These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Wormholes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Hyperion Must Go

Author
Gunner GzR
Timber Wolves
#181 - 2014-09-23 01:05:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunner GzR
Andiedeath wrote:
[quote=Kell Braugh][quote=Kadm][quote=Sith1s Spectre]

I reckon quit with the complaints and get on with the game.


Are you New to the world?
Lets see them make changes to null that totally change play style and activity and See that thread

Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please

Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#182 - 2014-09-23 06:21:47 UTC
Gunner GzR wrote:
Andiedeath wrote:
[quote=Kell Braugh][quote=Kadm][quote=Sith1s Spectre] I reckon quit with the complaints and get on with the game.
Are you New to the world? Lets see them make changes to null that totally change play style and activity and See that thread


Nope not new, been in wormhole space for about 2 years now (living for 18 months). And I do hope null sec gets a similar shake up.

But I love your trolling as you got the responce you wanted.

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public

Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#183 - 2014-09-23 09:28:07 UTC
Gunner GzR wrote:

Lets see them make changes to null that totally change play style and activity and See that thread


Funny, that's exactly what they are working on at the very moment.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
For this upcoming CSM summit we are planning to discuss in detail a set of significant, specific and targeted changes that we hope to release in late 2014, as well as the concepts and prototypes that we are developing for more far-reaching changes in 2015.


And the pre-change threadnought: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372889&find=unread

Change is good. It keeps the game interesting. Adapting is good. It keeps your brains alive.

God Arthie
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#184 - 2014-09-23 10:24:29 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Gunner GzR wrote:

Lets see them make changes to null that totally change play style and activity and See that thread


Funny, that's exactly what they are working on at the very moment.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
For this upcoming CSM summit we are planning to discuss in detail a set of significant, specific and targeted changes that we hope to release in late 2014, as well as the concepts and prototypes that we are developing for more far-reaching changes in 2015.


And the pre-change threadnought: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372889&find=unread

Change is good. It keeps the game interesting. Adapting is good. It keeps your brains alive.



So you wouldn't mind for your house to be burned down (this was the case with the WH's), it will make your life interesting and you would have to adapt(living under a bridge and stuff).

Change just to make a shinny Dev blog post and ignore most of the players (who actually live in WH) is bad.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#185 - 2014-09-23 12:41:01 UTC
God Arthie wrote:

So you wouldn't mind for your house to be burned down (this was the case with the WH's), it will make your life interesting and you would have to adapt(living under a bridge and stuff).

Change just to make a shinny Dev blog post and ignore most of the players (who actually live in WH) is bad.


Except that no "houses were burnt down", it made our lives interesting and we have already adapted and not living under the bridge.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#186 - 2014-09-24 13:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Aiyshimin wrote:
God Arthie wrote:

So you wouldn't mind for your house to be burned down (this was the case with the WH's), it will make your life interesting and you would have to adapt(living under a bridge and stuff).

Change just to make a shinny Dev blog post and ignore most of the players (who actually live in WH) is bad.


Except that no "houses were burnt down", it made our lives interesting and we have already adapted and not living under the bridge.

O
Disease can be described as interesting.
Poverty can be described as interesting.
War can be describes as interesting.

One can adapt to all of these.... Or die.

Eve is a game, one has another choice.
Some are taking it

Note:- none of these are desireable.

The statement you have adapted to living in a less desireable environment and are so accepting of bad design choices gains you no credit and is not something to be proud of, millions are forced to do that every day, but we do not all choose to accept all that is put before us uncritically.

That is what this feedback thread is for, and what other people are using it for.

The point of an expansion is to make the game more desirable, and encourage more to play.

When one fails at this basic goal, questions need to be asked.

We have asked these questions, and have had no meaningful response.
The fact you do not wish to ask these questions does not invalidate this thread.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#187 - 2014-09-24 15:09:45 UTC
You see, Hyperion changes didn't make the environment any less desirable for everyone. I'm not accepting bad design choice because I don't find them bad.

