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Popping Incursions, making a point or greifing.

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Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2014-09-22 16:50:26 UTC
Doc J wrote:
Anya Klibor dear boy, you make it sound like somehow ISN do not ban pilots in comms and chat channels for exactly the same thing. Let me tell you having flown with BOTH communities ISN are just as shallow.

I couldn't care less if ISN sent out emails or what ever else they've been doing, fact is ISN created this and have in the passed forced fleets to stand down with their following of fleets around the focus, thats all game with these mechanics. BUT When you open your eyes and realize that TVP et al. are just doing the same as what ISN have done to other HQ fleets for years, stopping people from earning ISK via HQ's, then perhaps you may have another perspective.


Incorrect. I am saying that TVP is not the white knights they are trying to play the propaganda to appear to be. Good try trying to twist my words around and give false meaning to what I say, even though I made it clear what the substance of my post was about.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Doc J
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#42 - 2014-09-22 21:01:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc J
Anya Klibor wrote:
Doc J wrote:
Anya Klibor dear boy, you make it sound like somehow ISN do not ban pilots in comms and chat channels for exactly the same thing. Let me tell you having flown with BOTH communities ISN are just as shallow.

I couldn't care less if ISN sent out emails or what ever else they've been doing, fact is ISN created this and have in the passed forced fleets to stand down with their following of fleets around the focus, thats all game with these mechanics. BUT When you open your eyes and realize that TVP et al. are just doing the same as what ISN have done to other HQ fleets for years, stopping people from earning ISK via HQ's, then perhaps you may have another perspective.


Incorrect. I am saying that TVP is not the white knights they are trying to play the propaganda to appear to be. Good try trying to twist my words around and give false meaning to what I say, even though I made it clear what the substance of my post was about.


LOL - White knights in eve? Surely not, but dude really get over it. I'm pretty sure if TVP are not the white knights then ISN surely are not either. Like I said long ago, Adapt. It's taken a lot for TVP et al to play incursions this way but they aren't doing anything wrong just playing ISN at their own game.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2014-09-23 00:21:18 UTC
Doc J wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:
Doc J wrote:
Anya Klibor dear boy, you make it sound like somehow ISN do not ban pilots in comms and chat channels for exactly the same thing. Let me tell you having flown with BOTH communities ISN are just as shallow.

I couldn't care less if ISN sent out emails or what ever else they've been doing, fact is ISN created this and have in the passed forced fleets to stand down with their following of fleets around the focus, thats all game with these mechanics. BUT When you open your eyes and realize that TVP et al. are just doing the same as what ISN have done to other HQ fleets for years, stopping people from earning ISK via HQ's, then perhaps you may have another perspective.


Incorrect. I am saying that TVP is not the white knights they are trying to play the propaganda to appear to be. Good try trying to twist my words around and give false meaning to what I say, even though I made it clear what the substance of my post was about.


LOL - White knights in eve? Surely not, but dude really get over it. I'm pretty sure if TVP are not the white knights then ISN surely are not either. Like I said long ago, Adapt. It's taken a lot for TVP et al to play incursions this way but they aren't doing anything wrong just playing ISN at their own game.


I never said ISN are white knights. Once again, trying to put words in my mouth. As I said, TVP has changed their tune to suit their view, and ISN has given them no reason to do it, either. So, TVP are the bad guys at the end of the day.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Doc J
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#44 - 2014-09-23 05:48:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc J
Anya Klibor wrote:
Doc J wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:
Doc J wrote:
Anya Klibor dear boy, you make it sound like somehow ISN do not ban pilots in comms and chat channels for exactly the same thing. Let me tell you having flown with BOTH communities ISN are just as shallow.

I couldn't care less if ISN sent out emails or what ever else they've been doing, fact is ISN created this and have in the passed forced fleets to stand down with their following of fleets around the focus, thats all game with these mechanics. BUT When you open your eyes and realize that TVP et al. are just doing the same as what ISN have done to other HQ fleets for years, stopping people from earning ISK via HQ's, then perhaps you may have another perspective.


