s0

- fix its shield recharge rate too be the same as everyone else's
- buff its cap a lot
- buff its dps and tracking

also nerf web strength ...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
#22 - 2014-09-24 20:08:55 UTC
For phantasm:
Cap booster
Kite more
Dual prop
Stop being bad
Snakes
Vroom vroom

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-09-24 20:32:16 UTC
Never used a phant, only a succubus. Will take you at your word - I assume it is the same as the blood ships where the cruiser makes the frigate look like a small child's toy Smile
Anthar Thebess
#24 - 2014-09-25 06:37:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Idea was good , but the outcome was a bit bad.

The only way for phantasm or succubus to be viable as AB platform is when they use oversized prop mods.
Only then they can compete with MWD fitted ships, and then their advantage is that they still will have some speed if double webbed.

Remember that in order to disable MWD you need to scramble your opponent .
You need to get close , at the same time range of webs, especially on dedicated ships are much , much longer than the scramble range you can get on bonused scrambler.
You don't need to have faction stuff to web effectively , while you got to have proper faction scrambler and maxed skills to shut down MWD at similar range.

Current issue on those ships :
* on class sized AB
- they are to slow to compete with MWD platform
- AB bonus is easily negated by webbing , webbing that become easy at long range using dedicated frigate hulls.
- they don't have any advantage against T1 hulls.

* on oversized AB
- they cap out to fast , even using cap boosters
- even webbed they still maintain enough speed, but at the same time they are flying bricks - something that is not acceptable on faction ships
- tracking is big issue.

Those ships should be redesigned if we ever want to see them in action ( and i really , really want as i love phantasm hull).

Possible solutions :
- way more agility and tracking to make over sized platform viable
- bigger AB bonus , and boost to tracking
- dual bonus missile / lasers . But then lasers will not be used.
- adding some bonus that will make those ships fill some niche role.

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Sigras
Conglomo
#25 - 2014-09-25 10:08:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
The succubus is fine. It beats everything at 10 km, and it can either escape from, or keep anyone at 10 km except for the daredevil.

Why does everyone insist on shield fitting the new sanshas ships? 4 mid slots allow the succubus to fit a full tackle set, AB, and cap injector solving basically all of it's problems. Also, the new phantasm is a fantastic armor HAC being both faster and smaller than the zealot, though I would swap a mid for a low if I could.
Anthar Thebess
#26 - 2014-09-25 10:25:05 UTC
Sigras wrote:
The succubus is fine. It beats everything at 10 km, and it can either escape from, or keep anyone at 10 km except for the daredevil.

Why does everyone insist on shield fitting the new sanshas ships? 4 mid slots allow the succubus to fit a full tackle set, AB, and cap injector solving basically all of it's problems. Also, the new phantasm is a fantastic armor HAC being both faster and smaller than the zealot, though I would swap a mid for a low if I could.


Because that is the base concept of those ships.
I know that you can armor tank them, but even shield versions can have dps issues when you fit mandatory stuff in low .

Like you noticed number of lowslots is bit low for armor ship.

Compare Armor phantasm and armor omen navy.

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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#27 - 2014-09-25 21:24:20 UTC
Ab idea was great, but laser tracking still sucks. A few easy to implement ideas to fix the sansha line:

Bump agility and cap regen up a bit.

Change the 7.5% tracking bonus to 10%

and then you're golden.
Sigras
Conglomo
#28 - 2014-09-25 23:58:24 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Sigras wrote:
The succubus is fine. It beats everything at 10 km, and it can either escape from, or keep anyone at 10 km except for the daredevil.

Why does everyone insist on shield fitting the new sanshas ships? 4 mid slots allow the succubus to fit a full tackle set, AB, and cap injector solving basically all of it's problems. Also, the new phantasm is a fantastic armor HAC being both faster and smaller than the zealot, though I would swap a mid for a low if I could.

Because that is the base concept of those ships.

What gave you the idea that they should be shield tankers? as a counter example, the hurricane has more lows than mids, but it's still usually a shield tanker. Why cant a ship with more mids than lows be an armor tanker?
Anthar Thebess wrote:
I know that you can armor tank them, but even shield versions can have dps issues when you fit mandatory stuff in low .