It's ok if you take the other choice, this is a game like you said.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#188 - 2014-09-24 15:16:34 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Aiyshimin wrote:
You see, Hyperion changes didn't make the environment any less desirable for everyone. I'm not accepting bad design choice because I don't find them bad.

It's ok if you take the other choice, this is a game like you said.




Thank you for your permission to be an ex customer or live in KS neither of which is a choice i would choose to make.
However others have and are making that choice, I hope you agree that is not a good thing?

Please let us know how Hyperion is such a success for you as more boring, more dangerous (no matter how little) , more disruptive and less rewarding are not usually set as design goals to encourage new players and generate interest in any activity known to human kind.

Heavens knows, Fozzie would probably appreciate something with a positive spin at this point?

Would you not have had CCP spend their development and design time to actually make wormhole life better?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#189 - 2014-09-24 15:26:48 UTC
I enjoy wormholes because they are dangerous, and I'd be happy to see them even more riskier. Exposure to risk makes mundane tasks more interesting.

Less rewarding? Rib prices are up, PVE makes more ISK now.

Mass-based spawning, persistent signatures, frig whs, rebalance of WH FX and dual statics for C4s were all successes imo, and dev time well spent.

I accept that I'm in the minority on these forums, but since they are a poor indicator of general opinion in most cases, I feel it's important that I speak up on behalf of the thousands that can't stand the trolls and whiners here, and choose to play the game instead.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#190 - 2014-09-24 15:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Aiyshimin wrote:
I enjoy wormholes because they are dangerous, and I'd be happy to see them even more riskier. Exposure to risk makes mundane tasks more interesting.

Less rewarding? Rib prices are up, PVE makes more ISK now.

Mass-based spawning, persistent signatures, frig whs, rebalance of WH FX and dual statics for C4s were all successes imo, and dev time well spent.

I accept that I'm in the minority on these forums, but since they are a poor indicator of general opinion in most cases, I feel it's important that I speak up on behalf of the thousands that can't stand the trolls and whiners here, and choose to play the game instead.




I think that the thousands would have agreed with you on the persistant signatures change, it was very good.

The rest would have been sucsessful if they had been part of an overall rebalance that had corrected some of the serious imbalances that existed regarding rewards VS disruption/risk, lifestyle issues re POS life and some new content had been added after years of waiting.

The wormholes little things thread had many better ideas, needed for so long, instead we got this!

As it Stands, Hyperion, was disruptive, with no benefits granted, and failed to achieve any of the stated or desired goals.

But if you find that a good use of the ONE chance we have had in years for wormholes to get some attention, well Fozzie must be pleased to have at least one satisfied customer.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#191 - 2014-09-24 16:21:44 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


As it Stands, Hyperion, was disruptive, with no benefits granted, and failed to achieve any of the stated or desired goals.



Quote:
The main overarching goals of our proposed changes are:

Create some variety and excitement in wormhole mechanics since most haven’t changed in many years
Provide ways for players to engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life and a ease back on attempts to ‘tame’ and control wormhole mechanics
Address some of the imbalance between wormhole environment effects
Address some of the imbalance between wormhole classes

To reach that goal we are proposing the most significant package of improvements to wormhole space since the release of the Apocrypha expansion in 2009.

These changes consist of:

Wormhole effect rebalance
A second static for Class 4 wormholes
More randomly spawning wormholes
Mass-based spawn distance after wormhole jumps
K162 appearance only on first jump
Loosening of bookmark copying restrictions
Ensuring that scan signatures stay consistent over downtime


I bolded the part most relevant to your incessant whining.

So yes, they wanted to make rolling more PITA and risky, and achieved exactly that.

hth
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#192 - 2014-09-24 18:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Aiyshimin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


As it Stands, Hyperion, was disruptive, with no benefits granted, and failed to achieve any of the stated or desired goals.



Quote:
The main overarching goals of our proposed changes are:

Create some variety and excitement in wormhole mechanics since most haven’t changed in many years
Provide ways for players to engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life and a ease back on attempts to ‘tame’ and control wormhole mechanics
Address some of the imbalance between wormhole environment effects
Address some of the imbalance between wormhole classes

To reach that goal we are proposing the most significant package of improvements to wormhole space since the release of the Apocrypha expansion in 2009.