Incorrect. I am saying that TVP is not the white knights they are trying to play the propaganda to appear to be. Good try trying to twist my words around and give false meaning to what I say, even though I made it clear what the substance of my post was about.


LOL - White knights in eve? Surely not, but dude really get over it. I'm pretty sure if TVP are not the white knights then ISN surely are not either. Like I said long ago, Adapt. It's taken a lot for TVP et al to play incursions this way but they aren't doing anything wrong just playing ISN at their own game.


I never said ISN are white knights. Once again, trying to put words in my mouth. As I said, TVP has changed their tune to suit their view, and ISN has given them no reason to do it, either. So, TVP are the bad guys at the end of the day.


HAHAHAHA - TVP just playing ISN at their own game....

PS: I never said ISN were white knights I clearly say that if TVP are not the white knights then ISN are neither. Stop playing on my words. If anything you're trying to put words in my mouth.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#45 - 2014-09-23 07:18:35 UTC
Doc J wrote:
realize that TVP et al. are just doing the same as what ISN have done to other HQ fleets for years, stopping people from earning ISK via HQ's


ISN can't run all the HQ sites at the same time. So they can't stop EVERYONE from making ISK in a HQ system, they also certainly aren't stopping their own pilots from making ISK as TVP is doing. Not to mention all the other fleets running other sites in the non-HQ systems. Other HQ fleets are also free to improve their fits and tactics in order to win contested sites against ISN. It's not like ISN is using devhacks and Polaris frigates or something. You keep trying to blame a skilled fleet for the failure of an unskilled one.

ISN contests other HQ fleets in order to increase the income and fun of their own pilots. TVP is reducing the income of their own pilots, of other HQ fleet pilots, of all the AS pilots, all the VG pilots... and trying to take the high ground for it. lol. Good luck getting support for that. Screwing their own pilots and everyone else whos just minding their own business in the smaller sites, all because they suck at running HQs.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#46 - 2014-09-23 07:20:11 UTC
Doc J wrote:

HAHAHAHA - TVP just playing ISN at their own game....


If TVP were playing ISN's game, they would be increasing the income of their pilots, not trashing it.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-09-23 07:57:07 UTC
Doc J wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:
Doc J wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:
Doc J wrote:
Anya Klibor dear boy, you make it sound like somehow ISN do not ban pilots in comms and chat channels for exactly the same thing. Let me tell you having flown with BOTH communities ISN are just as shallow.

I couldn't care less if ISN sent out emails or what ever else they've been doing, fact is ISN created this and have in the passed forced fleets to stand down with their following of fleets around the focus, thats all game with these mechanics. BUT When you open your eyes and realize that TVP et al. are just doing the same as what ISN have done to other HQ fleets for years, stopping people from earning ISK via HQ's, then perhaps you may have another perspective.


Incorrect. I am saying that TVP is not the white knights they are trying to play the propaganda to appear to be. Good try trying to twist my words around and give false meaning to what I say, even though I made it clear what the substance of my post was about.


LOL - White knights in eve? Surely not, but dude really get over it. I'm pretty sure if TVP are not the white knights then ISN surely are not either. Like I said long ago, Adapt. It's taken a lot for TVP et al to play incursions this way but they aren't doing anything wrong just playing ISN at their own game.


I never said ISN are white knights. Once again, trying to put words in my mouth. As I said, TVP has changed their tune to suit their view, and ISN has given them no reason to do it, either. So, TVP are the bad guys at the end of the day.


HAHAHAHA - TVP just playing ISN at their own game....

PS: I never said ISN were white knights I clearly say that if TVP are not the white knights then ISN are neither. Stop playing on my words. If anything you're trying to put words in my mouth.