The succubus does 130 DPS at 10 km with one damage rig... It does interceptor esque damage and is really tough to lock down.

The phantasm does plenty of damage, and can use its mids for tracking computers to give it extra range. It doesnt tank quite as well, but it's way harder to hit.
Anthar Thebess
#29 - 2014-09-26 06:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
What is the main goal of pirate cruiser hulls :
- utility, by filling some role
- roaming.

What is the base rules for roaming fleets?
- ship have to be fast
- agile
- and be useful in the fleet .

Because of this most of the roaming fleets use shield tanked ships , and you have to be consistent in terms of tank, as sometimes people take 1 logistic ship.

Yes people also do some times armor gangs.
In those gangs there is one base rule :
- the slowest ship dies.


Phantasm do not fit any where.
It have no other utility for fleet than DPS , but at the same time :
- it will be slowest cruiser in the fleet.
- cannot fill any additional role
- can be simply outmatched by other hulls, that can bring something positive to gang.

Let just compare :
- Caracal and phantasm. Bit worst ehp for caracal, but on rapids , similar dps but twice the range , and ability to deal with the tackle

Now lets look at the similar price range :
- Cerberus vs phantasm. Betther EHP, 3 times range, more speed ....

Phantasm vs Cynabal ?
Phantasm vs Thorax , vexor navy ....
Phantasm vs Omen, omen navy ( if you want to compare armor and lasers)

In each of those roles this ship is simply outmatched by other hulls sometimes much cheaper ones.
Phantasm do not have any additional useful role so for the roaming gang it is worthless.
You dont fly 200 people fleet , you just take 5-10 people you usually play and go to get some fight.

Every ship matters in this group, and simply :
FC: "Phantasm?! Take something better .... or at least ceptor"

Like i stated i love the hull design , it is unique.

What phantasm needs is not something that look good on paper , but something that really counts in roaming fleets.

As for succubus , have you been in nullsec lately?
What AB bonus for this ship help if you will get insta poped by group of missile interceptors that will be out of range for you.
Still agree that succubus might fill some 1 person hunter role, on some rare ocasions.

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Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#30 - 2014-09-26 06:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dato Koppla
I've flown the Succubus abit, and while it's not terrible, it's definitely not on par with the other pirate frigs (although the Daredevil/Worm/Garmur also need to be looked at). I'd say a Comet is better than a Succubus when considering the price difference.
Sigras
Conglomo
#31 - 2014-09-26 07:24:43 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
What is the main goal of pirate cruiser hulls :
- utility, by filling some role
- roaming.

What is the base rules for roaming fleets?
- ship have to be fast
- agile
- and be useful in the fleet .

Because of this most of the roaming fleets use shield tanked ships , and you have to be consistent in terms of tank, as sometimes people take 1 logistic ship.

Yes people also do some times armor gangs.
In those gangs there is one base rule :
- the slowest ship dies.


Phantasm do not fit any where.
It have no other utility for fleet than DPS , but at the same time :
- it will be slowest cruiser in the fleet.
- cannot fill any additional role
- can be simply outmatched by other hulls, that can bring something positive to gang.

Let just compare :
- Caracal and phantasm. Bit worst ehp for caracal, but on rapids , similar dps but twice the range , and ability to deal with the tackle

Now lets look at the similar price range :
- Cerberus vs phantasm. Betther EHP, 3 times range, more speed ....

Phantasm vs Cynabal ?
Phantasm vs Thorax , vexor navy ....
Phantasm vs Omen, omen navy ( if you want to compare armor and lasers)

In each of those roles this ship is simply outmatched by other hulls sometimes much cheaper ones.
Phantasm do not have any additional useful role so for the roaming gang it is worthless.
You dont fly 200 people fleet , you just take 5-10 people you usually play and go to get some fight.

Every ship matters in this group, and simply :
FC: "Phantasm?! Take something better .... or at least ceptor"

Like i stated i love the hull design , it is unique.

What phantasm needs is not something that look good on paper , but something that really counts in roaming fleets.

As for succubus , have you been in nullsec lately?
What AB bonus for this ship help if you will get insta poped by group of missile interceptors that will be out of range for you.
Still agree that succubus might fill some 1 person hunter role, on some rare ocasions.