These changes consist of:

Wormhole effect rebalance
A second static for Class 4 wormholes
More randomly spawning wormholes
Mass-based spawn distance after wormhole jumps
K162 appearance only on first jump
Loosening of bookmark copying restrictions
Ensuring that scan signatures stay consistent over downtime


I bolded the part most relevant to your incessant whining.

So yes, they wanted to make rolling more PITA and risky, and achieved exactly that.

hth


You really have still totally failed in every measure to understand!

The problem is that Hyperion has failed to meet every one of it's stated goals.
Risk has not increased as risk was mitigated against by rational player behaviour.
It has simply made wormhole life more dreary dull and empty, a perfect example of the law of poorly thought out actions and their unintended consequences.

Whilst wormhole effect changes are still playing out, and scan signature consistency is good, Fozzie threw a hand grenade into the room and thought that his redecoration would be an improvement, sorry, it isn't and everyone who disagrees with you is not whining, You may enjoy the imaginary risk, risk only has relevance if you put yourself in the position of encountering it, others have been forced to adapt in a rational manner, to disagreeable poorly designed changes in combination, and that is NOT good for the game.

They may have been done with the best intentions, but if they had actually listened to those who lived in wormhole space, including yourself, they may have got it right first time rather than creating an unholy mess that needed cleaning up.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#193 - 2014-09-24 18:28:00 UTC
I perfectly understand your subjective opinion and it's distance to reality. Read again their goals.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#194 - 2014-09-24 18:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Aiyshimin wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


As it Stands, Hyperion, was disruptive, with no benefits granted, and failed to achieve any of the stated or desired goals.



Quote:
The main overarching goals of our proposed changes are:

Create some variety and excitement in wormhole mechanics since most haven’t changed in many years, the changes are the opposite of exciting
Provide ways for players to engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life and a ease back on attempts to ‘tame’ and control wormhole mechanics nice Buzzwords, but entirely without any meaning. If he truly wants to implement random then he has just signed his own resignation letter , you do not need developers for a game of chance and players do not relish the idea of having all their efforts pissed up against the wall due to pure bad luck and all their efforts counting for absolutely nothing. no sane person will pay a subscription to roll the dice for absolutely no gain and all the losses, all this actually achieved is to make things more boring and dreary, as these activities are avoided like the plague.
Address some of the imbalance between wormhole environment effects, yes, agreed they did this, and we are testing out the various changes, but up to now, disruptive rather than transformative, we will see.
Address some of the imbalance between wormhole classes, didn't really see this, unless included in the above statement.

To reach that goal we are proposing the most significant package of improvements to wormhole space since the release of the Apocrypha expansion in 2009. This has to be black humor or a disconnect with his customer base overall sadly Hyperion has left wormhole space in far worse condition, and needing even more effort to improve it
,
These changes consist of:

Wormhole effect rebalance,,
A second static for Class 4 wormholes
More randomly spawning wormholes
Mass-based spawn distance after wormhole jumps
K162 appearance only on first jump
Loosening of bookmark copying restrictions
Ensuring that scan signatures stay consistent over downtime


I bolded the part most relevant to your incessant whining.
So yes, they wanted to make rolling more PITA and risky, and achieved exactly that.

hth


Firstly Yes Rolling holes is more of a PITA, but more risky? Nope, rational people manage and mitigate risk which means that often they do not get rolled at all, this leads to more dreary, uninteresting boring gametime. Since when has making your product more unpleasant been a good design goal? But you jump caps through all day if you wish, whatever floats your boat.

Ok whilst I am not going to precis over 100 pages in one thread I have commented accordingly in italics.

In a nutshell, translation:- we do not know what to do and are unwilling to listen, so throw some random "blind luck" disruptive changes in and hope for the best.
Response:- Do not expect us to be so easily impressed we know when we hear PR bull.
Most rational people judge by actions, not meaningless spiel that bears no resemblance to them. CCP has forgotten that most of their players are adults to some degree or another and have been manipulated during their lives by experts. Ameteurs are just too obvious for words.