Your attempt was to make it seem like there was some type of claim presented by myself that ISN are white knights. nowhere have I said this: I have simply stated that TVP's actions have made it clear they are not white knights: they are acting like petulant children and nothing more, and this has been obvious since Day 1 when they began banning people who had reservations about the decisions TVP had already made. On that note: whether ISN does "the exact same thing" or not is immaterial, as ISN is not claiming to take actions that have the "majority" of EVE's Incursion community backing them up (Relevant quote: "Hence fourth; every time ISN seeks to run a HQ fleet, the focus will be closed by the new alliance that is forming within the incursion communities, until such time the toxic minority of ISN realises it is no longer welcome in HQ. ") There is no "majority" when it comes ot this, because everyone outside of TVP and ISN think this is inherently stupid and childish and would rather get back to having fun with friends. And TVP members have openly stated that they view these actions as petulant children and nothing more and do not support it. So, the only "toxic minorities" in this are TVP and ISN. No exceptions.

Warp to Me, DIN, Helix Incursions, etc. have not publicly condoned your tactics. In fact, we have all publicly denounced those actions you have taken that have negatively impacted our ability to have fun. While TVP might be composed largely of the stereotypical MMO player who lives with mommy, not all of us can devote every waking moment to video games like you can, and we have limited time to play. As such, you impact everyone, and the tide, if the threads on this are any indication, is turning against you.

Second, people are aware that ISN can be a bunch of douchebags. No one is denying it. It's no coincidence that the DIN-ISN fiasco and this both have one thing in common: ISN. No one is under any illusion that somehow, ISN is completely spotless. They're a bunch of pricks, and we treat them as such. We have not, however, acted to injure the community-at-large. Do you honestly believe that other groups couldn't do the same thing TVP does, but do it far more efficiently?

TVP has been called out by ISN twice, and TVP took the bait. They then went back to change the policy in order to appear like this was the plan all along. ISN won that front. TVP is acting like children and everyone knows it. Quit while you're behind.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Tarpedo
Incursionista
#48 - 2014-09-23 11:01:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarpedo
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
If TVP were playing ISN's game, they would be increasing the income of their pilots, not trashing it.

People who seek instant gratification rarely succeed in life - they often end up in drug rehabilitation facilities and clinics or in jail - or even in ISN HQ fleet with their recent glorious ~0 isk/hour income. Responsible adults can give up immediate profit for future gains (that's how society work) - so I believe I can wait few weeks docked in 4-4 to see incursions either without ISN HQ fleets or without ISN at all. I believe incursion community without ISN will be much, much better place than before and since all good things don't come cheap I agree to pay relatively high "price" - while 0 isk per hour during 6-12 hours every day isn't exactly "high price", it's more like "free". It would be unwise to reject free things of extremely high value.

Plus there is some fun and drama in the process - and shiptoasting.

p.s. whoever actually need ISK instead of drama and attempts to save doomed 0 isk/hour ISN "fleet" (when it was the last time when they flew to earn ISK instead of provoking TVP? 3 weeks ago?) - you can do 50-90M per hour blitzing missions in Vargur or Tengu or whatever ship you can use with your relatively high skillpoints.
Morpheus Blues
F.I.G.S.
#49 - 2014-09-23 11:23:01 UTC
Tarpedo wrote:
I believe incursion community without ISN will be much, much better place


I beleive that incursions without ISN, TVP and all the other "hollier than thou" wannabies would be a better place :) But this is EVE ! Time to get dirty :)
Rolstra
Moo's Mudpit
#50 - 2014-09-23 12:50:29 UTC
Hilarity ensues;
Before ISN got into HQ's it took TVP up to 40 minutes to finish a site, you could make better money with less risk in a LVL 4. Ship losses were a standard cost of doing sites and more than a few hilarious fleet losses with the only survivor being the TVP FC. The whole concept of using the most skilled pilots and the best possible fits was brought to you by ISN standards.