I have 2 words for you Armor HAC... Ever hear of it? because your post suggests that you haven't...

It's a fleet that focuses on signature radius tanking meaning they use ABs instead of MWDs. Generally it's a fleet of zealots and guardians The extra mids on the zealots are used for ECM and remote ECCM. In this fleet the phantasm would be the fastest ship with the most utility. Problem?
Anthar Thebess
#32 - 2014-09-26 07:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Yes.
Ahac zealot :
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

T2 ship -> better resistances so all incoming damage can be migrated easily by the logistics.

"Ahac" phantasm:
7.5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret tracking speed
150% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage ( to compensate less turrents )

Yet it have med slots for tracking computers that will help to overcome this.
Still in order to overcome 50% optimal range bonus you need at least 2 med slots , 3 if zealots also use tracking computer.

At the same time
AHAC Omen Navy :
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range

Similar resist like Phantasm, but more lowslots.


If i could not bring zealot to a fleet , omen navy will by my first choice :
- i can tank it more
- it is cheaper
- it have better optimal range base bonus

In ahac fleet , faction/ t1 cruisers will be primary as without T2 resist bonus they cannot migrate damage so well , so they will be the "soft" targets in this fleet.

Will AB bonus help Phantasm?
Base concept of this fleet is " go close " , when i fly my zealot , quite often im at 80% of my maximum speed.

BTW :
When you was last time on fleet ?
Currently no one is using ECCM to help guardians.
We have new skills for sensor strength , and jams where nerfed.
As some weapon systems where also boosted , you can clear all potential jamming ships fast enough that wasting medslot on ECCM is not an option.

I think only Brave use T1 jamming cruisers now.

Damps?
Remote sensors will not help much when enemy have twice as much celestises as you guardians.

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Sigras
Conglomo
#33 - 2014-09-26 09:41:33 UTC
yeah, being 50% faster wont help you mitigate damage at all... Trust me, being smaller and faster than a zealot has plenty of advantages

also, the extra mids are great, they provide your group TONS of utility, I actually remember flying in an AHAC group that used damps to prevent sniper fleets from being a problem.

extra agility would be great, but would almost make them unkillable...
Anthar Thebess
#34 - 2014-09-26 10:29:02 UTC
Fit full tank on celestis, missiles in high , and then ab + damps.

Cheaper , less skills, bonuses from hull.

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Sigras
Conglomo
#35 - 2014-09-27 23:35:52 UTC
also far less damage, speed and tank...

yeah seems like a great idea...
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#36 - 2014-09-28 03:18:19 UTC
My alliance had some great brawls against a dual prop Phantasm this past week. It appears to be a highly effective ship when properly pimped and boosted.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Anthar Thebess
#37 - 2014-09-28 11:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
FT Diomedes wrote:
My alliance had some great brawls against a dual prop Phantasm this past week. It appears to be a highly effective ship when properly pimped and boosted.


Every thing is grate when you pimp it and add gang links.
But when you pimp all pirate cruisers , phantasm is still the worst one.
Try pimping and apply gang links to T1 cruiser and compare it to stuff you can pull out from Phantasm.

I could be wrong , but from my perspective :
T1 < Faction < Pirate / T2

Sigras , one question .
How much EHP and dps have your Phantasm, as maybe im fitting some stuff wrong.
Can you put here this fit?

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Sigras
Conglomo
#38 - 2014-09-29 20:18:47 UTC
My phantasm does 350 DPS with scorch at 23 km with 40,000 EHP and an AB going just over 1000 m/s
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#39 - 2014-09-29 22:12:42 UTC
I use my Phantasm to belt rat in High Sec.

They work well at catching those buggy hauler spawns that end up 300km out from the spawn in point.
Anthar Thebess
#40 - 2014-09-30 06:53:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Sigras wrote:
My phantasm does 350 DPS with scorch at 23 km with 40,000 EHP and an AB going just over 1000 m/s

Can you post fit?
While moving 1k m/s how often you will get targets within those 23km ?

Edit :
Try to fit similar fit on omen.
43k EHP, almost 300dps , and 700m/s

And 30mil ISK

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