This may sound over harsh, personally I believe the team had good intentions, however, the horrible mass spawn change, and the effects ot the other changes in combination, had effects that were predicted by the community, but for whatever reason were disregarded.
The self congratulatory press releases simply fueled the feelings of many. When coupled with calls for feedback that was clear erudite and incortrivertable, that has proven to be correct, being completely disregarded, well there are not the words..........

This rollout could have been excellent, but unbalanced just too many areas, if this had been adressed with the release, a carrot to go with the stick if you like, then reactions would have been different. But the random "blind luck" mass spawn mechanic was just so horrific, it doomed the release before the dev blog, and NEVER recovered. One may as well try to sell the concept of a fruit machine to a statistician, he will Never believe it is a good idea for his use no matter how you try to dress it up with pretty words and flashing lights.

If you wish to defend the indefensible, carry on, but there will be few who share your take on this.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
#195 - 2014-09-24 23:04:57 UTC
Sigh. We told them before the patch what would happen as a result of the cumulative changes.
We told them what was happening immediately before and immediately after the patch.
We told them what has happened now that it has been live for quite a while.

Every single time,the result was completely the opposite of what CCP says they wanted, which was more activity and "content"

Less content is bad.
Less activity is bad.
Less players is bad.
Less revenue is bad.

There is no good part to be seen, anywhere.

Oh and hi Epicurus. I think I have a salvage cormorant and a no implant alt left in the wormhole.
Feel like coming and blowing it up at the sun for something to do?
It will probably be more exciting than scanning empty chains.
Gunner GzR
Timber Wolves
#196 - 2014-09-25 02:41:33 UTC
Gunner GzR wrote:
Well it Is difficult to get ppl to play eve now with the changes.. Our pilots are tired of scanning wh after wh to find content and find nothing. They have moved on to other games.

We had ssc pay us a visit and bait us. I had 3 ppl on line that was it. I went to the other game channel where there was 15 and no one would log into eve for the fight..

That is just sad

SSC always bring a good fight and i wanted to engage so bad but not with just 3 pilots..So now i am getting bored and i do not even look forward to getting home and logging into eve anymore, As where b4 i did..

Just sad

..thanks ccp for Not Listening to your wh pilots and ruining wh space and the game for the great pilots of w space. Except you hansTwisted


what i said in another thread

Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please

Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#197 - 2014-09-25 12:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffi Flaffi
Same here.

our people more often scan the first exits to lowsec or even HiSec and play there instead of scanning down an empty wormhole chain or doing anoms / gravimetrics with the risk of getting caught by a fleet coming through a fresh wormhole without a notable chance of escaping.

less Player / time online
less activity (we even shut down some POSs already)
less content

nobody quitted / stopped playing Eve so far from those I know better, but some are much closer to do so at the moment, Especially those who found a home in wormholes. With Hyperion it's just most of the time not possible to enjoy that with just 2-3 members where you do not have 4+ incoming wormholes (which is reality most of the time with our 2 statics now). Not everybody has 10 accounts to have enough alt-Scouts for each incoming wormhole to enjoy PvE content. It was OK pre-Hyperion with random wormholes from time to time, but makes no sense at the moment (risk/reward is far off). And possible PvP content is less Overall, even though we scanned down the chains more often and deeper than we did that before Hyperion. It's just so bad at the moment.

As CCP could publish a devblog review about how good burner missions affected New Eden already, but said ZERO about wormholes I strongly assume, that those who confirm to find less content and activity in wh are absolutely right with their assumption and CCPs statistics clearly support that . :( Maybe CCP just hopes that activity will recover on midterm maybe and then they can publish that nothing "changed"? I don't know...
Datu Puki
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2014-09-25 17:36:28 UTC
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
As CCP could publish a devblog review about how good burner missions affected New Eden already, but said ZERO about wormholes I strongly assume, that those who confirm to find less content and activity in wh are absolutely right with their assumption and CCPs statistics clearly support that . :( Maybe CCP just hopes that activity will recover on midterm maybe and then they can publish that nothing "changed"? I don't know...