Now you have communities boasting the best PVE ISK in the game with extremely low risk factors and a guarantee of replacement in case of errors not on your part. All of this was brought to you by trying to keep up with ISN's high standards.

But we all know haters gona hate.

All that is true, but I still miss the days of week long incursions, the occasional troll and roast in local, the casual environment on comms and in community so here we are in the 3 week war on ISK and the only ones winning are the trolls.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#51 - 2014-09-23 13:24:13 UTC
The last time I ran incursions TVP said 'if you contest us and we lose, we pop the mom'.

I doubt much has changed which is why I don't run incursions anymore.

Not today spaghetti.
Doc J
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#52 - 2014-09-23 15:09:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc J
Anya Klibor wrote:


Your attempt was to make it seem like there was some type of claim presented by myself that ISN are white knights. nowhere have I said this: I have simply stated that TVP's actions have made it clear they are not white knights: they are acting like petulant children and nothing more, and this has been obvious since Day 1 when they began banning people who had reservations about the decisions TVP had already made. On that note: whether ISN does "the exact same thing" or not is immaterial, as ISN is not claiming to take actions that have the "majority" of EVE's Incursion community backing them up (Relevant quote: "Hence fourth; every time ISN seeks to run a HQ fleet, the focus will be closed by the new alliance that is forming within the incursion communities, until such time the toxic minority of ISN realises it is no longer welcome in HQ. ") There is no "majority" when it comes ot this, because everyone outside of TVP and ISN think this is inherently stupid and childish and would rather get back to having fun with friends. And TVP members have openly stated that they view these actions as petulant children and nothing more and do not support it. So, the only "toxic minorities" in this are TVP and ISN. No exceptions.

Warp to Me, DIN, Helix Incursions, etc. have not publicly condoned your tactics. In fact, we have all publicly denounced those actions you have taken that have negatively impacted our ability to have fun. While TVP might be composed largely of the stereotypical MMO player who lives with mommy, not all of us can devote every waking moment to video games like you can, and we have limited time to play. As such, you impact everyone, and the tide, if the threads on this are any indication, is turning against you.

Second, people are aware that ISN can be a bunch of douchebags. No one is denying it. It's no coincidence that the DIN-ISN fiasco and this both have one thing in common: ISN. No one is under any illusion that somehow, ISN is completely spotless. They're a bunch of pricks, and we treat them as such. We have not, however, acted to injure the community-at-large. Do you honestly believe that other groups couldn't do the same thing TVP does, but do it far more efficiently?

TVP has been called out by ISN twice, and TVP took the bait. They then went back to change the policy in order to appear like this was the plan all along. ISN won that front. TVP is acting like children and everyone knows it. Quit while you're behind.


You'd make a good career in politics, your spinning of my words is awesome I have to give you that. I will yet again come back to the point I made long ago, this is Eve, ISN can do one of two things, which are the same things they enforced on TVP and other communities that tried to challenge them 18 months ago, adapt or die.

You argue about TVP being some sort of tirent stopping other communities from running incursions, again, this is eve. 18 months ago TVP were more about bringing people into running incursions, this was sadly stopped by ISN because of their "high standards". Like I said, Karma, when the game mechanics allow such actions they are not doing anything wrong. Tell me where it says that running incursions must be run by all? I think you will find it doesn't.

PS: Against me? I fly with all communities what ever is available I couldn't care less if I its ISN, DIN, TVP, Helix I have no loyalty. One thing is for sure the tides are not turning. Keep spinning words and go for a career in politics.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#53 - 2014-09-23 15:31:19 UTC
Seriously? This is all being done because ISN looted TVPs wrecks, and wouldn't give it back (which is within the gameplay mechanics). TVP lost their ships/fleet during a DDoS attack. TVP didn't like this, so now you have the current meta of MOM popping.

TL;DR: TVP butthurt over lost loot.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2014-09-23 15:32:39 UTC
Rolstra wrote:
Hilarity ensues;
Before ISN got into HQ's it took TVP up to 40 minutes to finish a site, you could make better money with less risk in a LVL 4. Ship losses were a standard cost of doing sites and more than a few hilarious fleet losses with the only survivor being the TVP FC. The whole concept of using the most skilled pilots and the best possible fits was brought to you by ISN standards.

Now you have communities boasting the best PVE ISK in the game with extremely low risk factors and a guarantee of replacement in case of errors not on your part. All of this was brought to you by trying to keep up with ISN's high standards.

But we all know haters gona hate.

All that is true, but I still miss the days of week long incursions, the occasional troll and roast in local, the casual environment on comms and in community so here we are in the 3 week war on ISK and the only ones winning are the trolls.


ISN also had a habit of sponging off of other communities' work. It wasn't uncommon for ISN to send new players to Road-Kill or the others in order to groom them, then take them back. In fact, it was so common that many communities told you all to **** off when it came to that, but you did it anyways. Unfortunately, many of us have decent ISK/hour rates, and it was no thanks to ISN. Sure, you might have the most ISK/hour, but that also comes with the price of having someone screaming if there's split DPS, or the FC having a conniption if he's even one second behind schedule.

If I wanted that, I'd join Pandemic Legion and lose a Revenant.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Doc J
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#55 - 2014-09-23 15:34:15 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Seriously? This is all being done because ISN looted TVPs wrecks, and wouldn't give it back (which is within the gameplay mechanics). TVP lost their ships/fleet during a DDoS attack. TVP didn't like this, so now you have the current meta of MOM popping.

TL;DR: TVP butthurt over lost loot.


More to do with the constant targeting of HQ fleets and the looting of wrecks by Noble i guess was the final straw.

Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#56 - 2014-09-23 16:16:21 UTC
Doc J wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Seriously? This is all being done because ISN looted TVPs wrecks, and wouldn't give it back (which is within the gameplay mechanics). TVP lost their ships/fleet during a DDoS attack. TVP didn't like this, so now you have the current meta of MOM popping.

TL;DR: TVP butthurt over lost loot.


More to do with the constant targeting of HQ fleets and the looting of wrecks by Noble i guess was the final straw.



Huh? Do you mean actual targeting? Locking up the opposing fleet? If so, then that is not a big deal, because if they actually fire on someone who isn't suspect or a legal target; then they will get Concordokken. Now if TVP pilots are stupid and have auto-target on, and accidentally firing on ISN ships; then I have to say that is hilarious!

Now if you mean ISN is continuously contesting sites, then that is valid gameplay and well within the mechanics. If TVP can't handle that, then I guess their only recourse is to either pop the MOM or maybe move down to Assaults or Vanguards.
Doc J
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#57 - 2014-09-23 16:35:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc J
Estella Osoka wrote:
Doc J wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Seriously? This is all being done because ISN looted TVPs wrecks, and wouldn't give it back (which is within the gameplay mechanics). TVP lost their ships/fleet during a DDoS attack. TVP didn't like this, so now you have the current meta of MOM popping.

TL;DR: TVP butthurt over lost loot.


More to do with the constant targeting of HQ fleets and the looting of wrecks by Noble i guess was the final straw.



Huh? Do you mean actual targeting? Locking up the opposing fleet? If so, then that is not a big deal, because if they actually fire on someone who isn't suspect or a legal target; then they will get Concordokken. Now if TVP pilots are stupid and have auto-target on, and accidentally firing on ISN ships; then I have to say that is hilarious!

Now if you mean ISN is continuously contesting sites, then that is valid gameplay and well within the mechanics. If TVP can't handle that, then I guess their only recourse is to either pop the MOM or maybe move down to Assaults or Vanguards.


I guess they chose to pop the MOM. again valid gameplay!

C'mon, you can't have one rule for when it suits you when you are contesting HQ fleets and stopping others from earning ISK and then complain when the MOM is popped.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#58 - 2014-09-23 16:48:44 UTC
Doc J wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Doc J wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Seriously? This is all being done because ISN looted TVPs wrecks, and wouldn't give it back (which is within the gameplay mechanics). TVP lost their ships/fleet during a DDoS attack. TVP didn't like this, so now you have the current meta of MOM popping.

TL;DR: TVP butthurt over lost loot.


More to do with the constant targeting of HQ fleets and the looting of wrecks by Noble i guess was the final straw.



Huh? Do you mean actual targeting? Locking up the opposing fleet? If so, then that is not a big deal, because if they actually fire on someone who isn't suspect or a legal target; then they will get Concordokken. Now if TVP pilots are stupid and have auto-target on, and accidentally firing on ISN ships; then I have to say that is hilarious!

Now if you mean ISN is continuously contesting sites, then that is valid gameplay and well within the mechanics. If TVP can't handle that, then I guess their only recourse is to either pop the MOM or maybe move down to Assaults or Vanguards.


I guess they chose to pop the MOM. again valid gameplay!

C'mon, you can't have one rule for when it suits you when you are contesting HQ fleets and stopping others from earning ISK and then complain when the MOM is popped.


Yeah, but there are other options that will allow people to farm iskies via Incursions without popping the MOM. Both sides could entertain those options. If they are not, then in my view they are both being d-bags. It has just boiled down into a pissing match.
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#59 - 2014-09-24 01:24:29 UTC
DIN told everyone in public at the last big meeting on the TVP coms, that we fully support TVP actions.

And i hate to say it, but neither TVP or DIN are the creators of the idea to kill a mom to prevent a hated fleet from flying.
In fact ISN did it.
A year ago...
ISN contested a lot, so DIN and TVP formed a specialfleet. Aprox. 110 pilots joined it.
This jointventure successfully prevented ISN from making money for nearly two hours.

After realizing that they couldnt do anything about it, ISN headed for the kundalini and killed it.
Famous quote from Kodavor: no isk for isn, no isk for everyone.

The stolen loot was only the drop of water that turned the situation into an avalanche.

Facts: ISN pilots are able to make money only in vg or assaults. In HQ max 5 sites ( depends on the bookmarksituation ).
ISN pilots can easily stop the mom killing by joining other fleets besides ISN.
There are a lot of other communities flying.
Choose wise...
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#60 - 2014-09-24 15:29:00 UTC
Charadrass wrote:
DIN told everyone in public at the last big meeting on the TVP coms, that we fully support TVP actions.

And i hate to say it, but neither TVP or DIN are the creators of the idea to kill a mom to prevent a hated fleet from flying.
In fact ISN did it.
A year ago...
ISN contested a lot, so DIN and TVP formed a specialfleet. Aprox. 110 pilots joined it.
This jointventure successfully prevented ISN from making money for nearly two hours.

After realizing that they couldnt do anything about it, ISN headed for the kundalini and killed it.
Famous quote from Kodavor: no isk for isn, no isk for everyone.

The stolen loot was only the drop of water that turned the situation into an avalanche.

Facts: ISN pilots are able to make money only in vg or assaults. In HQ max 5 sites ( depends on the bookmarksituation ).
ISN pilots can easily stop the mom killing by joining other fleets besides ISN.
There are a lot of other communities flying.
Choose wise...


1. Who says ISN wants the MOM popping to stop?
2. The only affected pilots in this situation are those who exclusively fly Incursions.
3. What is currently being done is exactly how Incursions were supposed to be done. Farming Incursions is the aberration. Of course the long term solution to stop farming, is to make the hisec Incursions function exactly as lowsec/nullsec Incursions do and have Sansha rats on the gates. Then you will see a totally different meta when people get popped just trying to get to a system for a fleet.
4. Stealing loot is age old EVE tradition. People have been doing it for years.