This best illustrates how CCP got it wrong. highsec gets new PVE content which they'll expand on over the next few patches while w-space got a shake-up no one asked for. I really hope they are watching the numbers and act accordingly



Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#199 - 2014-09-25 17:46:06 UTC
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
nobody quitted / stopped playing Eve so far from those I know better, but some are much closer to do so at the moment, Especially those who found a home in wormholes.


It usually isn´t a quick decision but a slow process. You have less fun or less to do when you log in, so you log in less. When ever you are online there are less corpies with you since they also follow the same logic. Leading to less fun -> less logging in...
Then after a while you look into corpmanagement and see a lot of "over a month"s. Some move their stuff out thinking about coming back when they have more time again or a good gamechange is happening.
And do not forget that many wormholedwellers can here because they tried other parts of the game, mostly sov-0.0 and wanted something else. There is nowhere to go for these people but stop playing. Some will find fun in k-space, but the for most players Whs are the end of the road. Ofc there are big corps/alliances who "outgrew" wormholespace because they can´t find their entertainment here anymore, but the individual player?
The pull for wormholespace has always been the little guys matter, the battlefield is more even, it is tough as nails but worth it and you have to work harder for your content but it also feels way better. Also best community.
Now the pull for new players is? Get good at scanning by doing it in infinitychains for hours every day? Get mad isk (tm) from escalations? Be able to roam different k-space every day?


Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
As CCP could publish a devblog review about how good burner missions affected New Eden already, but said ZERO about wormholes I strongly assume, that those who confirm to find less content and activity in wh are absolutely right with their assumption and CCPs statistics clearly support that . :( Maybe CCP just hopes that activity will recover on midterm maybe and then they can publish that nothing "changed"? I don't know...


Fozzies next devblog will be about module tiericide, so yeah, aren´t we all happy about the new releasecycle where the devs have time to stay on one thing until it is fixed...
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#200 - 2014-09-25 17:50:04 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Shilalasar wrote:
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
nobody quitted / stopped playing Eve so far from those I know better, but some are much closer to do so at the moment, Especially those who found a home in wormholes.


It usually isn´t a quick decision but a slow process. You have less fun or less to do when you log in, so you log in less. When ever you are online there are less corpies with you since they also follow the same logic. Leading to less fun -> less logging in...
Then after a while you look into corpmanagement and see a lot of "over a month"s. Some move their stuff out thinking about coming back when they have more time again or a good gamechange is happening.
And do not forget that many wormholedwellers can here because they tried other parts of the game, mostly sov-0.0 and wanted something else. There is nowhere to go for these people but stop playing. Some will find fun in k-space, but the for most players Whs are the end of the road. Ofc there are big corps/alliances who "outgrew" wormholespace because they can´t find their entertainment here anymore, but the individual player?
The pull for wormholespace has always been the little guys matter, the battlefield is more even, it is tough as nails but worth it and you have to work harder for your content but it also feels way better. Also best community.
Now the pull for new players is? Get good at scanning by doing it in infinitychains for hours every day? Get mad isk (tm) from escalations? Be able to roam different k-space every day?


Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
As CCP could publish a devblog review about how good burner missions affected New Eden already, but said ZERO about wormholes I strongly assume, that those who confirm to find less content and activity in wh are absolutely right with their assumption and CCPs statistics clearly support that . :( Maybe CCP just hopes that activity will recover on midterm maybe and then they can publish that nothing "changed"? I don't know...


Fozzies next devblog will be about module tiericide, so yeah, aren´t we all happy about the new releasecycle where the devs have time to stay on one thing until it is fixed...



It does seem to put more pressure on them to do something quickly and move on to the next, there are certainly advantages apparent with the new process, but only so long as that does not happen. They need some flexibility in the process to be able to rectify and rebalance things quickly. Hopefully their management will allow for that.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE